FiddlersGreen wrote: Cryn, no one is telling you you need to tank INT or CHA. My recommended alternate stat arrays did not dump those stats. But you have been advised multiple times on this thread that it is a bad idea to dump AC and your response has effectively been 'this is the way I want to do things'. Which is perfectly fine, if that is how you want to build your character. But I really don't think this can qualify as a 'guide'. It is a 'build'. I was responding to people whining incessantly about the dex when I said its how I do it. I understand what they are advising. I also understand literally the only reasons given are 'you're not going to be able to tank damage.' Which has never been the point. I have run this build, and countless other low-ac high-hp characters through several modules and homebrews. I rarely have an issue staying alive. When I do, its because the entire party is being overwhelmed. The one, most frequent complaint, is that I'm inefficient with my party's healing. Meanwhile, I doubt any of the players complaining have ever tried to tank AC. But somehow they have more expertise about it than me. I haven't had the opportunity to post about gear, and was mostly trying to see if there was any interest. Clearly, there isn't. So just consider the guide a failure.
Overall, if you invest the bulk of your resources into AC, HP and saves, I think you must have a very nice GM when he lets it work. Unless you managed to have all of that, and combat reflexes, and some ability to consistently trip and keep them pinned down, nothing stops him from just swarming your wizard. Except maybe the bulky, high-damage monk pouncing from one of his minions to the next, killing them turn by turn. But what do I know, right? You guys can build your monks by the conventions of other classes all you like.
Responding aggressively will not always:
a) make you correct
or
b) make you very popular.
My opinion: feats aren't "spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons". They are feats.
I also disagree with the idea that this is a guide. It isn't a guide, it is a build, and a build that most people will (based on all of the feedback so far!) find find to be questionable. If YOUR GM in YOUR home game finds your arguments valid - and rules in your favor - more power to ya.
Your system mastery doesn't appear to be very high. Bad bird's build on the previous page can get to AC28 pretty easily at level 10 without sacrificing much of anything offensively from your build. Your build without barkskin and dodge clocks in at AC19 with the same equipment.
You say AC doesn't matter, but in the giant example, DPR vs AC28 is 34. DPR vs AC19 is 83. His build sacrifices nothing offensively from your build and has a damage reduction of 68%.
Yeah, after Barkskin, I can consistently have all my UnMonks reach 22+level AC, which means about 40% chance to be hit without external help. That matters.
CryntheCrow wrote: Qaianna wrote: Given the blazing row that's going on here, I wouldn't rely on Dragon Ferocity to grant the better Power Attack bonus. I wouldn't even think of trying to push it myself. With this much table variance you're outside of what you can really put in a 'guide'. Given that, Power Attack's still a good feat to have in and of itself, and I can see the joys Dragon Ferocity can give once that Strength gets up there.
I'm actually now wondering if going Dual Talent is worth it in the really long run. The Con benefit is great, but ... again, that -1 Dex mod is just PAINFUL to see on any character. Especially an unarmoured frontliner. And you haven't answered what I was asking earlier about those times enemies are unsporting enough to not stay in melee range. That 10 Int and 10 Cha are enough to think of average insults to hurl, but +0 to hurting their feelings isn't going to end the combat any faster.
Durability is always a concern. Remember, dead characters do on average 0 points of damage a round. And remember, you're at armour class TEN at first level. You've got oodles of hit points, yes, you're as meaty as Barbie the Barbarian ... but she's wearing hide armour, likely has a positive Dex bonus, so she's got about AC 15 if I'm remembering right. You have TEN. Good luck surviving to second level.
I have been trying to respond to every new point as it comes up rather aggressively, apologies if I haven't gotten to yours. You claim that theres too much contention on whether Dragon Style can flurry to put it in a guide. I'd point out I've addressed the vast bulk of those up to this point. The only points I haven't countered to this point from what I can see are a few people being particularly anal about what enhancing means, and thats mostly because they just showed up.
If you're playing with a GM who is throwing opponents at you able to quickly melt your HP at level 1, and can survive TWO 18 strength two-handed attacks, then you might need to find a new gm. Good luck surviving literally ANY crit, btw, by that logic. Every build can be made to sound weak in a vacuum. If the power level we're judging my build by at level 1 is literally the best in the game, the Barbarian? I think I'm doing just fine. Better than the 17 AC but very little damage and 11 HP rogue is. You know who else does 0 damage? Dead enemies.
As for staying in range? I'm a monk. Past the earliest levels, I'm the fastest non-monster in ANY encounter. I negate arrows. I can pounce at level 5. I hit harder than you if we exchange blows in a chase. How well does that work when the distance is less horizontal than vertical? Some enemies will be unsporting enough to fly. Or just stand on the other side of a 50' ravine, before you have enough levels to jump over it.
And you can deflect one arrow per round. Nice for those one-on-one fights. Not as nice if there are four goblins peppering you with arrows. From trees. Shooting at AC 10.
And crits kill characters..and I've seen quite a few would-be crits fail to confirm. But that confirm roll is against your normal AC. Which will make it easy to confirm. Hopefully you're not fighting anyone with x3 weapons.
And the only reason I'm granting the two-handed attacks at level 1 is that sansetsukons exist. Otherwise unarmed attacks are light, following the normal rules as such (although there are no off-hand attacks for unarmed monks so the Power Attack stays -1/+2). Most PC races do NOT have natural attacks; those that do call them out, such as when a kitsune wants to chomp your face.
nicholas storm wrote: Your system mastery doesn't appear to be very high. Bad bird's build on the previous page can get to AC28 pretty easily at level 10 without sacrificing much of anything offensively from your build. Your build without barkskin and dodge clocks in at AC19 with the same equipment.
