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Well, just about to start an Evil Campaign, and i've finally decided to go with the Necromancer-pact.
First time ever building one tho, thoughs are very welcome ^-^.
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Brewer's Guide to Undeath link
TLDR: Be a cruoromancer wizard, cleric, juju spirit guide oracle, shaman with human FCB and lore wandering spirit, or gravewalker witch. Important spells are Animate Dead, Desecrate, and Command Undead. Buy a Voidstick. Boost the caster level of your Animate Dead as much as possible with things like the Gifted Adept trait and an orange prism ioun stone. Don't take the Undeath Master feat. Animate bloody skeletons out of large strong monsters, and animate a large (or bigger) fast zombie flying creature to be your mount. Don't cast Create Undead.
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I am personally way more simplistic in my love for necromancers. A flat wizard with subschool in necromancy is good enough for me, but then again, that's just me. I always imagined them like arrogant mages who delved too deep into the art of necromancy. Pathfinder allows you to build the type of character however you want. Perhaps first general idea that you should ask your self is, do you want your character to be arcane or divine based class? Arcane class (wizard) is probably a bit more versatile and offensive while divine classes (cleric, oracle) are typically less versatile and more defensive.
Also a minor note, it might be good idea to invest in social skills for maximum enjoyment and not to depend too heavily on animated undead. Due to their nature, necromancers tend to be picked on rather easily. You can't just walk through the village with several undead skeletons without attracting trouble. In fact, necromancers are villains most of the time in campaigns. It might be a good idea to develop a good reason why would such a character join the party, as well as his future plans and motives.
Adam
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My favorite classes for Necromancers are the Bones Oracle and the Gravewalker Witch.
Bones Oracle is a divine caster that gets armor, and revelations that give it things like bone armor, soul devouring, and negative energy melee touch attacks.
Gravewalker Witch is an arcane caster that gets free Desecrate and Command Undead like abilities at will, can directly control single undead by possessing them, and is good at debuffing and making back row ranged touch attacks with spells that are normally melee touch attacks.
Both get all of the animate spells, both get Command Undead (Oracle gets the feat, Gravewalker gets a limited version of the spell as a spell like ability), and all the other core goodies that are required to make it work.
I personally do not like the Juju Oracle because, while it can animate LOTS of undead, none of the rest of it feels like a Necromancer to me.
A very good feat I just discovered today for a Necromancer is Charnel Soldiers. It lets your undead automatically share your Teamwork feats. There are teamwork feats like Outflank (if you're flanking with someone else with the feat, your attack bonus goes up to +4) and Precise Strike (flanking with someone with the feat, and you do +1d6 extra damage).
Just imagine your horde of skeletons and zombies, they're going to be flanking everything they fight anyway due purely to numbers, just imagine them all getting +4 to hit and +1d6 to all of their attacks. Your hordes are now basically all sneak attacking rogues.
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I am personally way more simplistic in my love for necromancers. A flat wizard with subschool in necromancy is good enough for me, but then again, that's just me.
Also a minor note, it might be good idea to invest in social skills for maximum enjoyment and not to depend too heavily on animated undead. Due to their nature, necromancers tend to be picked on rather easily. You can't just walk through the village with several undead skeletons without attracting trouble. In fact, necromancers are villains most of the time in campaigns. It might be a good idea to develop a good reason why would such a character join the party, as well as his future plans and motives.
Adam
I share you Love for the Simplicity of a Necromancer wizard or Gluttony Wizard.
I agree with the social skills. I tend to take lots of Languages and on a 20 Point Buy I rock a 13 Cha to start (later going up to a 14). In the early levels I tend to use the Feat Command Undead when facing lots of minions. I have a mantra "They can always roll a 1." and it usually happens I can snag something. If there is 4-5 Undead zombies I tend to snag 1. That 1 is still a resource gained for near nothing. No spell needed and now you just created an extra body on your team to soak damage and do damage.
