Hey Pazioites!
Let's start this off on a clear high note!
The purpose of this thread is discuss a rocker of a class. Love em or hate em, almost no one is indifferent to our crescendoing friend. The Bard.
So please share you like and dislikes, pluses and minuses and let us know what you think.
I have my opinion of course but want to see what you other cats like. So let's ride this one all the way to the ground, shall we?
For a minute, I thought this was about MY bard. He rocks a +1 adamantine cruel battleaxe.
Flags, spells, songs, it's buffs all the way down.
Buffs are really good, so Bards are really good. I don't mind having to perform because the options include wardrumming and oration. It's nice to have so many skills and be so good at them. They can be archers or reach fighters or scimitar blenders. It's always useful to have a Bard, and you actually could make a party of just Bards if you felt like it. A vanilla Bard for Competence bonuses to all, an Archaeologist Bard for Luck bonuses to himself, a Court Bard for debuffs on the enemy, and an Arcane Duelist Bard giving enhancement bonuses to himself, and later the whole party.
It's just a damn good class.
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Pathfinder bards are outstanding. Their archetypes can be even more so.
I still like Skald better, both from an optimization and flavor standpoint.
It depends upon the group.
Bards are always welcome in any group, but skalds are more dependent upon the other characters in the group you're in. (I would never make a PFS skald for that reason.)
Skalds do not combo well with dex builds or (strangely enough) barbarians. They're also of rather limited benefit to archers.
What i like aboud the Bard?
They can be almost as metal as the Skald!
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Pathfinder bards are outstanding. Their archetypes can be even more so.
I still like Skald better, both from an optimization and flavor standpoint.
It depends upon the group.
Bards are always welcome in any group, but skalds are more dependent upon the other characters in the group you're in. (I would never make a PFS skald for that reason.)
Skalds do not combo well with dex builds or (strangely enough) barbarians. They're also of rather limited benefit to archers.
This is actually why I haaaate Skalds; it's such a great class on paper but I'm pretty sure I have never played in a party composition where everyone would benefit from Raging Song. I think it's kind of ridiculous how summoning casters get more benefit out of Raging Song than Barbarians do.
Bards, on the other hand, work regardless of who you have in your party. It's such a versatile chassis that there are likely more concepts that you can fulfill with a Bard than not.
Bard is my absolute fav class (and Sound Striker my fav archetype).
The only thing Skald's have that Bard's are envious of is Spell Kenning. If you really think about it, you will wonder (as I do all the time!) how should-be-illiterate, hillbilly/redneck skalds are cosmopolitan and educated enough to grab Cleric and Wizard spells any time they like as often as 3 times/day. Just wrong. Should have been the Bard's shtick (and there is a Masterpiece than can remedy some of that--PC: Arcane Anthology, called Arrowsong's Lament) not the backwoods bumpkin Skald.
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Not sure why you think Skalds are somehow bumpkins or should be illiterate. Skalds were actually the ones writing some of the oldest written records of their area.
Not sure why you think Skalds are somehow bumpkins or should be illiterate. Skalds were actually the ones writing some of the oldest written records of their area.
You also have nīþs which were the most scathing satirists out there.
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Bards are up there with a few classes as being one of the most balanced, best designed classes in the game. It's fantastic. You can build a bard for just about any purpose, and a party comprised entirely of bards is actually kinda unique amongst classes in that you can actually build a workable party where everyone has COMPLETELY different roles within the same class chassis.
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Skalds do not combo well with dex builds or (strangely enough) barbarians. They're also of rather limited benefit to archers.They don't hurt them either. Barbarian is literally the only class that doesn't get some benefit from skald.
The rare Dex build? Bonus Con and Will saves would never hurt.
Archers may get the most benefit from the song, since an adaptive longbow is crazy easy to get.
Warpriests and Magi are openly hostile to the idea of Raging Song. They both want to cast in the same turn they attack, making accepting the song a no-go.
Not sure why you think Skalds are somehow bumpkins or should be illiterate. Skalds were actually the ones writing some of the oldest written records of their area.
Because part of the class was based off the Barbarian...often thought of as illiterate (and were ruled such in 3.5, I believe).