You say AC doesn't matter, but in the giant example, DPR vs AC28 is 34. DPR vs AC19 is 83. His build sacrifices nothing offensively from your build and has a damage reduction of 68%.
Sure. I'm assuming you're getting barkskin through a potion? Well, according to the potion page, you're spending 300 a pop for each armor point you get through that. So thats 1500 a pop just for the minimum caster level to reach +5 AC from said potion. That'll last you two hours. So, any dungeon encounter that lasts more than two hours, you'll need to spend at least 3000. Assuming your entire session only takes place over one day. And that you live in such a high magic world that every major city stocks 12th caster level potions of a spell for you to replenish. Whats the average wealth of a level 3 character? 3000? So thats ten percent of your wealth for half an hour of 1 ac at low levels?
But wait, you say, I only use potions in fights where I need to! So thats a trait its costing you now, to turn that drinking into a swift action. That still provokes attacks of opportunity. And consumes the action you need to enter dragon style on the first turn. Which means your flurry is significantly weaker on the most important round of combat.
Boy, 'system mastery' sure gets expensive, guys!
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Or, you know. Barkskin as in the Qinggong Power.
CryntheCrow wrote: nicholas storm wrote: Your system mastery doesn't appear to be very high. Bad bird's build on the previous page can get to AC28 pretty easily at level 10 without sacrificing much of anything offensively from your build. Your build without barkskin and dodge clocks in at AC19 with the same equipment.
You say AC doesn't matter, but in the giant example, DPR vs AC28 is 34. DPR vs AC19 is 83. His build sacrifices nothing offensively from your build and has a damage reduction of 68%.
Sure. I'm assuming you're getting barkskin through a potion? Well, according to the potion page, you're spending 300 a pop for each armor point you get through that. So thats 1500 a pop just for the minimum caster level to reach +5 AC from said potion. That'll last you two hours. So, any dungeon encounter that lasts more than two hours, you'll need to spend at least 3000. Assuming your entire session only takes place over one day. And that you live in such a high magic world that every major city stocks 12th caster level potions of a spell for you to replenish. Whats the average wealth of a level 3 character? 3000? So thats ten percent of your wealth for half an hour of 1 ac at low levels?
But wait, you say, I only use potions in fights where I need to! So thats a trait its costing you now, to turn that drinking into a swift action. That still provokes attacks of opportunity. And consumes the action you need to enter dragon style on the first turn. Which means your flurry is significantly weaker on the most important round of combat.
Boy, 'system mastery' sure gets expensive, guys! Thanks, I needed a good laugh.
Qaianna wrote: How well does that work when the distance is less horizontal than vertical? Some enemies will be unsporting enough to fly. Or just stand on the other side of a 50' ravine, before you have enough levels to jump over it.
And you can deflect one arrow per round. Nice for those one-on-one fights. Not as nice if there are four goblins peppering you with arrows. From trees. Shooting at AC 10.
And crits kill characters..and I've seen quite a few would-be crits fail to confirm. But that confirm roll is against your normal AC. Which will make it easy to confirm. Hopefully you're not fighting anyone with x3 weapons.
And the only reason I'm granting the two-handed attacks at level 1 is that sansetsukons exist. Otherwise unarmed attacks are light, following the normal rules as such (although there are no off-hand attacks for unarmed monks so the Power Attack stays -1/+2). Most PC races do NOT have natural attacks; those that do call them out, such as when a kitsune wants to chomp your face.
About as well as it goes for any Two-handed fighter in plate, or rogue, or barbarian. We pull out our ranged weapons and do the best we can. Or keep a potion of fly in reserve. Or in the case of the build I provided, jump at later levels.
Are you seriously presenting 'can be ambushed and outranged by multiple people in heavy cover at levels where you don't have the tools to deal with it' as the glaring flaw of a melee striker build? As if thats somehow unique to my build? As if the caster not knowing fly because of level or something is a product of something I've done? If you build a reach fighter with trip who can play keep-away with melees forever? This build probably isn't going to fare well. If you build an enchanter with heavy focus on dominate person? This build isn't going to fare well. If you set a low level monk in a scenario where he is surrounded and out of reach of a ton of archers to bypass his built in defenses? Shocker, this build isn't going to fare well. There is no saving throw for your GM being an ass.
Also, I literally have several lines in the original post about using the sansetsukon or seven-branched sword as your primary weapon for early levels. I really don't know why you're lecturing me as if I wouldn't know that.
DominusMegadeus wrote: Or, you know. Barkskin as in the Qinggong Power. So you're trading a class feature for the ability to spend ki and raise armor class for a short time on a striker. Ok.
CryntheCrow wrote: DominusMegadeus wrote: Or, you know. Barkskin as in the Qinggong Power. So you're trading a class feature for the ability to spend ki and raise armor class for a short time on a striker. Ok. Pretty much everybody sees this as a good tradeoff.
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Level 8 Monk
19 DEX (16+1 pip+2 from Belt of STR/DEX)
20 WIS (15+2 from Dual Talent Human+1 pip+2 headband)
+2 AC Bonus from Monk levels
Bracers of Armor +2 (4k gold)
Ring of Protection +1 (2k gold)
Barkskin as Qinggong Power for +3 AC
Dodge feat at 1st level as a bonus feat
AC28 (10+4 DEX+5 WIS+2 bonus+1 ring+3 barkskin+2 armor+1 dodge)
That's 50% avoidance against an equal level enemy. But the sweetest part is how fast it grows.