As a Necromancer joining a party I have played the White Necromancer reasons. "I'm bringing glory and light back to the noble study of LIFE and death." This Guide Is very good for giving advice on a necromancer wizard and a different view of necromancy. I do like his little Evolved familiar trick but lately I have been riding the Arcane Bond: Ring Train. I enjoy it's versatility and a cheap Ring of Invisibility. A designer ring without taking the feat...very nice indeed.
IF you have access to 3rd player stuff I HIGHLY recommend This Improved Familiar. The Negative Energy Aura (Su) is AMAZING for a necromancer.
(marked for research)
The above is correct, Desecrate and Undead Master simply increase how many HD of undead you can create per casting, it does not affect how many HD you can control.
If you really need to raise a bunch of undead in a hurry, its easier to simply carry around a Voidstick.
Personally I like the Gravewalker because it gets a desecrate aura that replicates the undead buffing effects for free.
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Several posts on this topic all worth reading especially regarding Controlling Undead.
Wizard specialized as Necromancer is pretty solid. Drawback there is two schools are banned from you. Picking is the hard part.
Clerics Undead Lord archtype worth considering. Drawback is you get only one Domain and it's picked for you.
Another class people seem to not consider maybe because it's new is the Occultist. They have limited spells per day and spell selection is painful. The advantage is Necromancy gets the ability to control up to 4 HD worth of undead per level above and beyond Animate Dead. I'm hoping to play a Necromancy Wizard and Occultist soon myself.
Language.
Necromancy Wizard gets 2 opposition schools. Not Banned or Prohibited schools. These can be Gained back with a Discovery- Opposition Research. Or you can use 2 spell slots on that level to prepare the spell of opposition. Having an opposition is not that bad as a few schools are worth taking the penalties associated with it. The best 2 schools for opposition IMO is Enchantment and Divination. Enchantment is a school that requires dedication to and to be built around to be effective. The only spell your really going to miss is going to be Heroism...but you can still prepare it and craft a scroll of it on your off day. Not a huge loss in the scheme of things. Divination is the one that hurts. It requires you to use 2 0 level spells for detect magic. But that is not too terrible mid game at all. Most divination are best on a scroll because they are situation based at best. But like I said at 10th level I take opposition research and gain back Divination. Many people share my belief Enchantment is easy to let go. The Divination not as much because some people can not get over the penalties for preparing divination spells under opposition.
The Gluttony Wizard has Prohibited (Banned) schools and not opposition. They are already chosen for you. Enchantment and Abjuration. I will be honest the Abjuration loss takes some skill and planning to get around as Abjuration has some really decent spells in it. Dispel magic being the biggest lost. But if you Take UMD trait or just skill points in it via your headband you can try to get by on scrolls. Using the 2 necromancy spells per level bonus I tried my best to layer up my defenses via necromancy's long list of low level buffs.
All in all the Wizard is an amazing class regardless of specialty...Necromancy Wizards just happen to be my favorite style of Wizard followed by Conjuration and Transmutation.
Well, first, thank you all so much ^-^!
@Undead Lord: i find this archetype a loss, one undead minion at the cost of a domain, seems not viable for me.
@Occultist: As said close spell list, and then is a completely new class for me.
Now i forgot to give the intro of the campaign: we're all dead and starting at level 1 in Hell, gaining Outsider Subtype, fire resistance aswell, starting naked (wont be a problem, surely the GM has a plan, but we're starting without gear at all and familiar/animal companion etc.).
Assuming that, going around with an horde of undead minions wont be a problem; nobody cares in hell, and we're proud evil, without need of hiding from no-one.
The idea i have of the PC is: she was a queen, most like an Egyptian Pharaon, who decided the day she knew she was dying that her slaves would be needed in her "un-life", so killed them all and raised them as undead-slaves.
For the race i was planning to get Shabti mostly for the flavour.