Also, I see Bards as having much more access to libraries and fellowship with the arcane and divine. As I said, they are much more cosmopolitan--more widely known, widely traveled and educated.
Warpriests and Magi are openly hostile to the idea of Raging Song. They both want to cast in the same turn they attack, making accepting the song a no-go.Skalds do not combo well with dex builds or (strangely enough) barbarians. They're also of rather limited benefit to archers.They don't hurt them either. Barbarian is literally the only class that doesn't get some benefit from skald.
The rare Dex build? Bonus Con and Will saves would never hurt.
Archers may get the most benefit from the song, since an adaptive longbow is crazy easy to get.
Spell Warriors are pretty nice in that condition, though I hate losing Spell Kenning. Urban Skald also could, depending on the read, allow for casting too.
Not sure why you think Skalds are somehow bumpkins or should be illiterate. Skalds were actually the ones writing some of the oldest written records of their area.Because part of the class was based off the Barbarian...often thought of as illiterate (and were ruled such in 3.5, I believe).
Also, I see Bards as having much more access to libraries and fellowship with the arcane and divine. As I said, they are much more cosmopolitan--more widely known, widely traveled and educated.
A Bard's cosmopolitan nature results in better skills rather than better magic, whereas a Skald is more adept at filling the role of a priest or mage, since they are the keepers of their community's history, rites, and traditions, not just tales and songs.
Spell Warriors are pretty nice in that condition, though I hate losing Spell Kenning. Urban Skald also could, depending on the read, allow for casting too.Warpriests and Magi are openly hostile to the idea of Raging Song. They both want to cast in the same turn they attack, making accepting the song a no-go.Skalds do not combo well with dex builds or (strangely enough) barbarians. They're also of rather limited benefit to archers.They don't hurt them either. Barbarian is literally the only class that doesn't get some benefit from skald.
The rare Dex build? Bonus Con and Will saves would never hurt.
Archers may get the most benefit from the song, since an adaptive longbow is crazy easy to get.
I don't tend to include Spell Warriors in my criticisms of the Skald because the archetype fixes most of the usefulness issues with the class (though losing Spell Kenning is huge as you said). You can reliably bring a Spell Warrior into the majority of groups; it takes a fairly odd setup for them to not be as useful as a comparable Bard (like if your main DPR is focusing on natural attacks).
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Skalds do not combo well with dex builds or (strangely enough) barbarians. They're also of rather limited benefit to archers.They don't hurt them either. Barbarian is literally the only class that doesn't get some benefit from skald.
The rare Dex build? Bonus Con and Will saves would never hurt.
Archers may get the most benefit from the song, since an adaptive longbow is crazy easy to get.
Dex builds might enjoy the Con/Will saves - but the AC penalty sucks. Overall it's a wash - sometimes good and sometimes bad depending upon the situation. Hence why they don't combo well. (I didn't say that they didn't affect them.) Plus the magus/warpriest issues as mentioned above.
The archer also gets some bonus damage (starting at level 5 or so when they have an adaptive bow) but that is of rather limited benefit relative to what bards give them.
The thing is - if one or more members of the group have little to no benefit from the skald's song but DO gain from the bard's, then the party would be better off with a bard.
How to be a badass dwarven bard.
Step 1, take one level of fighter at level 2.
Step 2, obtain mithral full plate.
Step 3, charge a rakshasa at character level 7 with your axe and pin it down while constantly doing bits of chip damage despite the fact that the enemy has DR 15.
Step 4, Obtain the holy halberd the guy had and WRECK FACE.
Seriously, this guy is the most badass member in that party and can easily do over 100 damage in a single round thanks to full attacks. That's on top of the buffs he's throwing out and his high HP.
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Yeah, but the Skald is so much stronger because he is a Skald so it's more than just a wash.
Why? I don't see it. Bards can make for very solid combatants. The only combat advantages I see for the Skald are martial weapons and medium armor - neither of which is needed for a standard melee bard dex build. The longbow proficiency would be nice for an archery bard - but Skalds suck at archery anyway.
I'll take the pouncing and flying death machine with fast healing.
Remember, you're only allowed one of those totems in your career. You get pounce or flying with your rage song.