Level 12 Monk
20 DEX (16+2 pips+2 from Belt of STR/DEX)
22 WIS (15+2 from Dual Talent Human+1 pip+4 headband)
+4 AC Bonus from Monk levels + Monk's Robe
Bracers of Armor +3 (8k gold)
Ring of Protection +1 (2k gold)
Barkskin as Qinggong Power for +5 AC
Dodge feat at 1st level as a bonus feat
AC35 (10+5 DEX+6 WIS+4 bonus+1 ring+5 barkskin+3 armor+1 dodge)
That's 70% avoidance against an equal level enemy.
As you level up, it keeps ramping up to 95% avoidance, without much need to go out of your way to invest in AC.
CryntheCrow wrote: DominusMegadeus wrote: Or, you know. Barkskin as in the Qinggong Power. So you're trading a class feature for the ability to spend ki and raise armor class for a short time on a striker. Ok. For a very long time. Bark skin has a duration of 10 minutes per level which is an hour per activation when you can get it. That is enough for multiple fights, and the ki cost is minimal.
The features you give up for it are generally worthless such as slow fall. If you really miss it, you can spend the small gold cost for the far Superior ring of feather fall.
nicholas storm wrote: CryntheCrow wrote: DominusMegadeus wrote: Or, you know. Barkskin as in the Qinggong Power. So you're trading a class feature for the ability to spend ki and raise armor class for a short time on a striker. Ok. Pretty much everybody sees this as a good tradeoff. I am clearly in the extreme minority for what constitutes a good trade in PF. And admittedly, when one person in a loosely-defined 'discipline' is the outlier, there is usually a good reason for it. So maybe I'm obscenely wrong about everything. More likely than me being PF's Galileo. Just irritable seeing several people who haven't even read what you wrote acting as if you're incapable of basic logic. I may or may not post a build with equipment spent later to prove it would be more than functional. I'm kinda done arguing this. No one's going to try it in game, so there is little to no point in it.
nicholas storm wrote: CryntheCrow wrote: DominusMegadeus wrote: Or, you know. Barkskin as in the Qinggong Power. So you're trading a class feature for the ability to spend ki and raise armor class for a short time on a striker. Ok. Pretty much everybody sees this as a good tradeoff. Trading out slowfall at level 4 for access to barkskin is amazing. How often do you need slowfall anyway? Just get a couple of snapleafs for the times you need it. Heck, the snapleaf will cover more contingencies than slowfall. Or get a ring of featherfall if for some odd reason you find yourself falling out of the sky on a regular basis.
Also, 10 min/lvl using monk lvl as caster level? How is that a 'short time'? O_o
FiddlersGreen wrote: nicholas storm wrote: CryntheCrow wrote: DominusMegadeus wrote: Or, you know. Barkskin as in the Qinggong Power. So you're trading a class feature for the ability to spend ki and raise armor class for a short time on a striker. Ok. Pretty much everybody sees this as a good tradeoff. Trading out slowfall at level 4 for access to barkskin is amazing. How often do you need slowfall anyway? Just get a couple of snapleafs for the times you need it. Heck, the snapleaf will cover more contingencies than slowfall. Or get a ring of featherfall if you find yourself falling out of the sky on a regular basis.
Also, 10 min/lvl using monk lvl as caster level? How is that a 'short time'? O_o In a dungeon crawl? Not short at all. Over the course of a day? Horribly inefficient, in my view. I mean, four fights spread out over a day? More than half your ki at level 6 with a wisdom of 16.
The main reason I like to come to the boards is to get new ideas from other people. I have been playing pathfinder since when it was alpha, and have most of the books and know most of the rules, but still find useful things on the boards.
You could stubbornly cling to the way you have always played, or you could try and learn something new from others.
CryntheCrow wrote: FiddlersGreen wrote: nicholas storm wrote: CryntheCrow wrote: DominusMegadeus wrote: Or, you know. Barkskin as in the Qinggong Power. So you're trading a class feature for the ability to spend ki and raise armor class for a short time on a striker. Ok. Pretty much everybody sees this as a good tradeoff. Trading out slowfall at level 4 for access to barkskin is amazing. How often do you need slowfall anyway? Just get a couple of snapleafs for the times you need it. Heck, the snapleaf will cover more contingencies than slowfall. Or get a ring of featherfall if you find yourself falling out of the sky on a regular basis.
Also, 10 min/lvl using monk lvl as caster level? How is that a 'short time'? O_o In a dungeon crawl? Not short at all. Over the course of a day? Horribly inefficient, in my view. I mean, four fights spread out over a day? More than half your ki at level 6 with a wisdom of 16. As opposed to planning to lose a substantial amount of hit points each fight?
You know what, nevermind. You're free to play your monk however you want. I'm done here.
nicholas storm wrote: The main reason I like to come to the boards is to get new ideas from other people. I have been playing pathfinder since when it was alpha, and have most of the books and know most of the rules, but still find useful things on the boards.
You could stubbornly cling to the way you have always played, or you could try and learn something new from others.
Same here. Though replace 'owning the books' with 'religiously pursuing the SRD.' Admin a group of about 100 people for tabletop at a local college, much of it PF, and play DM for mostly PF and 5e.
