Maximizing Strength


Advice


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INTRODUCTION:
I am new at pathfinder. I always play RP as a front-man fighter. The fearless and furious mountain of muscles. The man able to behead a horse at a single blow. Kill someone more by brutal force than refined technique. As you can see in this video. He kill horse by brutal force. This is my main idea of the build. Muscular warrior with one big weapon.

LIMITATIONs:
We are using almost all rule book. My char starting at level 6.
I have only 500 golds at the begining. 15 points to purchase ability scores.
My companions will be cleric and fighter.

QUESTIONs:
I would like to know how all posible ways how to maximizing charakter's strenght. I am interested in ways to maximizing hit chance/damage too. So plese advice me feats, traits, class ability, scrolls, skills,... Whatever.

IDEAs:
basic 18 str, Orc(+4str),babar(+4str/few rounds), alchemist(+4str/10min)=22(+6)static, 30(+10) occasional.
Possible max BAB with this build: 5.
Feat???(maybe cleave to deal with group of weak enemies or something, power attack,...)


Later go into Dragon Disciple. Gives even more Strengh. You need spontaneous arcane casting for this.

Options are Sorcerer, Bard or Skald (a Bard / Barbarian hybrid class). You need only a 1 level dip to unlock Dragon Disciple.

Sorcerer doesnt allow for casting in armor, but has some nice low-level spells.

Bard allows casting in light armor, Skald in medium Armor. they have the same spell list.

4 Barbarian, 1 Sorcerer, then into Dragon Disciple is a classic.

Liberty's Edge

Barbarian/Alchemist works real well for this. So does Blodrager/Alchemist, which would allow for Dragon Disciple without bothering with Sorcerer (though personally, I'd stick with Alchemist with just a small dip in Barbarian...buffing yourself with extracts is wonderful).

In either case, Bull's Strength and Enlarge Person are available spells eventually (Anyone with 4 levels of Alchemist and Int 12 can have them now), adding another +6. That makes for a 36, I believe, and is very doable on a Barbarian 1/Alchemist (Beastmorph/Vivisectionist) 5. Which is a solid build in many other ways, too.

For Feats, Power Attack is great. Raging Vitality is wonderful on Barbarians, Furious Focus is a solid call if going two-handed (though, if going primarily Alchemist you could grab natural weapons instead). Heavy Armor Proficiency is also good, since I doubt you'll have much of a Dex modifier if focusing on Str to this extent.


Power attack is always a must. If you use a 2 handed weapon, that is.

Look into the mutant fighter, so you may not need to get an alchemist level...

Also you might want to sit down and study the Synthesist Summoner...

The BEST MELEE BUILD with 15 stats point! And you might want to play a gnome :P


Guru-Meditation wrote:

Later go into Dragon Disciple. Gives even more Strengh. You need spontaneous arcane casting for this.

Options are Sorcerer, Bard or Skald (a Bard / Barbarian hybrid class). You need only a 1 level dip to unlock Dragon Disciple.

Sorcerer doesnt allow for casting in armor, but has some nice low-level spells.

Bard allows casting in light armor, Skald in medium Armor. they have the same spell list.

4 Barbarian, 1 Sorcerer, then into Dragon Disciple is a classic.

So if I fully understand. You go DD because 2 and 4 level str ability boost.

Bard because of DD and better buffing spells as Heroism, Inspire courage, haste... And why 4 level of barbarian instead of 1???


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Barbarian/Alchemist works real well for this. So does Blodrager/Alchemist, which would allow for Dragon Disciple without bothering with Sorcerer (though personally, I'd stick with Alchemist with just a small dip in Barbarian...buffing yourself with extracts is wonderful).

In either case, Bull's Strength and Enlarge Person are available spells eventually (Anyone with 4 levels of Alchemist and Int 12 can have them now), adding another +6. That makes for a 36, I believe, and is very doable on a Barbarian 1/Alchemist (Beastmorph/Vivisectionist) 5. Which is a solid build in many other ways, too.

For Feats, Power Attack is great. Raging Vitality is wonderful on Barbarians, Furious Focus is a solid call if going two-handed (though, if going primarily Alchemist you could grab natural weapons instead). Heavy Armor Proficiency is also good, since I doubt you'll have much of a Dex modifier if focusing on Str to this extent.

Thank you for many good points ;).

Bloodrager is very good for my business. Especially when combined with alchemist(and Bull's Strength) :)

Enlarge Person - why you think is that good?
Why use natural weapons instead of big weapon?

Raging Vitality and Power Attack will do job well.

Beastform Mutagen - Is it allows you to let your ability scores when you are shaped(or using improved version - beast shape I)?

I would like to wear (mithrill) fullplate. Or something that keeps me alive few rounds... or I just have to be first who slain all enemies :-D

What about Ragechemist's mutagen bonus?


Mr. Dodo wrote:

Power attack is always a must. If you use a 2 handed weapon, that is.

Look into the mutant fighter, so you may not need to get an alchemist level...

Also you might want to sit down and study the Synthesist Summoner...

The BEST MELEE BUILD with 15 stats point! And you might want to play a gnome :P

It looks like super difficult class :/.

What is the main idea of build Synthesist Summoner?

Silver Crusade

The Synthesist basically turns the Eidolon from the summoner into living bio-armor. It significantly ups your stats and provides some other benefits, too.

You can also pick This Bloodline's Power with This Feat Chain to get an inherent bonus to Strength. +4 when you buy it and +6 later.

It costs 3 feats to get that far and has some Charisma requirements (I suggest an 11 Cha to start and using a +4 Enhancement item to finish up.) If you buy the Charisma up and invest skills you can also use Intimidate to do some pretty wicked stuff on the battlefield, which would seem to go thematically with your approach.

[Edit]Also, you can pick up one of my favorite abilities in the game, Body Bludgeon form being a Barbarian, and the Archetype Drunken Brute to synchronize well with your Alchemist.