I'm not planning to have the bigger horde ever, but, mainly for the flavour, having a nice number of undead-slaves to help me build a city, statues in my honor and whatever --> planning to build a nation on my own (i'm a fool i know ^-^!).
I prefer to have minions that i can carry with me, instead having a tons that simply vanish in time.
You are correct about the wording. Now as far as schools I'd pick Enchantment and Illusion. Especially if you are straight Wizard only. Abjuration and Divination offer far too many spells that I'd want to have. Enchantment and Illusion not really especially if a Necromancer.
Overall, I don't agree with you: Divination is much easier to have as an opposition school (with the proviso that you take Opposition Research to regain it, since it's best spells are higher level - as FT explained).
Losing out on Mirror Image, Blur, Invisibility on the other hand really hurts a low level wizard since those are so very useful for avoiding dying.
If you go Cleric maybe then Divination because a Cleric gets a lot of the same spells listed in Divination. Illusion has Invisibility which is useful enough to purchase a ring maybe for. Enchantment spells overall are okay but opposite of what you are going for. Or maybe not an Undead caster able to control living as well. Illusion is an easy one to give up overall.
This doesn't make sense - clerics don't have opposition schools at all.
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You are correct about the wording. Now as far as schools I'd pick Enchantment and Illusion. Especially if you are straight Wizard only. Abjuration and Divination offer far too many spells that I'd want to have. Enchantment and Illusion not really especially if a Necromancer.Overall, I don't agree with you: Divination is much easier to have as an opposition school (with the proviso that you take Opposition Research to regain it, since it's best spells are higher level - as FT explained).
Losing out on Mirror Image, Blur, Invisibility on the other hand really hurts a low level wizard since those are so very useful for avoiding dying.
Get out of my head lol.
The other reason is Color Spray. Level 1-5 this spell wins fights. And since I traded off Enchantment I can't use sleep. Tho arguably Color Spray is Better. But yes I do enjoy those other spells you mentioned Gilarius. Blur Could be "Bought" back if you Take Improved Familiar Dust Mephit (one of my favorites). Blur 1/HOUR and Wind Wall 1/day as SLA and the ability to use wands.
But really its up to the player if they are ok with losing the school of magic that gives you a miss chance/Concealment part of their Layered defenses.
Sadly tho Gluttony Wizards have no choice on the Abjuration Prohibition.
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Fruian, there's just one small problem with relying on a mephit for Blur at low levels - you need to be 7th level before you can take it.
Colour Spray is very useful, but there are alternatives. Burning Hands is not as good, but still effective. And I favour taking Evocation as an opposition school along with Divination since there are now so many alternative ways of doing damage.
Which means I still get Colour Spray, of course!
Sorry about the derail.
To address the actual topic:
Spirit Guide Oracle works well as a necromancer whilst still being able to do anything else. It's not as good as a dedicated necromancer, but the versatility is excellent.
'Today, I need Haste and Fireball'
'Now I need Control Undead and Blood Money, to go with my Lesser Restoration and Animate Dead spells'
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Fruian, there's just one small problem with relying on a mephit for Blur at low levels - you need to be 7th level before you can take it.
Colour Spray is very useful, but there are alternatives. Burning Hands is not as good, but still effective. And I favour taking Evocation as an opposition school along with Divination since there are now so many alternative ways of doing damage.
Which means I still get Colour Spray, of course!
Sorry about the derail.
The Derail is not a bad thing considering these are tools that might be used on this character. Learning from our experiances.
Burning Hands is not that bad of an answer but it is no where as good as color spray. Unless you spec for Evocation that is. But without it 5d4 usually is not enough to kill a whole lot and them still awake and able to fight back is not where you want to be.
I will agree Evocation is easily given up as well. I can get "Blasts" out of Conjuration or Illusion.
And yes Improved Familiar does take a while. I was just suggesting it as a way to get Blur back without Opposition Research. Heck the familiar adds an extra 25 spells a day. (not that you will cast Blur Every hour...but it is possible.)