I'd point out that most of my 'stubborn clinging' has been debating rules interactions and being told AC values. There have been three actual examples of evidence given, the most prominent being the fire giant one, I think. The rest has just been a lot of bluster about the importance of AC vs not. I'm trying to learn, but theres not exactly been much offered.
Someone started this fallacy that AC doesn't matter, and it's kind of a pet peeve for me. I think that's false. It's possible to make characters that are unhittable and still have decent DPR.
My last campaign (reign of winter), I was playing a holy vindicator with a 52AC at the end of the AP. I pretty much soloed the boss at the end. We finished that last fight with 3 characters - a rogue, an oracle, and my holy vindicator in pretty much a cakewalk. I took zero damage.
The current campaign, I am playing a vivisectionist alchemist. In book 1 of iron gods, my friend and I did half the book with just the two of us. My character has an AC of 24, his an Arcanist has probably AC13. He just stayed behind me; I didn't need to protect him.
That whole thread of combat healing being needed is predicated on people thinking that AC doesn't matter.
CryntheCrow wrote: nicholas storm wrote: The main reason I like to come to the boards is to get new ideas from other people. I have been playing pathfinder since when it was alpha, and have most of the books and know most of the rules, but still find useful things on the boards.
You could stubbornly cling to the way you have always played, or you could try and learn something new from others.
Same here. Though replace 'owning the books' with 'religiously pursuing the SRD.' Admin a group of about 100 people for tabletop at a local college, much of it PF, and play DM for mostly PF and 5e.
I'd point out that most of my 'stubborn clinging' has been debating rules interactions and being told AC values. There have been three actual examples of evidence given, the most prominent being the fire giant one, I think. The rest has just been a lot of bluster about the importance of AC vs not. I'm trying to learn, but theres not exactly been much offered.
I showed you my potential AC levels for you to understand how easy it is to build an evasion-based defensive Monk that can deal a ton of damage. Going nuts on CON, to me, is the wrong way to do it because getting hit does not mean just damage, it means triggering poisons, paralysis, and other effects.
I think that the Monk's I posted above not just protect themselves extremely well vs. physical and touch attacks, they are also able to deal a fairly high amount of damage before any enemy can counterattack effectively.
Secret Wizard wrote: Level 8 Monk
19 DEX (16+1 pip+2 from Belt of STR/DEX)
20 WIS (15+2 from Dual Talent Human+1 pip+2 headband)
+2 AC Bonus from Monk levels
Bracers of Armor +2 (4k gold)
Ring of Protection +1 (2k gold)
Barkskin as Qinggong Power for +3 AC
Dodge feat at 1st level as a bonus feat
AC28 (10+4 DEX+5 WIS+2 bonus+1 ring+3 barkskin+2 armor+1 dodge)
That's 50% avoidance against an equal level enemy. But the sweetest part is how fast it grows.
Actually 55%, as only 27 is needed for 50% (they need a 10).
But yeah decent.
Quote:
Level 12 Monk
20 DEX (16+2 pips+2 from Belt of STR/DEX)
22 WIS (15+2 from Dual Talent Human+1 pip+4 headband)
+4 AC Bonus from Monk levels + Monk's Robe
Bracers of Armor +3 (8k gold)
Ring of Protection +1 (2k gold)
Barkskin as Qinggong Power for +5 AC
Dodge feat at 1st level as a bonus feat
AC35 (10+5 DEX+6 WIS+4 bonus+1 ring+5 barkskin+3 armor+1 dodge)
That's 70% avoidance against an equal level enemy.
As you level up, it keeps ramping up to 95% avoidance, without much need to go out of your way to invest in AC.
Only 33 needed for 50, 2 more means 60% not 70.
Akhana, Aeons have bed to hit (+16)
Monadic Deva is +22, meaning hits on a 13 (35% chance) before buffing with at will Aid, so more likely +23, hit on a 12 (40%) chance.
Clockwork Leviathan is multiple at +25's. So 50% chances.
Ropers are only +20 for bite, need a 15 so low chance, but 6 touch attks at +10, need a 17 for touch (as it ignores Barkskin/Bracers)
Scarlet Walker at +23 and +18, so 40% then 15%.
Clockwork Golem again +23, so 40%.
Giant, Taiga's are (low hit chances means you are fine) at +19.
Demon, Omox are +20 melee or +21 ranged so 13 needed to roll.
So closer overall to 60 not 70.
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This thread:
NOT a candidate for inclusion in the Guide to Guides.
My bad, miscalculated CR12 attack as +13 rather than +15.
In any case, note that in several of the cases you are using actual monsters with buffs and such. Do remember that in a real fight, the Monk never fights totally fair, and has a party to provide further buffs. I also forgot to add Boots of Speed providing Haste as needed for a further +1.
In the case of the Scarlet Walker or Clockwork Leviathan in particular, too, Flying Kick into an electric Elemental Fury to bring them below half health in a single fell-swoop, and so on. Most of the creatures you mentioned have +10-+15 Fort saves, so that's around a 40% chance to land a Stunning Fist every turn for a game over.
Anyway, 60% is right. I'd say that avoidance for Monks scales by 10% every 4 levels, ramping up even higher later on when you get manuals.
