The Compassionate Antipaladin


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


I feel that the Antipaladin, while providing a great power set for villainous paragons, often gets the short end of the stick when it comes to motivation. By sheer virtue of having paladin levels, we don't bother to include deeper story, or relevant reasons for how and why the character embraced such stygian darkness. So, this week, I put something out there for all those players who got in on an evil game, and all the DMs looking for a way to spice up a villain or two.

Allow me to present, The Compassionate Antipaladin.


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The "compassionate antipaladin" looks like just another well-intentioned extremist. The well-intentioned extremist is far from a new trope. It also doesn't really work for the antipaladin.

Antipaladin Code of Conduct wrote:
An antipaladin must be of chaotic evil alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if he willingly and altruistically commits good acts. This does not mean that an antipaladin cannot take actions someone else might qualify as good, only that such actions must always be in service of his own dark ends. An antipaladin’s code requires that he place his own interests and desires above all else, as well as impose tyranny, take advantage whenever possible, and punish the good and just, provided such actions don’t interfere with his goals.

emphasis mine

A well-intentioned extremist by his very nature has... good intentions. The "compassionate antipaladin" seems to think that he's genuinely doing what's best for these people and their souls. An Antipaladin simply can't act with such good intentions, no matter how deplorable his individual actions might be, if he believes it's for the best for these other souls.

This doesn't mean that the antipaladin can't have more depth than a cut and dry murder-hobo, but he also can't be motivated by doing what's best for others and still be an antipaladin.


I see where you're coming from, Vratix, but I would disagree. Mostly because we're getting into that sticky area of absolute good, and how what the rules say may be good/evil isn't always what the players believe is good/evil.

Here's my view on it (which is not to say that my view is right, just that I want it expressed).

Taking into account the emphasis above, all of those things are happening. The character, as described, has elevated himself to the position of judge, jury, and executioner. He has no interest in the opinions of those opposing him, or in other ideas of what is right. He is going to move forward with his campaign of complete death and destruction, singling out the just, the good, and the innocent first. The wicked will still be killed, but they'll be killed only once the good are culled.

The actions pictured (wiping out any and all sentient life on as grand and total a scale as possible) isn't something that would ever be considered a good act by a sane person. Does his belief that it's "for the greater good" count as altruism, when it's very clearly embracing his own desires, and his own power to destroy, over anything else in the world?

The argument goes the other way, as well.

You have a paladin charged with wiping out evil. At what point does treating anything evil with a death sentence cease to make you a champion of good, and begin to turn you into something else? Or, as long as you're killing things which are evil, and you're telling yourself it's to protect the good in the world, can you never fall?

I don't think this is something everyone will agree on, because there are always going to be differing interpretations of what's "good enough" or "evil enough" when it comes to paladins and antipaladins.

All of that said, we do definitely agree that shallow villains are not what we need more of at our tables.


I would say, given the example above, the villain in question is Lawful Evil. They are serving what they believe to be a cause greater than themselves. That they like to do it is secondary.

And Paladins are usually focused on defending against Evil(proactively or otherwise), not just killing it.


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I played an antipaladin with the tyrant archetype. He started a cavalier with order of the shield, but when he failed his charges, and his kingdom and all his friends, family, and vassals fell to a horde of shadow creatures it broke him. The sole survivor, in a battlefield bathed in the blood of the innocents, my religious zealot NG cavalier screamed for mercy to his gods, and none answered, he begged for power to bring the fallen back, and no one answered, and then he demanded justice, and no one answered. Finally, he stood, and denounced his uncaring gods, and called upon darker powers. A god then came, and offered a deal, undeath, and power, and revenge, for servitude. My cavalier levels became anti-paladin levels, my flesh rotted, and my last memory of emotion was hatred, revenge, and anguish.


If you want to play a character whose personal intentions and "what they're supposed to do" are at odds, you really need to work with your GM about that. There's absolutely nothing wrong with "powers beyond my control want me to do evil things, but I personally would prefer to subvert them" as a character concept, there are perhaps rulesets that handle this notion better (think "Abyssal Exalted"), but everything is permissible if the GM is on board.

The whole "Antipaladins must not do good" thing is entirely holding a dark mirror to the whole "Paladins must not do evil" clause that dates back to 1st edition. The "Paladins must not do evil" thing is largely a clause to ensure that people are playing Paladins because they actually want to be a righteous warrior worthy of the title, not just because they wanted the class abilities. So it's a clause, essentially, to punish bad roleplaying.

Playing a character who is conflicted between their nature and their set task, is more an avenue for interesting RPing than the opposite. So if you want to do something like this, talk to whoever will be GMing and get their input.


Neal Litherland wrote:

I feel that the Antipaladin, while providing a great power set for villainous paragons, often gets the short end of the stick when it comes to motivation. By sheer virtue of having paladin levels, we don't bother to include deeper story, or relevant reasons for how and why the character embraced such stygian darkness. So, this week, I put something out there for all those players who got in on an evil game, and all the DMs looking for a way to spice up a villain or two.