Just imagine a gundam, or the Ironman armor... pretty badass, huh?

The main classe feature of the summoner, the eidolon, becomes one with you (being your armor), and you get to fight with HIS body instead of yours... and it's fairly easy to bump his stat/size to make that body a perfect leaping (yeah, we like full attacks on charge!) meat-grinding machine.

15 stats are pretty low, and your character is doomed to have a weakness... Not a lot of HP due to CON, or a lower CA due to DEX... and as a multiclass melee specialist your will save will always be pretty low... You might not have a way of reaching an enemy and so on

WIth the summoner is easyer to cover for this things, to get wings and everything else... and you get to use the summoner spell list, wich is AWESOME

Dark Archive

Personally, I'm very tempted to suggest;

Bloodrager (Primalist Archetype) 5/Dragon Disciple 4/Bloodrager+

Look at running with the Abyssal or Arcane bloodlines imo, take Eldritch Heritage and then later Improved Eldritc Heritage for the Orc Bloodline, grab a robe of Arcane Heritage and enjoy your insane strength plus rage, spells, free enlarges or other such spells. With a two hander and power attack no horse head will remain attached when you are near.

At level 10, assuming you start with a 16 Str (due to the low point build) you could be running with a 32 Strength purely from self buffs without even relying on items (in case it's a low wealth game, as might be implied by the 500g starting cash). You have plenty of rounds of rage to keep that up as well as the possibility of picking up some rage powers that can really work nicely with the build.


Ade Eda wrote:


Thank you for many good points ;).

Bloodrager is very good for my business. Especially when combined with alchemist(and Bull's Strength) :)

Enlarge Person - why you think is that good?
Why use natural weapons instead of big weapon?

Raging Vitality and Power Attack will do job well.

Beastform Mutagen - Is it allows you to let your ability scores when you are shaped(or using improved version - beast shape I)?

I would like to wear (mithrill) fullplate. Or something that keeps me alive few rounds... or I just have to be first who slain all enemies :-D

What about Ragechemist's mutagen bonus?

Enlarge Person is a fun spell. It gives a slight Strength boost for the upped size, but its joys lie in two other aspects:

One, you're using LARGE weapons. Your 2d6 greatsword is now a 3d6 awesomesword.
Two, your reach is now 10'. That's a lot of real estate that others have to worry about. Or if you're using a reach weapon, it's squares 15 and 20' away that turn awkward ... and that d10 glaive is now a 2d8 painstick.

It's possible to get away with 'lesser' armour. The classic barbarian builds rely on the breastplate, and rage is a -2AC anyway.

As far as being the first who slays all enemies? Well, get 12 barbarian levels, and you too can join the many who have Come and Get Me as a rage power. Enemies get +4 to hit and to hurt you ... as long as they don't mind triggering an attack of opportunity FROM YOU to do so.

Silver Crusade

Qaianna wrote:
As far as being the first who slays all enemies? Well, get 12 barbarian levels, and you too can join the many who have Come and Get Me as a rage power. Enemies get +4 to hit and to hurt you ... as long as they don't mind triggering an attack of opportunity FROM YOU to do so.

You'll need several Attacks of Opportunity to make this effective. Usually a high Dexterity and Combat Reflexes to go the easiest route.

Liberty's Edge

Ade Eda wrote:
Thank you for many good points ;).

No problem. :)

Bloodrager is very good for my business. Especially when combined with alchemist(and Bull's Strength) :)

Yeah, its shiny.

Ade Eda wrote:
Enlarge Person - why you think is that good?

As others note, Reach and improved weapon dice are very solid.

Ade Eda wrote:
Why use natural weapons instead of big weapon?

Well, Feral Mutagen gives you three attacks, all at full bonus, so they're more likely to hit than the multiple attacks you'll eventually get from BAB.

So...three attacks doing a total of, at Str 30, with Power Attack, do 2d6+1d8+42, assuming they all hit, while a single big attack would do 2d6+24.

Now, once your BAB is +6 and gives you a second attack at -5, that becomes 4d6+48 from the 'one big attack' but that's if both attacks from your Greatsword hit, which is less likely than the three natural attacks hitting.

Now, natural attacks tend to only work while mutagen is active, and require more money to enhance, and make your attacks of opportunity better, so there's definitely reason to satick with a Greatsword...I was just noting the other option.

Ade Eda wrote:
Raging Vitality and Power Attack will do job well.

Indeed. :)

Ade Eda wrote:
Beastform Mutagen - Is it allows you to let your ability scores when you are shaped(or using improved version - beast shape I)?

Not exactly. It gives you some of the bonuses (but not stats) of Beast Shape like senses or movement rates while using your mutagen. Eventually it can get you pounce, which is amazing.

Ade Eda wrote:
I would like to wear (mithrill) fullplate. Or something that keeps me alive few rounds... or I just have to be first who slain all enemies :-D

Yeah, that's a solid call.

Ade Eda wrote:
What about Ragechemist's mutagen bonus?

Ragechemist is terrible, and makes you fall unconscious real quick, way before its bonuses are that helpful. Do not take it.


Which advantige exacly brings me Eldritch Heritage(abyssal or orc)?

So, what we have?

SUMMARY
Name: Xyz
Alignment: Any
Race: Orc
Classes:
-> Alchemist 1(Vivisectionist)
-> Bloodrager 5
Hit Dice: 1d8,5d10

Point to buy attributes: 15
Attributes:
Attribut | stat | bonus | point to buy
Strength | 17 | +3 | 13
Dexterity | 14 | +5 | 5
Constitution | 12 | -1 | 2
Inteligence | 7 | -2 | -4
Wisdom | 7 | -2 | -4
Charisma | 13 | +1 | 3

[Statistics]
(with bonus from items, race, lvl points):

[Strenght] | 22 | +6 (race,lvl)
[Dexterity] | 14 | +2
[Constitution] | 12 | +1
[Inteligence] | 5 | -3
[Wisdom] | 5 | -3
[Charisma] | 11 | +0

[Traits]

Dayrunner - Orcs refuse to yield to any foe, including the sun. Some spend hour upon hour glaring at the sun until their ruined eyes acclimatize to bright light. Orcs with this racial trait take a –2 penalty on all ranged attack rolls. This racial trait replaces light sensitivity.
Fate's Favored - Whenever you are under the effect of a luck bonus of any kind, that bonus increases by 1.