CryntheCrow wrote: ...striker. I would be very wary of thinking of PF 'roles' in terms of a 'the guy who does dps' vs. 'the guy who tanks aggro' dynamic, if that's what you mean by a 'striker'. Any character who lives by melee needs to take measures not to die by melee, especially including not eating every attack that comes their way from even the lower-level goons and minions, and not allowing every critical threat rolled against them to auto-confirm.
BadBird wrote: CryntheCrow wrote: ...striker. I would be very wary of thinking of PF 'roles' in terms of a 'the guy who does dps' vs. 'the guy who tanks aggro' dynamic, if that's what you mean by a 'striker'. Any character who lives by melee needs to take measures not to die by melee, especially including not eating every attack that comes their way from even the lower-level goons and minions, and not allowing every critical threat rolled against them to auto-confirm. Its a better name than 'guy who does damage.' I'd be wary of labeling any person who stays on the front lines as 'guy who dodges stuff.' I'm sorry you don't view massive hp as a measure against dying. But for the record? A cloak of displacement would be a pretty amazing investment on this sort of build.
CryntheCrow wrote: BadBird wrote: CryntheCrow wrote: ...striker. I would be very wary of thinking of PF 'roles' in terms of a 'the guy who does dps' vs. 'the guy who tanks aggro' dynamic, if that's what you mean by a 'striker'. Any character who lives by melee needs to take measures not to die by melee, especially including not eating every attack that comes their way from even the lower-level goons and minions, and not allowing every critical threat rolled against them to auto-confirm. Its a better name than 'guy who does damage.' I'd be wary of labeling any person who stays on the front lines as 'guy who dodges stuff.' I'm sorry you don't view massive hp as a measure against dying. But for the record? A cloak of displacement would be a pretty amazing investment on this sort of build. The thing about cranking CON to 18 instead of the conventional 14 is that it's only buying +2hp/level on a character that probably has 8.5hp/level already. It's not a question of 'massive' HP, but a 20/25% increase. Just taking Toughness would be half the difference. The trade-off is that you're more vulnerable not only to physical attacks but to anything involving a will or reflex save, and your initiative and ki pool both suffer as well.
A Cloak of Displacement is very potent, though it's also 50,000gp for 15 rounds of Displacement per day that must be activated with a standard action, making it somewhat painful in both action economy and economy economy for those higher-level characters who can afford to budget one. The 50% miss chance it gives is actually rather comparable to the difference between having a solid AC and being the village bicycle.
An average 'High Attack' 8CR enemy will hit a 24AC level 8 Monk about half the time; if that level 8 Monk doesn't have Barkskin or any real ability AC, he'll be hit by almost every attack. The same Monk using the Crane Style chain will have a functional 32AC and block like a wall.
BadBird wrote: CryntheCrow wrote: BadBird wrote: CryntheCrow wrote: ...striker. I would be very wary of thinking of PF 'roles' in terms of a 'the guy who does dps' vs. 'the guy who tanks aggro' dynamic, if that's what you mean by a 'striker'. Any character who lives by melee needs to take measures not to die by melee, especially including not eating every attack that comes their way from even the lower-level goons and minions, and not allowing every critical threat rolled against them to auto-confirm. Its a better name than 'guy who does damage.' I'd be wary of labeling any person who stays on the front lines as 'guy who dodges stuff.' I'm sorry you don't view massive hp as a measure against dying. But for the record? A cloak of displacement would be a pretty amazing investment on this sort of build. The thing about cranking CON to 18 instead of the conventional 14 is that it's only buying +2hp/level on a character that probably has 8.5hp/level already. It's not a question of 'massive' HP, but a 20/25% increase. Just taking Toughness would be half the difference. The trade-off is that you're more vulnerable not only to physical attacks but to anything involving a will or reflex save, and your initiative and ki pool both suffer as well.
A Cloak of Displacement is very potent, though it's also 50,000gp for 15 rounds of Displacement per day that must be activated with a standard action, making it somewhat painful in both action economy and economy economy for those higher-level characters who can afford to budget one. The 50% miss chance it gives is actually rather comparable to the difference between having a solid AC and being the village bicycle.
An average 'High Attack' 8CR enemy will hit a 24AC level 8 Monk about half the time; if that level 8 Monk doesn't have Barkskin or any real ability AC, he'll be hit by almost every attack. The same Monk using the Crane Style chain will have a functional 32AC and block like a wall. Listen, I'll be the first to acknowledge that if your aim is to make a well-rounded, strong character, pulling back on con just a bit gives you more points to work with for AC, Will saves, and arguably most importantly, Ki. Lets say a good, well-rounded character with dual talent has 18 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Wis, 10 Int and 8 Cha, the product of a cloistered, monastic lifestyle. We now have gained +2 on will saves, +2 on will saves, +4 on AC, +2 Ki and have comparable damage, all for the cost of 2 fort save (admittedly an important one, but one that is already strong for us) and +2 hp/level. And if we planned to spread our wealth relatively evenly among the big six magic items, this would be a potent increase in power for minimal cost.
But here is the kicker: nearly any martial can do what we do, but better. If you want to make an all-around powerful character with great saves, high hp, decent armor and high damage? You can't really beat a barbarian. A paladin has more innate power in it than almost any other class, becoming nigh-immortal just by taking Fae Foundling and power attack at level one, then spamming Extra Lay on hands every level after. No one will suppress you with combat maneuvers like a fighter. Unless you like the flavor, THERE IS NO REASON TO PICK THE UNCHAINED MONK OVER ANOTHER CLASS. Except in one capacity. There is ONE thing the unchained monk reigns supreme on. Their flurry. Its the most attacks, for the most damage, at the highest BAB. Level 5 mini pounce, ki to gain extra attacks? Forget the evasion. Forget the bonus feats. This class is built to jump on an opponent and not let go until someone is dead.