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I disagree on Familiers period. They are useful but I have seen them killed so easily simply because a Wizard gets careless with it. I'd take Bonded Item over that or an Archtype that replaces that. Most Wizards I have seen don't use them the ones that have, have lost them once or twice before reaching seventh level.
The reason I favor Evocation over Illusion and Enchantment is they get saves and Resistances and either work or don't. Evocation have saves but most if not all at least deal half damage. All to often especially at higher levels burn through spells to mess with a monster that almost can't fail a save. Rather focus on punching through his resistance and blast him. He might save but I will hurt and maybe kill him. Abjuration and Conjuration give you the two most Wizard spells ever. Mage Armor is Conjuration. Shield is Abjuration both vital for a Wizards survival. Without them a Wizards average AC if lucky will be 14. Kobolds can hit that without too much effort. Add those two and your AC jumps to 22. Most low level monsters can't touch that.
I have come to like the Bonded Item: ring myself. But wizards, Sorcerer, Alchemists, and Arcanists in pathfinder can play loose and fast with the familiar as if it dies...NOTHING happens to them. Replacing it is just Gold taxing. Now on a Witch and a Shaman you will want to protect your Familiar as it is your source to spells. This is not like AD&D where losing your familiar (as a Wizard) was a bit more detrimental.
As far as Archetypes...I love the Protector Archetype on Tumor Familiars on Alchemist cause it is a very defensive ability. Combine A. Barrier with the Familiars Shield other ability and Fast Healing 5 you an reliably dump 10-15 points of damage to the familiar almost every turn and not worry.
As far as Mage armor and Shield being necessary...No it is not. You only really need 1. I prefer the Mage Armor. But 9/10 I get both spells on a scroll and use it from there. So if I oppose Abjuration (would NEVER oppose Conjuration) I can still grab shield and protection from Evil.
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Mage armor is a spell a Wizard should invest in. An hour per level makes it worth owning especially after fifth level. Most adventuring parties only travel about that long and even in a dungeon it lasts for most of the encounters until a party leaves or rests.
Shield is a combat spell I usually like owning just in case but cast it only if needed.
Bonded Items actually is pretty sweet especially the Amulets since you could as easily as say third own have some of the better magical items.
I invest in wand of mage armor 750gp for 50 hours of armor. Buying 50 scrolls is 1250gp. So for 500 less gold the wand is a good investment.
Amulet is very good amulet of spellcraft is strong. But I like ring of invisibility. Without posting my spell list choices I can assure you less than 50% of my spells break the Invisibility effect. Means I'm walking about with a 50% miss chance as well as a high stealth to keep from being snuck up on. Paying 10000gp at 9th level is easy enough after my 2 main buys: Blessed book and headband of Vast Int. Everything else is just luxury.
Sadly i can dispose of Paizo's products only :c.
About divinity we already decided with the GM for Set.
Now i'm stuck on which class i should pick.
Arcane have less option on undead, but more versatility.
Divine have more option and buffs for them.
Am i right?
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Derek, don't buy any Ring of Wizardy. Look at the price and compare with Pearls of Power, which also don't occupy any slots.
Kitty, the big choice between Arcane and Divine as a necromancer mostly depends on your party: do you need an arcane or divine spellcaster, since either can function as a necromancer?
The Wizard spell list is much better than a Clerics. (Oracles, being spontaneous casters have a different 'feel', so pick that if you prefer it.)
Clerics are much better in combat, and lack any real deficiencies - which can also make them seem a bit bland.
Do you see your Phaeroh Queen as someone in armour who wades into battle personally, or as a 'stay back and let your minions do the actual work' type?
I see more my Phaeroh Queen being the master staying back and let her minions do the job.
So both divine or arcane give me the right things to keep my minion around me all the time? (i mean they don't vanish when the spell ends or so).