[Feats]
Raging Vitality
Power Attack
Combat Reflexes(to get more attacks, while enlarged)

[Combat]
Weapon:Greater sword
BAB:+5
Str:36(22+6+4+4) | +13
AB=5+6=11
AB(rage,mutagen,bear edurance,enlagred)=5+6+3+2+2+1-1=18
Damage(enlarged,buffed)=3d6+21 and reach 10(next attack if haste is on)
AC:18(10+6(breastplate)+2(dex))

Almost all agree with bloodrager/alchemist. What I do not want to is natural attacks build, because of RP.(i know it should be more effective,but i want to swords man feeling(I and my weapon relationship). I see in this build one disadvantage: medium BaB.


I'd suggest 2 levels of Alchemist with the Ragechemist archetype for an extra +2 Strength from Mutagen. Also gives you a Discovery like Infusion or Infuse Mutagen (so you can have some stored up in case you don't get an hour to make another one between fights).

Silver Crusade

You may swap alchemist for brawler (mutagen mauler) or fighter (donotrememberwhat)


Ade Eda wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

Barbarian/Alchemist works real well for this. So does Blodrager/Alchemist, which would allow for Dragon Disciple without bothering with Sorcerer (though personally, I'd stick with Alchemist with just a small dip in Barbarian...buffing yourself with extracts is wonderful).

In either case, Bull's Strength and Enlarge Person are available spells eventually (Anyone with 4 levels of Alchemist and Int 12 can have them now), adding another +6. That makes for a 36, I believe, and is very doable on a Barbarian 1/Alchemist (Beastmorph/Vivisectionist) 5. Which is a solid build in many other ways, too.

For Feats, Power Attack is great. Raging Vitality is wonderful on Barbarians, Furious Focus is a solid call if going two-handed (though, if going primarily Alchemist you could grab natural weapons instead). Heavy Armor Proficiency is also good, since I doubt you'll have much of a Dex modifier if focusing on Str to this extent.

Thank you for many good points ;).

Bloodrager is very good for my business. Especially when combined with alchemist(and Bull's Strength) :)

Enlarge Person - why you think is that good?
Why use natural weapons instead of big weapon?

Raging Vitality and Power Attack will do job well.

Beastform Mutagen - Is it allows you to let your ability scores when you are shaped(or using improved version - beast shape I)?

I would like to wear (mithrill) fullplate. Or something that keeps me alive few rounds... or I just have to be first who slain all enemies :-D

What about Ragechemist's mutagen bonus?

Bloodrager is ok but go mutation warrior instead of alchemist, it synergizes way better if you just want to lay down punishment with melee prowess. Besides as an orc you get negatives in all your mental abilities which will be a problem because you need charisma for bloodrager and int for alchemist while mutation warrior doesn't need int at all, my suggestion is, go human and profit, but that's also because I would never allow an orc in one of my games unless it was evil themed.

You want someone who really hits hard? Do this: half elf mutation warrior 3 bloodrager 3 (Abyssal). Switch the adaptability racial trait with Ancestral Arms and get proficient with a bastard sword. Get a large one and as soon as possible get yourself an Effortless Lace. Profit because the amount of dice you'll roll will be impressive and supported by huge str to booth, and no negatives to hit...

You can do this even better as a tiefling but you'll have to waste a feat.

P.S.

Don't just max out strength: it may seem effective but it's ALWAYS better to have a well rounded character able to shore up its weaknesses (20 points buy half elf: Str18/Dex12/Con14/Int8/Wis10/Cha14, unless you think the game will end before lvl 13+)


Rogar Valertis wrote:
Ade Eda wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

Barbarian/Alchemist works real well for this. So does Blodrager/Alchemist, which would allow for Dragon Disciple without bothering with Sorcerer (though personally, I'd stick with Alchemist with just a small dip in Barbarian...buffing yourself with extracts is wonderful).

In either case, Bull's Strength and Enlarge Person are available spells eventually (Anyone with 4 levels of Alchemist and Int 12 can have them now), adding another +6. That makes for a 36, I believe, and is very doable on a Barbarian 1/Alchemist (Beastmorph/Vivisectionist) 5. Which is a solid build in many other ways, too.

For Feats, Power Attack is great. Raging Vitality is wonderful on Barbarians, Furious Focus is a solid call if going two-handed (though, if going primarily Alchemist you could grab natural weapons instead). Heavy Armor Proficiency is also good, since I doubt you'll have much of a Dex modifier if focusing on Str to this extent.

Thank you for many good points ;).

Bloodrager is very good for my business. Especially when combined with alchemist(and Bull's Strength) :)

Enlarge Person - why you think is that good?
Why use natural weapons instead of big weapon?

Raging Vitality and Power Attack will do job well.

Beastform Mutagen - Is it allows you to let your ability scores when you are shaped(or using improved version - beast shape I)?

I would like to wear (mithrill) fullplate. Or something that keeps me alive few rounds... or I just have to be first who slain all enemies :-D

What about Ragechemist's mutagen bonus?

Bloodrager is ok but go mutation warrior instead of alchemist, it synergizes way better if you just want to lay down punishment with melee prowess. Besides as an orc you get negatives in all your mental abilities which will be a problem because you need charisma for bloodrager and int for alchemist while mutation warrior doesn't need int at all, my suggestion is, go human and profit, but that's also because I would never allow...