Allow me to present, The Compassionate Antipaladin.

Doesn't work. The antipaladin falls if he commits even one altruistic good act. It doesn't matter if he is evil overall, he still falls.

Dark Archive

Pretty sure that murder, regardless of reasoning, is still evil. Also pretty sure that a goal such as "I will murder the world" is just as vile and evil when you're killing the tyrant s it is when you're killing the paragons of Good.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kahel Stormbender wrote:
Pretty sure that murder, regardless of reasoning, is still evil. Also pretty sure that a goal such as "I will murder the world" is just as vile and evil when you're killing the tyrant s it is when you're killing the paragons of Good.

In addition, motivations can be layered. One might profession (even to the point of self-deception) a motive (let's say, extreme punishment of the guilty because they deserve it) to cover up a true motive (I enjoy punishing people.)


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Neal Litherland wrote:
I see where you're coming from, Vratix, but I would disagree. Mostly because we're getting into that sticky area of absolute good, and how what the rules say may be good/evil isn't always what the players believe is good/evil.

except in Pf alignments are non-subjective absolutes.

A paladin from France and a Paladin from Germany can't smite each other regardless of how evil they think the other is being, they both still detect as lawful good.


I really don't get this. A Paladin is a paladin because they are the paragon of both law AND good. You don't casually decide to become one.. you become one because you're dedicated to the ideals a Paladin represents.

Simmilarly the Anti-Paladin isn't for casual borderline evil... it's A dedication to chaos and evil that matches that of the Paladin.


One thing I recently became aware of in the Antipaladin code of conduct is that there's a built-in loophole:

Code of Conduct wrote:
This does not mean that an antipaladin cannot take actions someone else might qualify as good, only that such actions must always be in service of his own dark ends

So, we can do "good" things so long as they're in service of our own "dark ends". That's somewhat vague, maybe the rest of the text can help?

Code of Conduct wrote:
An antipaladin’s code requires that he place his own interests and desires above all else, as well as impose tyranny, take advantage whenever possible, and punish the good and just, provided such actions don’t interfere with his goals.

So your own interests and desires supersede everything else. That, to me, indicates that an Antipaladin decides what their own "dark ends" are and it all depends on how far you can bend it. And being a chaotic-aligned class, I could see them doing exactly that.

Spoiler:

"So, John, I hear you want to be an Antipaladin, but it says here on your application form that your life goal is to marry your childhood sweetheart "Jill", have 2-3 kids, and be a well-respected member of the community. Also, being an orphan, you have a soft spot for the orphanage you grew up in and want to make annual donations to ensure it can keep operating. Now, I'm not exactly one to turn away a willing soul, so give me your best pitch on why you're 'champion of evil' material"

"Well, Jill's foster-father is a foul old man who arranged a marriage with a much-older businessman. If you give me the evil powers of the abyss, I'll show up at the wedding to object. After horrifically murdering those who stood between me and my love, I will kneel over their broken and butchered corpses and propose to her, and we will be married on the spot,"

"That's certainly hardcore enough for our purposes, but what about your long-term life goals? Settling down with kids and being a respected member of the community isn't exactly in line with how most Antipaladins envision retirement,"

"Retirement? I'll be coming home on weekends. My day job involves going on unholy crusades to slaughter, plunder, and terrorize the holy. With that said I think slave labor could really help the town's labor shortage, so I might not kill everyone on my conquests. Bottom line, the local pike industry is going to be flourishing under me thanks to all the heads I'll need to mount,"

"Fine, fine, but what about the orphanage? Honestly it's not a big deal in the grand cosmic battle between good and evil, but it's really more a matter of principle,"

"Do you want those orphans to grow up knowing father holier-than-thou as their only role model, or me as their role model?"

"Well, we would prefer it burned to ground, but I guess I'll just mark that down as 'attempting to corrupt a holy organization'. I think that covers everythin-- wait, wait, wait, it says here you once said you hated your neighbor Bill and wanted him dead. I don't think I can let that one slide,"

"Sigh, fine. Hand me the unholy blade and I'll deal with it first thing. I never thought a chaotic-aligned organization would be so strict about these sorts of things..."

Okay, while that was tongue in cheek, I could totally see someone taking the mantle of Antipaladin just for the power and chafing at the code of conduct afterwards and bending the code of conduct as much as possible to avoid being stupid evil. Maybe even do a Vigilante/Antipaladin multi-class that lives a double-life. The code of conduct is definitely a huge problem for the Antipaladin, but I think there's enough wiggle room to do some really interesting things with it without falling victim to cliche.

With all that said, I do feel that the Pathfinder Antipaladin and the Knights Templar extremist should be represented differently. An Antipaladin is the villain and he embraces it, whereas a Knights Templar extremist believes firmly that everything he does is justified and noble. They're different concepts, and I feel conflating them diminishes both.

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