My DM is arguing that the level 8 Damage increase to the draconic bloodline claws from 1d6 to 1d8 is considered an effective size increase and thus does not stack with rageshaper. I need something to prove this is not the case because not one build I've seen on this forum addresses the fact that the claws do infact increase their damage die. Which by http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t5u this post, you can only have 1 effective die increase and 1 size based die increase. Are the builds on these forums just forgetting this fact or is there exact language / clarification somewhere I am missing.
I don't really care so much about not having optimal damage. I just don't like the confusion. I prob will end up not taking rageshaper just to avoid conflict, but I would like to know for the future.
Edit, I realize this might belong in the rules forum, but as this is my first post I couldn't tell exactly. Please forgive if it is the wrong place.
Because it doesn't say it's an effective size increase. The damage is increased, similar to the Monk's scaling unarmed damage, which is also neither.
Size based increases need an actual change of size so they aren't those.
Effective size increases say "Increase 1 die size or step" Because they apply regardless of the size of the original attack.
meaning if they were effective it's effectively setting them to 1d8, something nothing else does, and if you became actually large this so called "effective increase" would now do nothing.
You wont find anything that explicitly proves it, because its simply not how an effective size increase works, so you cant. Effective size increases reference adjusting the damage die, they don't say change a 1d6 to 1d8, because they are general adjustments. The draconic bloodline ability is more similar to vital strike, which adds additional damage dice, which can then be adjusted by both a true and an effective size increase.
Not to mention the archetype was specifically designed to work with the bloodlines that give natural attacks
The mnk thing applies here. I think we need an exact answer, because without one, the mnk unarmed damage can be seen as using the language " “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language" from the FAQ. This makes items like stonefist almost unusable as way as the rageshaper until you polymorph.
Is there really nothing out there that explicitly contradicts the FAQ which indirectly infers that any damage die increase is considered an effective size change.
MiraxPrada wrote: The mnk thing applies here. I think we need an exact answer, because without one, the mnk unarmed damage can be seen as using the language " “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language" from the FAQ. This makes items like stonefist almost unusable as way as the rageshaper until you polymorph.
Is there really nothing out there that explicitly contradicts the FAQ which indirectly infers that any damage die increase is considered an effective size change.
You cant indirectly infer the FAQ though. There are abilities, like sacred weapon, monk unarmed damage, and progressing natural weapons that alter base damage. They all explicitly state the actual damage die to use. An effective size increase generally can't specify an explicit damage die.
Nothing in the ability mentions the word 'size' or implies that this increase is an effective size increase.
The issue is not with it being size related at all. The issue is with the FAQ language that says due to the phrase "and similar language", that any increase in damage die is considered an "effective size increase" for terms of stacking. Not that it is a size increase, just effectively acts like one.
Obviously this is not RAI as there is tons of evidence, but I don't see a way around it RAW without an explicit statement, which has not been found yet.
"At 4th level, whenever a rageshaper gains a natural attack through the use of a polymorph spell, he can increase the damage done by that attack by one die."
Is there not a variant reading of this that suggests adding an extra die into damage instead of increasing the size? For instance, you have claws that do 1d6 and this ability "adds another die," going up to 2d6. In this case, as an abyssal bloodrager of 4th lv, you could experience the size increase going up to a d10 and then "add a die" of damage, making your claws deal 2d10.
While that is true that it is a possible variant for this specific ability. I would now rather clear up the whole FAQ shutting down any damage dice upgrades by labeling them effectively size increases. That would eliminate a myriad of possible issues with mnk using stonefist gloves. Sacred weapon, lead blades. etc etc
PRD Rageshaper wrote: Bestial Aspect (Su): At 4th level, whenever a rageshaper gains a natural attack through the use of a polymorph spell, he can increase the damage done by that attack by one die. If the spell grants multiple natural attacks, the rageshaper must choose one kind of natural attack for the ability to enhance. At 9th level, if the rageshaper's altered form grants him a new mode of movement, that movement's base speed increases by 10 feet. This is an enhancement bonus. If the rageshaper's bloodline powers already grant natural attacks or alternate modes of movement, then the bonuses granted by bestial aspect also apply to these bloodline powers. This ability replaces blood sanctuary. PRD Draconic bloodline wrote: Claws (Su): Starting at 1st level, you can grow claws as a free action. These claws are treated as natural weapons, allowing you to make two claw attacks as a full attack action using your full base attack bonus. Each of these attacks deals 1d4 points of damage plus your Strength modifier (1d3 if you are Small). At 5th level, these claws are considered magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming DR. At 7th level, the damage increases by one step to 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if you are Small). At 11th level, these claws deal an additional 1d6 points of damage of your energy type on a successful hit. You can use your claws for a number of rounds per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. I don't see the issue. Draconic gives a natural attack where the damage scales with level. Rageshaper say that if the bloodline power grants natural attacks, "then the bonuses granted by bestial aspect also apply to these bloodline powers".
This should be in the rules forum.
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