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I see more my Phaeroh Queen being the master staying back and let her minions do the job.
So both divine or arcane give me the right things to keep my minion around me all the time? (i mean they don't vanish when the spell ends or so).
No, Animated undead do not vanish; neither do Created undead, but those are less useful since it is very hard to retain control of them. In particular, Bloody Skeletons can repair themselves as long as they aren't destroyed by positive energy (eg channeling, or smite evil).
If your party doesn't need a divine caster, then I'd go with a wizard, or possibly a Gravewalker Witch. The witch will be better at being a necromancer; the wizard will simply be better overall.
Mystic Theurge, as written, is a trap - it ends up being ineffective at being either a wizard or a cleric, however there is one way to make it work. If your GM and group are using the optional Guild Rules, then achieving a high enough 'Fame' level allows you to regain casting levels. 3 levels (eventually) in one class plus one level in a 2nd class.
Right now we have only some ideas, and this is how the group should look:
Antipaladin LE Human or Half-Orc
Fighter/Barbarian Unknown Race
Something (a guy who has not decided yet)
Me :3!
Being arcane how can i control my "horde of slaves"? CHA?
1) I don't care to have an horde at 1st level; this makes no sense and it's unbalanced;
2) Why should i take Charm Person to control Undead (i think mind affecting doesn't even work on them)? That's no sense :c!
3) No i don't want to enslave my party; that's abusive and Legal Stupid Paladin-like.
I don't need to force any rule here to roleplay my PC. At 3rd level no minions? no problem, i'm on a quest to find my slaves, because when i died we raised in two different places, and now i'm on a quest to retrieve them.
Charm living subjects in Hell? I think 70% are not human, and those who are will be surely powerful, probably will have high will as casters, maybe Cha too.
I don't get the point in going Enchantment school; It requires high CHA and feats involved, i've none for that school because i'm going Necromancy.
I think there's no sense on roleplaying them as they are my slaves.
If our ideas on what to do doesn't collide then what the GM will do? Give them a will save or be under my control?
Then i find like limitating their choices, their background: no this idea wont fit what i thought to do.
Actually you can have minions starting at first level with Gravewalker Witch. They get Command Undead as per the spell as a spell like ability at level 1, limit to HD = caster level.
So at lvl 1 you can control 1 HD of undead, 2 at lvl 2, etc.
You can't actually raise your own yet, but you can snag some from encounters right off the bat.
Nobody has said nothing about sorcerers: aren't they ok to be necromancers? Why wizards are better?
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Nobody has said nothing about sorcerers: aren't they ok to be necromancers? Why wizards are better?
Sorcerers aren't as effective at being an arcane caster if they are also trying to be a necromancer. Eg you reach 4th level, do you take Command Undead as your only 2nd level spell or something else? How many times per day will you actually cast it? Meanwhile the wizard got it at 3rd level and swaps it in and out as required, making scrolls so it's always available.
Some people prefer spontaneous casting, others don't. But spontaneous casters are best when you want to cast the same spell repeatedly each day and you just don't often do that as a necromancer.
Oracles suffer in a similar way, but can have a mystery that helps. I'm currently playing a spirit guide oracle of Lore who is a necromancer. I can use the wandering spirit to get the Bones spirit when I need to but most days I stick with the Lore spirit to have a selection of arcane spells available.
If you want to be an effective spellcaster with necromancy as a sideline, then wizard is the best. If you want to focus on necromancy and be less effective as a caster, then Gravewalker Witch is probably the best. If you prefer to be a divine caster, then go with cleric.
Well, i've read on another post similar to mine, that a guy said "Command Undead" the spell is the best, compared to the feat or whatever.
Now as a cleric anyway i could get that spell?
My objective is focusing on Necromancy, about my minions i need to have them around me mostly of the time, but don't really need to buff them like crazy or so; they're there mostly for flavour, with spells and so i could do other things eventually.