Wow! Thats what i looking for... mutation warrior + level babarian/bloodrager. Thank you :)


Quote:

You want someone who really hits hard? Do this: half elf mutation warrior 3 bloodrager 3 (Abyssal). Switch the adaptability racial trait with Ancestral Arms and get proficient with a bastard sword. Get a large one and as soon as possible get yourself an Effortless Lace. Profit because the amount of dice you'll roll will be impressive and supported by huge str to booth, and no negatives to hit...

You can do this even better as a tiefling but you'll have to waste a feat.

P.S.

Don't just max out strength: it may seem effective but it's ALWAYS better to have a well rounded character able to shore up its weaknesses (20 points buy half elf: Str18/Dex12/Con14/Int8/Wis10/Cha14, unless you think the game will end before lvl 13+)

I am very glad you here. Thank you very much. That is a lot great ideas.

You cant wear one class larger... Is it bastard sword an exeption?

Am I right?
when you wield it two-handed Bastard Sword has 1d10, large version 2d8, huge version 3d8(when enlarged).

When I get an Effortless Lace, I havent penalty to wield one class larger Bastard Sword.

Dark Archive

Ade Eda wrote:

Which advantige exacly brings me Eldritch Heritage(abyssal or orc)?

If you're really looking for max Strength then Eldritch Heritage Orc will get you a very nice scaling bonus to hit, damage and will saves from the Touch of Rage ability (which with the Community Minded trait will actually last long enough to make it worthwhile) and then Improved Eldritch Heritage (taking the 9th level bloodline ability) will get you another +2 Strength, eventually scaling up to +6 and it's an inherent modifer which is relatively rare outside Tomes of stat increase. You should also happily meet the requirements since as a Bloodrager you're a Charisma focused caster.


Rogar Valertis wrote:
bloodrager 3 (Abyssal)

Why do you think Abyssal is the right choise of bloodline?

Orc bloodline seems better... For condition, that GM allows you to pick it...

Suthainn wrote:


If you're really looking for max Strength then Eldritch Heritage Orc will get you a very nice scaling bonus to hit, damage and will saves from the Touch of Rage ability (which with the Community Minded trait will actually last long enough to make it worthwhile) and then Improved Eldritch Heritage (taking the 9th level bloodline ability) will get you another +2 Strength, eventually scaling up to +6 and it's an inherent modifer which is relatively rare outside Tomes of stat increase. You should also happily meet the requirements since as a Bloodrager you're a Charisma focused caster. (Abyssal)

How do you think Improved Eldritch Heritage work? Abyssal's Strength of the Abyss doesn't stack with ork's Strength of the Beast. Both of bonuses have rare inherent bonus... But good point :)


Ade Eda wrote:
Quote:

You want someone who really hits hard? Do this: half elf mutation warrior 3 bloodrager 3 (Abyssal). Switch the adaptability racial trait with Ancestral Arms and get proficient with a bastard sword. Get a large one and as soon as possible get yourself an Effortless Lace. Profit because the amount of dice you'll roll will be impressive and supported by huge str to booth, and no negatives to hit...

You can do this even better as a tiefling but you'll have to waste a feat.

P.S.

Don't just max out strength: it may seem effective but it's ALWAYS better to have a well rounded character able to shore up its weaknesses (20 points buy half elf: Str18/Dex12/Con14/Int8/Wis10/Cha14, unless you think the game will end before lvl 13+)

I am very glad you here. Thank you very much. That is a lot great ideas.

You cant wear one class larger... Is it bastard sword an exeption?

Am I right?
when you wield it two-handed Bastard Sword has 1d10, large version 2d8, huge version 3d8(when enlarged).

When I get an Effortless Lace, I havent penalty to wield one class larger Bastard Sword.

Yep: you start with a large bastard sword dealing 2d8 dmg. It's a one handed weapon so you can whield it 2 handed as a large version. This will give you a -2 negative to hit BUT with effortless lace (a nifty little wondrous item costing just 2500 gp) that negative modifier will be erased.

Then you enlarge yourself either via bloodline while raging (abyssal bloodrager lvl 4) or buying and using a wand of enlarge person (something a bloodrager can use even at lvl 1...), and then your bastard sword starts dealing 3d8 dmg per hit. THEN you get an impact enchatment on the bastard sword (obviously after the mandatory +1 enanchment bonus) and suddenly you deal 3d8 per hit and 4d8 while enlarged, going this route I'd consider the vital strike chain of feats (you just hit once with a huge amount of dices but at your max attack bonus so you should almost always hit and cause huge damage).

P.S.

If you go mutagen warrior/bloodrager think how you want to mix the levels: my suggestion is to reach lvl 4 in bloodrager and then go mutagen warrior all the way. If you do this you should probably stop at Cha 12 and spend those 3 points you save this way to boost your Wis or Int a little (Wisdom is more useful for a frontliner... way to many save or suck spells based on will saves).


Ade Eda wrote:
Rogar Valertis wrote:
bloodrager 3 (Abyssal)

Why do you think Abyssal is the right choise of bloodline?

Orc bloodline seems better... For condition, that GM allows you to pick it...

Because you need to think in terms of actual play not theorycraft. Sure Orc bloodline starts to get nice things later on, but abyssal gives you enlarge early. AND getting the mutation warrior progression in mutagens is way better imo, although you'll have to ask your GM for permission to skip the mutagen choice at levels 12-15 (a mutation warrior gets alchemist discoveries at level 7-11-15-19, so with a bit of bloodrager, you'll get 3 discoveries at most, the good choices for what you have in mind are grand mutagen, greater mutagen, infuse mutagen and wings, but you can only get greater mutagen at lvl 12 and grand mutagen at level 16, so you'll need to ask your GM permission to dealy the aquisition of those mutagens 1 level).

Edit: I didn't see you are limited to a 15 point buy... Consider very carefully what you want to do, because if your GM wants he could have you mind controlled and killing your whole party with some simple spells. In other words you need to boost your will saves somehow.


Rogar Valertis wrote:
Sure Orc bloodline starts to get nice things later on, but abyssal gives you enlarge early.