I'll take the pouncing and flying death machine with fast healing.Remember, you're only allowed one of those totems in your career. You get pounce or flying with your rage song.
Elemental Blood provides flight without taking your totem slot now.
...Right, it's been awhile since I looked at the Rage Power list and I forgot that the Barbarian was the one martial class Paizo allowed to have nice things.
So what parts of bard does everyone feel needs help?
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So what parts of bard does everyone feel needs help?
Disclaimer: I love Bards, they are the best.
I love Versatile Performance, but I don't like how it scales. I either get arbitrarily better at 10 skills at odd instances in my career (I learnt to sing in downtime, and now I'm a diplomat! Previously I was just a nice person...) or I waste skill ranks and need to retrain.
Inspire Courage is almost always a better option than Inspire Greatness. It's better if you can have multiple performances up, though (although the most important part - the bonus to attack rolls - doesn't stack with Inspire Courage).
Likewise, Inspire Heroics has some potential, but suffers from a disconnect between flavour and mechanics. I find it's more useful when you *know* the target will be making a saving throw - diseases, poison, recovering from level drain and so forth - not in situations where heroism is necessary (ie combat).
It also scales weirdly, which just irritates me - why bother saying it increases once every three bard levels above 15th, when that just means: at 18th level you may target an additional creature with Inspire Heroics?
Mass Suggestion is great, but a little underwhelming at 18th level.
Deadly Performance should really be able to be started as a performance, or at least not a full round action.
That said, ^ is all nitpicking. The class is still great, and works fine without changing these.
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I'm also at a loss as to something the Bard needs help on. Effective in teams, but also self-sufficient. Powerful, but not OP. Plenty of archetypes, lots of different party roles, good "exclusive" (Bard/Skald/Mesmerist) spells and plenty of magic item/feat support.
More masterpieces would be nice, but we already have some great ones like Pageant of the Peacock for bluffing and knowledges or House of the Imaginary Walls for building bridges/stairs.
Bards don't need anything anymore, really.
The Bard is arguably the most well executed class in the Core Rulebook... well, probably not "arguably" since every other CRB class has serious issues in either being too strong or too weak in some way.
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The Pathfinder Bard is an incredibly versatile class that pulls its weight in almost every party. Well, as long as their player isn’t an idiot who hasn’t read the rules and assumes that you have to play a two-handed instrument when Inspiring Courage (Proper Bards sing in combat, Idiot Bards play the Accordion).
The big problem with Bards is that many players have not read the rules properly, so they are stuck in 3.0 mode and mistakenly believe that Inspire Courage costs a standard action to maintain rather than a free action.
Versatile Performance is badly written because after it kicks in a player is left with useless skill ranks in the skills which it replaces. Consequently a Bard who is going to take Versatile Performance for a skill later on will typically put nothing into that skill even though it’s the sort of skill that they would put ranks into (e.g. Bluff, Diplomacy). Our group lets Bards reassign skill ranks when they are superseded by Versatile Performance.
Inspire Greatness is pretty useless because the +2 to hit doesn’t stack with Inspire Courage which gives its bonus to the entire party rather than one character.
Inspire Heroics is a bit more useful, but I’ve rarely used it because Inspire Courage boosts the entire party (and to hit and damage bonuses are generally better to have).
The Sound Striker archetype is devastating because RAW you can target one creature with all 6 to 10 of the notes created by Weird Words with each note doing D8 + CHA damage (Fortitude save halves). So a 10th level Bard with 22 Charisma can potentially do 10D8+60 damage to one target (if all ten ranged touch attacks succeed) for a standard action and one Bardic performance. To quote Commander Ivanova of Babylon 5: "Boom. Boom boom boom. Boom boom. Boom! Have a nice day"
Masterpieces. If you can use them at the same time as a Bardic performance then some of them are quite useful. If you can’t, as some people think, then they are mostly a waste of time.
As to the buffs, when playing a Bard I have several index cards upon which I write the effects of buffs. Then when I sing to produce Inspire Courage and cast “Good Hope” I put the respective cards on the table, the other players see that these effects are in play and make a note of them. After all, the the typical 7th level Bard can give the entire party +4 to hit and damage (and +2 to almost every other roll that you make) in the first round of combat.