And THAT is the problem with your position. As the levels rise, the difference between 10 and 14 base AC becomes negligible if you don't invest in it. To truly set ourselves apart, to occupy that niche in a way no other class can, we're not going to. Everything we do is for the singular purpose of ruining our opponents under a withering assault. If you jump on a non-boss? Be able to kill it in two turns. One, if its a mook. Avoid full attacks by simply murdering whatever is in front of you, and only pouncing to isolated squares to attack. All that HP, and any items I buy to increase that HP, is all a part of the singular goal of being able to survive long enough to get the last flurry out. To put the BBEG into killing range for my party before I fall. I can't afford to spread my wealth among AC-increasing items. I can't spend ki that could be used for more free attacks on barkskin. I pick the gear, and feats, that best facilitate the concept of overwhelming force. I am going to get on top of you, I will outlast you expending all your resources at once to kill me, and I will see you dead before my party. That is how I play the Unchained Monk. Its not cost-efficient. But it's also not Barbarian-lite. And I've found, time and time again, it works.
THAT is why I value 2+ hp a level over all that extra benefit. Because its one or two more attacks I can weather. And because investing in AC when you'll receive every attack at 10 or 14 means you might as well take it to 1. My min-maxed UM's stat arrays would be 18/7/18/8/16/7. To my build? Armor class IS worthless.
Try this in certain APs and you will surely die. I was playing Rise of the Runelords with a druid, fighter, and me (bard). A new guy shows up with a barbarian with 14AC (we were level 7). We told him not to expect any combat healing. Not surprisingly he died.
Maybe your strategy works because of the party support you have or fudging by GMs or weak scenarios. Making well rounded characters with offensive and defensive capability will work in any game.
nicholas storm wrote: Try this in certain APs and you will surely die. I was playing Rise of the Runelords with a druid, fighter, and me (bard). A new guy shows up with a barbarian with 14AC (we were level 7). We told him not to expect any combat healing. Not surprisingly he died.
Maybe your strategy works because of the party support you have or fudging by GMs or weak scenarios. Making well rounded characters with offensive and defensive capability will work in any game.
Try anything in 'x contrarian scenario' and you will surely 'lose a roleplaying game.' I've survived and more importantly performed in many APs with this build and this style. I have never once felt underpowered or outpaced by anyone I was playing with. Dying is an exception, rather than the rule. But, again, if there is not interest in trying it, theres really no reason in posting about it. I've made my argument. Its largely been rejected, if the posters are an indication of the audience. Don't like it, don't try it. Just don't tell me I 'might learn something' if your only response is refusal.
Marking thread for interest -- definitely want to read later.
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DominusMegadeus wrote: Yeah, this is not a guide, this is your personal build. Agreed.
CryntheCrow, as a physically attractive guide writer of some knowledge, let me give you some advice:
First, if you want to make a go of making a more substantial guide, I'd suggest using google docs or dropbox.
Second, if a lot of different people come at you and tell you that there's something wrong with your guide, there's a solid chance they're right, especially when they bring math into things. As guide writers, we deal with a pretty subjective subject most of the time, which makes it hard to really nail things down. But what we can do is take the suggestions of others and incorporate them into our thoughts.
Being proven wrong isn't a bad thing; hell I was wrong a lot in my guides, and the community was there to help correct me and make sure that I was giving the best possible information that I could to benefit everyone. You're going to be wrong at times, and sometimes, you're going to be VERY wrong. This isn't a reason to get defensive, but instead to try to see where they're coming from and find out if you can reach some sort of middle ground with the views of others.
Personally, I'd listen to Secret Wizard, they've put up quite a few guides and know what they're talking about in their areas of expertise.
Really, I'd just say be more open to the idea of changing ideas instead of getting aggressive on subjects. I know it's helped me become a better guide writer.
CryntheCrow wrote: nicholas storm wrote: Try this in certain APs and you will surely die. I was playing Rise of the Runelords with a druid, fighter, and me (bard). A new guy shows up with a barbarian with 14AC (we were level 7). We told him not to expect any combat healing. Not surprisingly he died.
Maybe your strategy works because of the party support you have or fudging by GMs or weak scenarios. Making well rounded characters with offensive and defensive capability will work in any game.
Try anything in 'x contrarian scenario' and you will surely 'lose a roleplaying game.' I've survived and more importantly performed in many APs with this build and this style. I have never once felt underpowered or outpaced by anyone I was playing with. Dying is an exception, rather than the rule. But, again, if there is not interest in trying it, theres really no reason in posting about it. I've made my argument. Its largely been rejected, if the posters are an indication of the audience. Don't like it, don't try it. Just don't tell me I 'might learn something' if your only response is refusal. When I mentioned learning something, take it in the context that you are writing a guide for a class and didn't know that you could use barkskin.
nicholas storm wrote: CryntheCrow wrote: nicholas storm wrote: Try this in certain APs and you will surely die. I was playing Rise of the Runelords with a druid, fighter, and me (bard). A new guy shows up with a barbarian with 14AC (we were level 7). We told him not to expect any combat healing. Not surprisingly he died.
Maybe your strategy works because of the party support you have or fudging by GMs or weak scenarios. Making well rounded characters with offensive and defensive capability will work in any game.