Sorry, I still do not see the rule that makes you larger. Am I looking to wrong rulebook or I missed somehow? Link. EDIT: or Is it aberrant and elongate means in this cause enlarged?

For boosting saves I have some suggestions. 2 level of Paladin(but I hate dump blind good RP), or Sacred Tattoo+Fate's Favored...

EDIT:
-Charisma based spell Bestow Grace...
-Cloak of Resistance(1000G)

Rogar Valertis wrote:
I'd consider the vital strike chain of feats (you just hit once with a huge amount of dices but at your max attack bonus so you should almost always hit and cause huge damage).

Yeah, nice. That seems as considered plan :)

Suggestion of ability scores looks like:
STR 15
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 7
WIS 10
CHA 14


Ade Eda wrote:
Rogar Valertis wrote:
Sure Orc bloodline starts to get nice things later on, but abyssal gives you enlarge early.

Sorry, I still do not see the rule that makes you larger. Am I looking to wrong rulebook or I missed somehow? Link.

For boosting saves I have some suggestions. 2 level of Paladin(but I hate dump blind good RP), or Sacred Tattoo+Fate's Favored...

EDIT:
-Charisma based spell Bestow Grace...
-Cloak of Resistance(1000G)

Rogar Valertis wrote:
I'd consider the vital strike chain of feats (you just hit once with a huge amount of dices but at your max attack bonus so you should almost always hit and cause huge damage).

Yeah, nice. That seems as considered plan :)

Suggestion of ability scores looks like:
STR 15
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 7
WIS 10
CHA 14

Blodrager Abyssal Bloodline

It's not the same as the sorcerer bloodline.

Question do you thyink you need many levels in bloodrager? You get access to rage at lvl 1 and then you can always use wands of spells in the BR spell list. So, considering how you only have 15 points to spend I'd just get 1 lvl in bloorager, dump cha and have starting stats like these at lvl 1

Half elf lvl 01

STR 18 (16+2)
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 07

Actually you could just go dwarf (you get automatic proficency with the dwarven waraxe which is basically the same as the Bastard Sword and has way better defenses against spells and access to racial feats improving your combat ability like the Dwarven Fury and the whole dwarven hatred racial combat style)

Dwarf lvl 01

STR 18
DEX 12
CON 14 (12+2)
INT 08
WIS 12 (10+2)
CHA 05 (7-2)

Edit: Dumping levels in paladin too is not something I would do. Try limiting yourself to max 2 different classes. Multiclassing has costs in terms of efficency in PF.


Rogar Valertis wrote:
Question do you thyink you need many levels in bloodrager? You get access to rage at lvl 1 and then you can always use wands of spells in the BR spell list. So, considering how you only have 15 points to spend I'd just get 1 lvl in bloorager, dump cha and have starting stats like these at lvl 1

Maybe i need maybe not...

We can dump charisma and level od BR. I have one against...
Bloodrage duration on level 1: 4+ 2CON, on lvl 4 10+ 2CON...
If I correctly understand, Community Minded Trait can solve this duration problems...

I used to think about Dragon disciple... Only reason to have 4 levels of BR.

Fighter have awesome offence feats. So if we dont think about DD, we can fully dip into the fighter.


Ade Eda wrote:
Rogar Valertis wrote:
Question do you thyink you need many levels in bloodrager? You get access to rage at lvl 1 and then you can always use wands of spells in the BR spell list. So, considering how you only have 15 points to spend I'd just get 1 lvl in bloorager, dump cha and have starting stats like these at lvl 1

Maybe i need maybe not...

We can dump charisma and level od BR. I have one against...
Bloodrage duration on level 1: 4+ 2CON, on lvl 4 10+ 2CON...
If I correctly understand, Community Minded Trait can solve this duration problems...

I used to think about Dragon disciple... Only reason to have 4 levels of BR.

Fighter have awesome offence feats. So if we dont think about DD, we can fully dip into the fighter.

-You need cha for BR if you intend to cast spells (which is very nice in PF admittedly), but having to branch out in cha while being a melee character on 15 point buy is too MAD imo. You NEED good phisical stats AND you would need to spend points in cha too. So, considering the limitations you are under I'd say scrap charisma altogether, get only 1 lvl of BR (for rage, the ability to use enlarge person wands and fast movement which is very nice to have for a melee character) the go mutation warrior all the way with a large weapon (bastard sword or dwarven waraxe, when enlarged d10 is actually better than d6, so it son becomes better than whielding a large 2 handed sword which you CANNOT do under normal conditions unless you choose some archetypes or races).

-Community Minded says:Any morale bonuses you confer upon your allies through your own abilities or spells last 2 additional rounds. Rage is not something you give to your allies so it doesn't work. It's excellent for bards though.


@Rogar Valertis: Completely agree. Which one of bloodline power worth for just one level?

I dont understant What feat Dwarven Seething do. When you hit by another creature you can apply defensive training or your hatred. Is not it doing automatically? Or just Dwarven Seething remove race type condition...

Is it mean Dwarven Fury gives you +4 dodge bonus to AC and +2 racial bonus on attack rolls against all?!?

Silver Crusade

@Ade Edah: This is what it will cost you to get the Eldritch Heritage line of feats into Strength...

Because of your build, I suggest sticking with Orc. It's relevant to your concept as described (Orc SMASH!), and it provides some really great benefits that aren't overlapped by your other abilities. This is the breakdown.

Looking at Eldritch Heritage we can see that you need a pre-requisite of Skill Focus in the Bloodline's bonus skill. So we check the Bloodline. It looks like you need Skill Focus(Survival) in order to get started. Anytime after Level 3 you can get Eldritch Heritage once you have Skill Focus (and a 13 Charisma).

Since Rage adds a morale bonus to stats, and Touch of Rage adds a morale bonus to directly to attack and damage, these benefits overlap to create a fairly monstrous addition to your outgoing damage. Further, you can use the Bloodline ability when you're otherwise unable to Rage, or to shore up an ally with some buffs.