Invariably that’s what my Bards do in round one; in round two they then wade into melee combat (Longsword, Mithril Chain Shirt, Heavy Shield).
Bard players have to bear in mind that much of their damage is done vicariously; through boosting other party members (and their Summoned creatures) in combat.
However, the Pathfinder Bard doesn’t come up to the sheer awesomeness of the 3.5 Bard with all the splatbooks (Words of Creation, Dragonfire Inspiration, Snowflake Wardance). A few years ago my 3.5 Bard guest starred in a campaign, as a one-off, where the players and GM all thought that Bards were rubbish. They soon changed their mind after I gave everyone +12 to hit and +12D6 electrical damage in the first fight.
The bard has long been one of my favorite classes - one of my favorite characters from 3.5 was a half-orc (technically only quarter-orc) multiclass bard/barbarian, so needless to say, Skald was an incredibly exciting addition for me.
I think my favorite thing about bard is how well they work as a DMPC. I'd always heard horror stories about DMPC's, but I realized early on that the best DMPC is one who only works to fill in the missing pieces for the players and tries to make them MORE awesome, and no class accomplishes that like the bard.
Sound Striker's Weirdwords have been FAQ'd...for nearly a year:
Weird Words (Su): At 6th level the bard can start a performance that is always a standard action to speak up to one word per 4 bard levels laden with sonic energy. Each word deals 4d6 points of sonic damage as a ranged touch attack with a range of 30 feet. The bard adds his charisma modifier on damage rolls with weird words. Multiple words that strike the same target stack into a single powerful attack, applying energy resistance and bonuses on damage rolls only once. The bard can target all words at the same or different targets, but he unleashes all words simultaneously. Each word costs 1 round of bardic performance. This performance replaces suggestion.
It is simpler, better damage type, but more costly in performance.
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I think my favorite thing about bard is how well they work as a DMPC. I'd always heard horror stories about DMPC's, but I realized early on that the best DMPC is one who only works to fill in the missing pieces for the players and tries to make them MORE awesome, and no class accomplishes that like the bard.
The bad thing is that bard is usually the face of the group - and you don't want a DMPC to be the face.
Versatile Performance is badly written because after it kicks in a player is left with useless skill ranks in the skills which it replaces. Consequently a Bard who is going to take Versatile Performance for a skill later on will typically put nothing into that skill even though it’s the sort of skill that they would put ranks into (e.g. Bluff, Diplomacy). Our group lets Bards reassign skill ranks when they are superseded by Versatile Performance.
I think the intention is for you to be allowed to retrain the skills Versatile Performance replaces; I say this because the Bard VMC and Versatile Training (the new Fighter feature that mirrors VP) both explicitly allow free retraining when you get the skill bonus.
I think my favorite thing about bard is how well they work as a DMPC. I'd always heard horror stories about DMPC's, but I realized early on that the best DMPC is one who only works to fill in the missing pieces for the players and tries to make them MORE awesome, and no class accomplishes that like the bard.The bad thing is that bard is usually the face of the group - and you don't want a DMPC to be the face.
That's true. It definitely works best if there's another character to play the face, with the bard helping from the sidelines with aid another checks.
On the two occasions I've done so, one of the bards was a sycophant who believed the PCs were amazing heroes and would never have DARED to presume to speak for them. The other was my aforementioned bard/barbarian who was a great team player, but was a bit brash and reckless, and wasn't the type of person the party *wanted* to be their face, so there are ways around it.
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Versatile Performance is badly written because after it kicks in a player is left with useless skill ranks in the skills which it replaces. Consequently a Bard who is going to take Versatile Performance for a skill later on will typically put nothing into that skill even though it’s the sort of skill that they would put ranks into (e.g. Bluff, Diplomacy). Our group lets Bards reassign skill ranks when they are superseded by Versatile Performance.I think the intention is for you to be allowed to retrain the skills Versatile Performance replaces; I say this because the Bard VMC and Versatile Training (the new Fighter feature that mirrors VP) both explicitly allow free retraining when you get the skill bonus.
James Jacobs also does this, and while not a general rules authority, did write much of the Pathfinder Bard Class. so...yeah, this is clearly the intent. House-rule in your home games today!