Try anything in 'x contrarian scenario' and you will surely 'lose a roleplaying game.' I've survived and more importantly performed in many APs with this build and this style. I have never once felt underpowered or outpaced by anyone I was playing with. Dying is an exception, rather than the rule. But, again, if there is not interest in trying it, theres really no reason in posting about it. I've made my argument. Its largely been rejected, if the posters are an indication of the audience. Don't like it, don't try it. Just don't tell me I 'might learn something' if your only response is refusal. When I mentioned learning something, take it in the context that you are writing a guide for a class and didn't know that you could use barkskin. Not knowing and not realizing people consider it a viable alternative to using consumables are two very different things. But my perspective is clearly quite different on most of this stuff. Maybe outright wrong, maybe not. But I've done my best to keep on top of this thread, and address most of the criticisms people have given it. Just because I disagree, doesn't mean I haven't given them their respective weights.
N. Jolly wrote: DominusMegadeus wrote: Yeah, this is not a guide, this is your personal build. Agreed.
CryntheCrow, as a physically attractive guide writer of some knowledge, let me give you some advice:
First, if you want to make a go of making a more substantial guide, I'd suggest using google docs or dropbox.
Second, if a lot of different people come at you and tell you that there's something wrong with your guide, there's a solid chance they're right, especially when they bring math into things. As guide writers, we deal with a pretty subjective subject most of the time, which makes it hard to really nail things down. But what we can do is take the suggestions of others and incorporate them into our thoughts.
Being proven wrong isn't a bad thing; hell I was wrong a lot in my guides, and the community was there to help correct me and make sure that I was giving the best possible information that I could to benefit everyone. You're going to be wrong at times, and sometimes, you're going to be VERY wrong. This isn't a reason to get defensive, but instead to try to see where they're coming from and find out if you can reach some sort of middle ground with the views of others.
Personally, I'd listen to Secret Wizard, they've put up quite a few guides and know what they're talking about in their areas of expertise.
Really, I'd just say be more open to the idea of changing ideas instead of getting aggressive on subjects. I know it's helped me become a better guide writer. Fair enough. Rarely posted on this, so didn't know I could not edit later. Suppose there is a reason people use the docs. I genuinely don't think I've been 'proven wrong,' particularly about the interaction between Dragon Style and Power Attack, but I acknowledge that what I've posted is at best an incomplete build. Thought thats mostly due to the fact that updating a guide with part 2 on page 2 is itself silly. Frankly, I'm more interested in more clearly explaining this while incorporating gear choices and encounter examples to show why its viable.
Really enjoyed your Kineticist, Barbarian and Alchemist guide, by the by. Keep on doing what you do.
I am very high on monks using consumables. I favor UMD with wands of mage armor. You can also purchase a few scrolls (if you have a wizard in your party) or potions of mage armor. If you have UMD you can also use a wand of shield.
One thing your build misses is that monks do have their own possible niche - they can have a touch AC unrivaled by most classes. This comes in handy against guns as well as incorporeal undead and rays and other touch attacks.
nicholas storm wrote: I am very high on monks using consumables. I favor UMD with wands of mage armor. You can also purchase a few scrolls (if you have a wizard in your party) or potions of mage armor. If you have UMD you can also use a wand of shield.
One thing your build misses is that monks do have their own possible niche - they can have a touch AC unrivaled by most classes. This comes in handy against guns as well as incorporeal undead and rays and other touch attacks.
If you think building MC Hammer is worth its own guide, have at it.
CryntheCrow wrote: nicholas storm wrote: I am very high on monks using consumables. I favor UMD with wands of mage armor. You can also purchase a few scrolls (if you have a wizard in your party) or potions of mage armor. If you have UMD you can also use a wand of shield.
One thing your build misses is that monks do have their own possible niche - they can have a touch AC unrivaled by most classes. This comes in handy against guns as well as incorporeal undead and rays and other touch attacks.
If you think building MC Hammer is worth its own guide, have at it. It's pretty much built into Secret Wizard's build
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CryntheCrow wrote: But here is the kicker: nearly any martial can do what we do, but better. I think you're seriously underestimating how much of a wrecking-ball an Unchained Monk can be while still running a great defense. The two aren't mutually exclusive at all; in fact in some capacities they're complimentary.
For example, give the Monk I mentioned a temple sword in two hands and by level 6 he can make a free 20ft. pounce-flurry that starts with an unarmed strike and follows through with two-handed, 1.5xSTR Power Attacks. If spending a point of ki, he's got three full-on sword-strikes on top of his kick, which is an avalanche of offense by any standards.
If the same Monk chooses to take the Crane Style chain by 7, he can make his flying flurry at a -1 penalty in exchange for a +4, +4'wing' AC bonus, which at level 7 can easily give him an overall AC of over 30, making him very difficult to hit. If an enemy misses him by 4 or less he loses his +4'wing' AC, but then gets to counterattack, giving him yet another strike that round. Since the Unchained Monk naturally gains a point of AC every four levels from Monk plus a point every three levels from Barkskin, his AC naturally continues to climb even if he does nothing at all for it.
This is all without getting into really crazy stuff, like taking a level of Shizuru Cleric to drop stagger with a swift action and throw Medusa's Wrath in, which by level 11 would mean an Unchained Monk with Haste could make 6 two-handed sword and 3 unarmed strikes with a single pouncing flurry - and have 6 of those attacks at full AB.