By the time you reach Level 11 you'll want to have an effective Charisma of 15 and pick up (at 11 exactly if possible) Improved Eldritch Heritage for the bonus to Strength. This is where you're done. Just let the bonuses continue to scale as you level.

If your GM will allow you to buy equipment, then you can afford to start off with an 11 Charisma, then purchase a +2 Charisma item (You shouldn't have too much competition for those slots.) This will get you the 13 you need for your first Heritage feat. Later you can upgrade that to a +4 item before also upgrading that feat to Improved.

If you can manage a 12 Intelligence, then Alchemist extracts can be priceless as a barbarian because of this one archetype: Drunken Brute.

Drunken Brute wrote:
While raging, the drunken brute can drink a potion, or a tankard of ale or similar quantity of alcohol, as a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

This allows you to consume your potions/extracts with little to no risk and without losing your action to attack. (This can be funny when you enlarge and push someone else into your ally's pit. It's hilarious when you accidentally fall in, too.) Seriously, though, a lot of really good options are found in low level spells. Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Firebelly, Long Arm, Shield, and those are just a few of the combat ones.

You can further fortify your save weaknesses with Fortified Drinker. Which has an amazing effect and duration for a trait.


-Orc racials are +4str and -2int/-2wis/-2cha.

-Why are people referring to sorcerer bloodlines? Bloodragers have their own different set of bloodlines and unless I'm mistaken you can't mix them without resorting to feats.

-Eldritch Heritage allows you to get the first level of the orc bloodline from the sorcerer list, sure, but you can't progress. Besides in order to meet the prerequisites for Eldritch Heritage with an orc you'll need to spend 7 points at creation. Considering how this is a character on a 15 points buy that would leave it with 8 points to spend in other abilities and the OP wants a character able to dish a lot of damage in melee and survive, which means it needs good phisical stats, and dumping int and wisdom to 07 (or 05 in the orc case) is something I would never suggest. In real play having low wis means an early tpk against anyone with good enchantment spells, unless the GM decides to totally pull on his punches.

-I stand by my earlier suggestion: half elf, dwarf or human are better than orc in this case. You don't just need to dish out damage you also need to be able to survive a few blows/spells and it's inevitable you'll be hit.

-The dwarven hatred racial feats allow you to use your racials against anyone who hits you.
Basically as a swift action to activate the syle:
Dwarven hatred style allows increases your hatred racial trait against orcs and goblinoids to +2 and it also works on damage. It's a fairly limited ability (unless you know you are going to face a lot of orcs&goblins... then it's awesome)
Dwarven Seething allows you to apply those bonus above against ANYONE who hits you (but just one opponent at the time) OR you can choose to use your defensive training (+4 dodge AC bonus... which is seriously awesome) against said enemy.
Dwarven fury is where things get even better. When someone hits you you get Dwarven Seething working BUT now it activates both the +2 to hit and damage and the +4 dodge bous to AC and THIS WORKS AGAINST ANY NUMBER OF OPPONENTS...

Edit:

Example 01: Gotrek the dwarf fighter with dwarven hatred style is facing Brinky the unusually cruel the local gobling bully. Normally Gotrek would have a +1 bonus to hit Brinky due to his hatred racial trait but IF GOTREK SPENDS A SWIFT ACTION to activate dwarven hatred style Gotrek now gains a +2 racial bonus to hit and damage orcs and goblinoids. Looks like Brinky is in for a world of pain...

Example 02: After dealing with Brinky, Gotrek goes back to town, gets drunk and starts a brawl. He tries to hit Bob the man at arms, a human watchman and, while drunk assumes the stance for dwarven hatred style, but it does nothing because Bob is a human, not an orc or a goblinoid.

Example 03: After sobering up Gotrek gets out of the town's prison and decides to go around murdering some more monsters in order to steal their stuff. He needs the money to buy more booze after all. He gets lucky and finds Luke and Mel 2 local miscreants splitting their ill gotten gains. By now Gotrek has sobered up and this time he spends a swift action and activates dwarven seething. He enters the fray against the 2 human bandits and has no advantages until Mel manages to hit him with his cudgel causing some damage. At this point Gotrek can choose to gain the effect of the hatred racial trait against Mel OR to apply the defensive training racial trait against him. He opts for the latter but it doesn't work against Luke, who later manages to jab him in the face. Now Gotrek can apply one of his racial traits against Luke, but in so doing he would have to stop defensive training against Mel...

Example 04: A few months of Gotrek's lifestyle have made him way tougher than he was before taking up a life of plundering the weak. Only his temper hasn't improved. At all. So, when Mel and Luke try to ambush him for some much deserved revenge sfter he broke their ribs and stole their hard earned money he's ready for them. He calmly assumes the stance for dwarven hatred style spending a swift action and this gives Luke the time to shoot him, grazing the dwarf's temple with a crossbow bolt while Mel charges into melee. Gotrek shrugs and prepares to face Mel. He gets both defensive training and hatred against luke but not against Mel. If Mel manages to hit him though Gotrek can apply his racial abilities against him while keeping the same abilities working against Luke too.

Silver Crusade

@Rogar Valertis:

Rogar Valertis wrote:

-Orc racials are +4str and -2int/-2wis/-2cha.

-Why are people referring to sorcerer bloodlines? Bloodragers have their own different set of bloodlines and unless I'm mistaken you can't mix them without resorting to feats.

-Eldritch Heritage allows you to get the first level of the orc bloodline from the sorcerer list, sure, but you can't progress. Besides in order to meet the prerequisites for Eldritch Heritage with an orc you'll need to spend 7 points at creation. Considering how this is a character on a 15 points buy that would leave it with 8 points to spend in other abilities and the OP wants a character able to dish a lot of damage in melee and survive, which means it needs good phisical stats, and dumping int and wisdom to 07 (or 05 in the orc case) is something I would never suggest. In real play having low wis means an early tpk against anyone with good enchantment spells, unless the GM decides to totally pull on his punches.