Command Undead the spell is a 2nd level arcane spell. Or a 3rd level inevitable domain spell.
So, the only way a cleric gets it is if you take that domain. My spirit guide oracle gets it by using the wandering hex to poach arcane spells.
If you go with a Cleric I would personally avoid the Undead Lord archetype. There's nothing really special about the Undead minion you gain from it and you'll have more than enough to manage. I think a domain would serve you better in the long run.
Also, and I can't believe I'm suggesting one of these, but you could take the prestige class Agent of the Grave to get necromancy spells from both the wizard list as a cleric such as Command Undead and Vampiric Touch. You lose a caster level though so consider taking the Magical Knack trait to get back the caster level. It won't get the lost spellslots back but it does keep your spells going at full power.
Edit:
This is a question for everyone that has been on this thread. Animate Dead has a pool of how many undead you can control 4HD per level. My question is this what if you are playing two or more Casters. Example Cleric/Wizard. Mystic Thuerge being an option as well effectively allowing you to go up as both a Cleric and Wizard.
Me and a co GM have ruled regardless of how many casting classes capable of casting Animate Dead it's still only one pool most likely your highest. We did this as a balance issue. A Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Thurge of 16th level. From one pool the amount is 64 HD worth of Undead under your control. Scary and painful as a GM especially if most are 4 or 5 HD skeletons with both Burning and Bloody Template which is actually cheap to add. Now I don't see any rules that states the pool is just from one class. Mystic Thuerge now allows me to cast as both a Cleric and a Wizard both have the spell. Now that number doubles to 128 HD worth of Undead. That scares the hell out of me as a GM that's an army. While he was playing the undead army commander even he agreed the number should only come from one source.
I'm curious as to people's thoughts on this.
I would personally rule that it doesn't stack if only because it's the same spell and effects from the same spell don't normally stack.
Yeah it's one of the prestige classes I actually like. It also allows a cleric to nab great spells like Possession since Occult Adventures came out.
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@Kitty In A Fishbowl
It feels that you are still a bit confused about what to take. Pathfinder can be like that due to overwhelming number of options. While there are some other ideas to ponder around, such as witch or sorcerer necromancer, these typically require a bit more experience to play out due to restrictive spell lists. If you are relatively new, my advice will be a cleric necromancer. He is simplest class to play out and you can start animating undead single undead at level 3 and multiple undead at level 5.
Whatever class you do pick, here is a minor rundown of what you should aim for:
- CHA score of 12-14 for social roleplay and undead controlling effects
- Main attribute score of 16-18
- STR score of 12 (for carrying armor on cleric) or DEX score of 12 (for ranged attacks on wizard); you could avoid having STR 12 for cleric, but you have to grab lighter armor then
- Several feats: Spell Focus (necromancy), Greater Spell Focus (necromancy), Command Undead (unless you already have it as wizard)
- Skills to pick: combination of Bluff and Diplomacy (for polite but tricky type) or Intimidate and Diplomacy (for rough and intimidating type). Having Sense Motive, Perception and Knowledge (religion) is good idea also.
In the first few levels, pick debuffing effects such as Cause Fear, Command, Ray of Sickening or other controlling spells within range. You can't do any real damage yet, so focus on decreasing enemy's chances of succeeding at anything. Having item crafting feat can also help here for backup scrolls, potions and wands.
Adam
Oddball suggestion but one I personally found myself loving was a Summoner (Spirit Summoner archetype) with the Bones spirit. Undead Appearance on my Eidolon as well as the Shadow evolutions, and I myself was a Dhampir, by the end-game I had a large army of undead minions, I had a transport "tower" that was a Fast Plague Zombie Purple Worm that was hollowed out and had its innards converted into a nice estate house and barracks for my horde of skeletons, zombies, and my ghoul commandos. My eidolon was a whirlwind of death, and led my zombie/skeleton hordes into combat while I sat back buffing, healing and being artillery with wands/staves.