BadBird wrote: CryntheCrow wrote: But here is the kicker: nearly any martial can do what we do, but better. I think you're seriously underestimating how much of a wrecking-ball an Unchained Monk can be while still running a great defense. The two aren't mutually exclusive at all; in fact in some capacities they're complimentary.
For example, give the Monk I mentioned a temple sword in two hands and by level 6 he can make a free 20ft. pounce-flurry that starts with an unarmed strike and follows through with two-handed, 1.5xSTR Power Attacks. If spending a point of ki, he's got three full-on sword-strikes on top of his kick, which is an avalanche of offense by any standards.
If the same Monk chooses to take the Crane Style chain by 7, he can make his flying flurry at a -1 penalty in exchange for a +4, +4'wing' AC bonus, which at level 7 can easily give him an overall AC of over 30, making him very difficult to hit. If an enemy misses him by 4 or less he loses his +4'wing' AC, but then gets to counterattack, giving him yet another strike that round. Since the Unchained Monk naturally gains a point of AC every four levels from Monk plus a point every three levels from Barkskin, his AC naturally continues to climb even if he does nothing at all for it.
This is all without getting into really crazy stuff, like taking a level of Shizuru Cleric to drop stagger with a swift action and throw Medusa's Wrath in, which by level 11 would mean an Unchained Monk with Haste could make 6 two-handed sword and 3 unarmed strikes with a single pouncing flurry - and have 6 of those attacks at full AB. Unfortunately, spending ki to get an extra attack in flurry can only be an additional unarmed strike. Now, you can acquire the ability to use these weapons in a flurry by picking up the ascetic style feats, (as well as being able to stunning fist through them, etc.) but you'd be sacrificing crane style and several feats to do so. If you're using a weapon past early levels as a UM, you're opting for a more defensive option. Dragon-style is all-out offense. Now, a weapon monk isn't bad at all. Its just not the core of what I was going for.
CryntheCrow wrote:
Unfortunately, spending ki to get an extra attack in flurry can only be an additional unarmed strike. Now, you can acquire the ability to use these weapons in a flurry by picking up the ascetic style feats, (as well as being able to stunning fist through them, etc.) but you'd be sacrificing crane style and several feats to do so. If you're using a weapon past early levels as a UM, you're opting for a more defensive option. Dragon-style is all-out offense. Now, a weapon monk isn't bad at all. Its just not the core of what I was going for.
Spending ki for an extra attack is an inefficient use of Ki that should only be used for emergencies. It uses your swift action, and it is an extremely limited resource in uses per day, especially when you have Ki powers to fuel as well.
Being a weapon monk is more offense orients than defensive. Weapons are cheaper to enchant than an amulet of mighty fists, so you have a more powerful weapon than an unarmed monk. You have a better crit profile, and you do more damage when two-handing from STR modifier and Power Attack.
Btw, you can't take Qinggong with UnMonk.
Kaboogy wrote: Btw, you can't take Qinggong with UnMonk. Fortunately you don't have to, since it's baked into the class itself via the qinggong ki power.
Shisumo wrote: Kaboogy wrote: Btw, you can't take Qinggong with UnMonk. Fortunately you don't have to, since it's baked into the class itself via the qinggong ki power. I happily stand corrected.
Irrespective of the arguments regarding Power Attack and AC optimization I agree that this isn't a guide. It is a fairly standard (and possibly underpowered) Unchained Monk build. But as N Jolly said, please learn from this and try again, Cryn! Don't get discouraged by critique, but don't ignore it either.
I admit, the idea of not giving a damn about getting hit is pretty interesting. I'm thinking add the Blood Rage spell to it somehow. Maybe a custom ring?
N. Jolly wrote:
Really, I'd just say be more open to the idea of changing ideas instead of getting aggressive on subjects. I know it's helped me become a better guide writer.
Sage advice.
Azten wrote: I admit, the idea of not giving a damn about getting hit is pretty interesting. I'm thinking add the Blood Rage spell to it somehow. Maybe a custom ring? Holy hell. I have never seen that spell before. THAT is the sort of benefit I'd be willing to invest in consumables and traits for.
This isn't to say that there isn't a place for ignoring AC. But monk isn't the place to make it.
If you were going to make a pure melee beatstick that doesn't care about AC, you would be better off with an Invulnerable Rager Barbarian or Arcane Bloodline Bloodrager. They both have much better tools to mitigate low AC than simply high HP.
CryntheCrow wrote: Unfortunately, spending ki to get an extra attack in flurry can only be an additional unarmed strike. Now, you can acquire the ability to use these weapons in a flurry by picking up the ascetic style feats, (as well as being able to stunning fist through them, etc.) but you'd be sacrificing crane style and several feats to do so. If you're using a weapon past early levels as a UM, you're opting for a more defensive option. Dragon-style is all-out offense. Now, a weapon monk isn't bad at all. Its just not the core of what I was going for. My entire post repeatedly referenced combining necessary unarmed strikes with 2-hand temple sword.
You don't need Ascetic Style to use a weapon in a flurry, and there's absolutely nothing preventing you from combining an unarmed strike with a weapon flurry; you also don't have to use a ki strike to launch a flying kick - it's just a really great combo when the situation calls for it.
Furthermore, a temple sword wielded in two hands automatically gains 1.5x STR and 1.5X Power Attack along with better crits and cheaper enhancement, which makes it at least on par with Dragon Style unarmed strikes if not arguably better.
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