I assume by "people" you mean me. And I refer to it because the title was Maximizing Strength and the class mentioned was Barbarian. Combining Barbarian and Alchemist is a way to get phenomenal amounts of strength fairly easily. Bloodrager is a good class. I don't see any reason to argue that point and have not. Barbarian/Alchemist is a different approach. It's okay to have more than one approach and present options.

I agree that going straight Orc is not optimal. I wouldn't have chosen it either. 15 points is indeed a difficult build, especially since it costs 17 points to get a single 18. The GM clearly is trying to get his players to spread their points around more than going top-heavy in one category.

Multi-classing a stat-starved build can be very difficult, especially when other classes that add complimentary benefits tend to use different mechanisms. Also, you may have failed to click on the Improved Eldritch Heritage link I provided which shows you can select the Level 3 or 9 power. (+4 Strength if you choose, when you select it.)

By Combining a few carefully chosen Archetypes between Barbarian and Alchemist you can get some excellent synergy with very efficient action economy. Mutagens and Extracts can all be drunk as a move action while surrounded by enemies to safely provide instant benefits before attacking or recovery after. These are good options to consider.

While the Bloodrager gets access to the bloodlines and can spontaneously cast, he has to sacrifice his action to do so, which reduces the amount of physical attacking that happens, Buffs the character has to spend a turn applying instead of attacking reduce combat effectiveness. Sure, there are some great advantages. I'm not insulting the Bloodrager class or those who prefer it.

When I read this:

Ade Eda wrote:

INTRODUCTION:

I am new at pathfinder. I always play RP as a front-man fighter. The fearless and furious mountain of muscles. The man able to behead a horse at a single blow. Kill someone more by brutal force than refined technique. As you can see in this video. He kill horse by brutal force. This is my main idea of the build. Muscular warrior with one big weapon.

And this:

Ade Eda wrote:

IDEAs:

basic 18 str, Orc(+4str),babar(+4str/few rounds), alchemist(+4str/10min)=22(+6)static, 30(+10) occasional.
Possible max BAB with this build: 5.
Feat???(maybe cleave to deal with group of weak enemies or something, power attack,...)

I stayed close to the original idea with easy to incorporate advantages when presenting options.

Perhaps that clears up your questions?

Grand Lodge

Primalist Draconic Bloodrager who eventually takes dragon disciple 4 levels. He will get work on getting improved Eldritch heritage Orc for the bonus to Str. Continue bloodrager till you get greater bloodrage.

Trade off breath weapon and wings. You get breath weapon back via Dragon Disciple. (Just less uses a day) and you can get scrolls of fly easy enough. Wings aren't impressive. Take greater beast totem line for pounce.

When you bloodline reaches lvl 16 you get form of the dragon 2 when you rage...at this point your str will be roughly 40ish with 5 natural attacks and pounce. Enjoy ripping everything to shreds.


ErrantPursuit wrote:

@Rogar Valertis:

Rogar Valertis wrote:

-Orc racials are +4str and -2int/-2wis/-2cha.

-Why are people referring to sorcerer bloodlines? Bloodragers have their own different set of bloodlines and unless I'm mistaken you can't mix them without resorting to feats.

-Eldritch Heritage allows you to get the first level of the orc bloodline from the sorcerer list, sure, but you can't progress. Besides in order to meet the prerequisites for Eldritch Heritage with an orc you'll need to spend 7 points at creation. Considering how this is a character on a 15 points buy that would leave it with 8 points to spend in other abilities and the OP wants a character able to dish a lot of damage in melee and survive, which means it needs good phisical stats, and dumping int and wisdom to 07 (or 05 in the orc case) is something I would never suggest. In real play having low wis means an early tpk against anyone with good enchantment spells, unless the GM decides to totally pull on his punches.

I assume by "people" you mean me. And I refer to it because the title was Maximizing Strength and the class mentioned was Barbarian. Combining Barbarian and Alchemist is a way to get phenomenal amounts of strength fairly easily. Bloodrager is a good class. I don't see any reason to argue that point and have not. Barbarian/Alchemist is a different approach. It's okay to have more than one approach and present options.

I agree that going straight Orc is not optimal. I wouldn't have chosen it either. 15 points is indeed a difficult build, especially since it costs 17 points to get a single 18. The GM clearly is trying to get his players to spread their points around more than going top-heavy in one category.

Multi-classing a stat-starved build can be very difficult, especially when other classes that add complimentary benefits tend to use different mechanisms. Also, you may have failed to click on the Improved...

I meant anyone who suggested sorcerer bloodlines, I wasn't aware it was only you (I didn't pay too much attention evidently, sorry for that).

As for the rest we agree orc is actually a terrible choice, it gets great str but the rest is severely lacking. This without considering the RP angle, so why suggesting it? The OP seems willing to change his build so let's not suggest a bad option (for all the reasons highlightened above).

Access to bloodlines with something that's not a sorcerer may be great but with a 15 point buy character I don't think it's a good idea to invest in charisma on top of the much needed phisical abilities and wisdom. The same could be said for alchemist and int (unless you want to dip one level only to get mutagen but then you have a worse to hit progression anyway which is not good).

In my opinion the best way to get in huge amounts of damage with a frontline character under the limitations presented is to go Bloodrager 01 and then mutation warrior all the way (using a large bastard sword/swarven waraxe). You don't lose BaB, you gain rage and you get to use wands for all the spells from the bloodrager's list... and this allows you to dump cha to boost your other stats which is important considering those extra points need to come from somewhere and you need good phisical stats, good wisdom and hopefully you want your character to do something more than just kill stuff.

As for races I suggested one between half elf, human or dwarf all good for the task although the dwarf is probably the best choice for defensive reasons (+3 against all spells and spell like abilities easyly becoming a +5 for example, although he has to dump int a little).

Silver Crusade

Here's a Level 2 sample if that will help (Very generic)
With some jiggery-pokery about the traits/archetypes/race/feats you can greatly enhance and tweak this. I just thought you might like an idea.

I would usually suggest mixing classes up to Alchemist 4 for the second discovery and then sticking to Barbarian after that. Half-Orc has some good advantages with Sacred Tattoos and Shaman's apprentice. The +1 saves and Endurance feat are quite good and can be used to build feat chains later if you want. To be honest, though, Pathfinder usually arranges it so most races can play most classes competently, so if something doesn't really grab you, look around for something else that might.

Barbarian 1/Alchemist 1:

Stats-----Base--Pts--Race--Total = 15pts
Str_____10____5____2_____16
Dex_____10____5____0_____14
Con_____10____5____0_____14
Int_____10____3____0_____13
Wis_____10___-4____0______7
Cha_____10____1____0_____11

Drunken Brute/Alchemist
Level 2
Speed 30 (20 with medium armor)
12 Skill pts and large access to skill pool
HP: ~20
Rage 6rds* & Mutagen 10min
[ur=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/drunken-brutel*Raging Drunk[/url]
2 Extracts
2 Bombs (1d6+1)

BAB +1 (+4 Str) (+3 Power Attacking)
Fort: +4 (+6 Con)
Ref: +2 (+4 Dex)
Will: +0 (-2 Wis)
Weapons: Simple/Martial + Bomb
Armors: Simple/Martial/Shields(Not Tower)
CMB: +4
CMD: 16

Feats:
Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush

Equipment:
Breastplate
Great Axe

Raging + Enlarge + Mutagen
HP ~24
Str: 26 (+4R/+4M/+2L)
Dex: 12 (-2 Large)
Con: 18 (+4 Rage)
Int: 10 (-2 Mutagen)

Attack: +8 (Power Attack)
Dmg: 3d6+15 (Power Attack and Large)
Reach 10 (Extract:Long Arm? 15)
AC: 15 (Large and Rage)(Extract:Shield? 19)
Fort: +8
Ref: +3
Will: +0 (Rage)
CMB: +9
CMD: 21


Pros/Cons:

    Pros
  • Drink to maintain Rage instead of using round limit
  • Very High damage output, but adjustable to scale for threat level
  • Only one poor save
  • Versatile out of combat and in combat skill choices
  • Can Buff and fight at the same time
  • Can hold extracts in reserve until needed, or occasionally brew later
  • Bonuses stack with Enhancement bonuses (Bull's Strength, Belts, etc)
  • Extracts do not use Arcane Failure
  • Versatile selection of Extracts to accommodate broad range of situations
  • Great potential reach to seriously shutdown battlefield movement
  • Bullrush sends foes flying, even into each other, with hilarious results.
  • Access to Discoveries and Rage powers
  • Highly resistant to opponent maneuvers
  • HP advancement still above average fighter over career

    Cons
  • Limited number and progression of extracts.
  • Points spent into Intelligence could have been put elsewhere
  • Slower movement than other Barbarian types
  • Terrible will save without equipment and buffs
  • Susceptible (because of will save) to occasional mind control or crowd control effects.
  • May wipe party as GM giggles (see above)
  • BAB slightly worse than full martial class
  • Will never have the best AC and must plan to take a few hits

By the time you get around to incorporating the Eldritch Heritage feats they become cherries on the whoopass cream pie. Very tasty, blood-covered cherries, smothered in the rich, chocolaty, pain and violent death of your foes.

Dark Archive

Rogar Valertis wrote:


-Community Minded says:Any morale bonuses you confer upon your allies through your own abilities or spells last 2 additional rounds. Rage is not something you give to your allies so it doesn't work. It's excellent for bards though.

You always count as your own ally.

Relevant FAQ.

This is why Community Minded is amazing for Orc Bloodline and as a Bloodrager you double dip with Rage for even more insane awesomeness.


Ade Eda wrote:
Guru-Meditation wrote:

Later go into Dragon Disciple. Gives even more Strengh. You need spontaneous arcane casting for this.

Options are Sorcerer, Bard or Skald (a Bard / Barbarian hybrid class). You need only a 1 level dip to unlock Dragon Disciple.

Sorcerer doesnt allow for casting in armor, but has some nice low-level spells.

Bard allows casting in light armor, Skald in medium Armor. they have the same spell list.

4 Barbarian, 1 Sorcerer, then into Dragon Disciple is a classic.

So if I fully understand. You go DD because 2 and 4 level str ability boost.

Bard because of DD and better buffing spells as Heroism, Inspire courage, haste... And why 4 level of barbarian instead of 1???

You need 5 levels in other classes before you unlock Dragon Disciple.

Either 4 Barb / 1 Sorcer = for keeping most melee power

OR 1 Barbarian, 4 Bard for best buffing power.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Thank you to all and your supreme posts. I have enought information to start building my melee charakter.

Special thanks go to:
@Rogar Valertis,
@Deadmanwalking,
@Suthainn
@ErrantPursuit,
@Mr. Dodo
@Guru-Meditation.

Liberty's Edge

You're very welcome, I'm always happy to be of assistance. :)


Ade Eda wrote:

INTRODUCTION:

I am new at pathfinder. I always play RP as a front-man fighter. The fearless and furious mountain of muscles. The man able to behead a horse at a single blow. Kill someone more by brutal force than refined technique. As you can see in this video. He kill horse by brutal force. This is my main idea of the build. Muscular warrior with one big weapon.

Summoner synthesis could be Gargantuan when enlarged. He/she can boost str using evolution points.

Ability Increase (Ex):
Source: PRG:APG

An eidolon grows larger muscles, gains faster reflexes, achieves greater intelligence, or acquires another increase to one of its abilities. Increase one of the eidolon’s ability scores by +2. This evolution can be selected more than once. It can only be applied once to an individual ability score, plus 1 additional time for every 6 levels the summoner possesses.

Plus he gain Str/Dex Bonus almost every 3 levels...

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