Adopted + Nine-Tailed Scion


Rules Questions

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Dark Archive

Which, if you had none before, could be considered an be extra apple would it not?

But this could easily be considered a non-issue. Paizo has said that it's perfectly valid for someone with racial heritage: kitsune to have fox ears and a fox tail. They'd be mainly cosmetic. You wouldn't get a Perception bonus due to the ears. You couldn't grapple with the tail (it's not prehensile after all). And there's no extra attacks or attack options. The most you could do with the tail is wag it, and raise/lower it. But you do have fox ears instead of human ears, and you do have a fox tail.

What racial heritage does not give you and can not give you, is the kitsune racial traits, which Magical Tails heavily imply you need to benefit from the feat. The problem is the feat doesn't outright state that it's modifying the Kitsune Magic racial trait even if that's implied. Instead it's a little vague. Then again the asumption the writer of ARG had probably was that you'd only be taking the feat if you're a kitsune.

It's possible the writer forgot about the feat racial heritage. Or maybe didn't think anyone would want Magical Tails if they weren't a kitsune. Either way, it's unclear if the feat merely thematically enhances kitsune magic, or is suppose to specifically enhance kitsune magic. Overall, this isn't an issue. For the most part Magical Tail isn't that good of a feat. If you have enough charisma that the DC for the SLA with saves to be effective, you probably are a caster class which makes them redundant. If not, then the save DC is never going to be that high, so they aren't very useful.

Not to mention you just gave up 9 feats and possibly a trait to get them. There's a lot of better options then magical tail and nine-tailed scion. Even for an actual kitsune there's a lot of better options. To be honest, while I like the idea behind Magical Tail, I'll probably never take the feat.

EDIT TO ADD: And for what the thread is about (originally) yes the Adopted trait would let you take nine-tailed scion, but you couldn't benefit from the trait unless you also took Racial Heritage as a feat. In which case, you don't need the Adopted trait. Adopted ONLY lets you take a single race specific trait that you normally wouldn't qualify for. For example, being adopted by an aasimar would allow you to take the Adrift trait.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The tail is given to represent the growing powers of the Kitsune. If the powers are not gained, why would one get a tail for it?

That being put aside, there is a growing list of things that Racial Heritage allows a character to take that would not provide any benefit because the Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc does not have the basic (thing) that the feat/trait would augment. The Tail Terror is the easiest to point to as an example. A couple of traits for the Gnome that can be taken with this or Adopted changes or adds to their spell like abilities, which a Human character would not have. The same thing is relevant here, with the Tails feat or the Fox Shape, the Human just does not have the base powers or talents that the Kitsune do, so the feats, when taken, do not give any benefit until such time that they do gain some sort of way to emulate that particular. (Spell Like cantrips or Change Shape racial trait)

In PFS, the "expect table variation" should raise a red flag to those that want to finagle a particular, such as double wielding two Earth Breakers or gaining a booty slam. In a home game, the players will need to talk with the GM and the group about particulars like this, and be willing to let it go if they have a different point of view about the rules interaction. This is one of those situations that need the GM fiat to be ruled on, as this thread and others tend to go for many, many posts going over the same point again and again, before is it lOcKeD.

To me, to make my own point clear, the feats in question just won't work with those that don't have the base abilities that the feats change, add to, or grow.


I'm sure this will just start another argument but I feel I must point out that humans do in fact have tails, they are just so small they are internal. That's what your tail bone is, a vestigial tail.

Thus, the argument that you can't grow an extra one if you don't have one is moot.

Also, I'm going to state it again, the idea that you require the kitsune magic trait is flat out wrong, the ONLY requirement is kitsune, which you count as with Racial Heritage.

You want to argue that it should? Fine, but as is, it doesn't. It's not vague, it may have been an oversight for all we know, but it's not a requirement.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Kahel Stormbender wrote:

Which, if you had none before, could be considered an be extra apple would it not?

Instead it's a little vague. Then again the asumption the writer of ARG had probably was that you'd only be taking the feat if you're a kitsune.

Your definition of Extra deviates from the English definition.

Vague = "Ask your GM"
So there isn't any point in asserting "it works this way" or "that way". You should "Ask your GM" how it works.


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Sah wrote:

I'm sure this will just start another argument but I feel I must point out that humans do in fact have tails, they are just so small they are internal. That's what your tail bone is, a vestigial tail.

Thus, the argument that you can't grow an extra one if you don't have one is moot.

Within the context of the game, I believe humans don't count as having tails (even if they do in a strict anatomical sense).

But if you insist, wish granted:

You now have extra human tail bones. I suppose this would result in a very large and unsightly growth on your lower back.

Dark Archive

thaX wrote:


To me, to make my own point clear, the feats in question just won't work with those that don't have the base abilities that the feats change, add to, or grow.

I agree with you on magical tails and it probably not giving a tail to a human fighter, rogue, or other class that doesn't use magic or only uses divine magic with racial heritage: kitsune. I'd possibly allow them to grow a tail, but that would be the extent of how I'd let them benefit from them. But my gut feeling is that they shouldn't grow a tail either.

Fox Shape, as I mentioned in the past I'd probably allow racial heritage to let you benefit from. All told, it's kind of a minor thing. Yeah a few corner case builds have been made which massively abuse Tiny size. But most people don't play such builds.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

As a GM at a home game, I would say the Shapeshifter Ranger Archtype would qualify for Fox Shape, giving the access to the form for as long as the character can use the powers of the Archtype.

That or something about the same sort of thing would work for various weird combinations that Racial Heritage gives.


Byakko wrote:
Sah wrote:

I'm sure this will just start another argument but I feel I must point out that humans do in fact have tails, they are just so small they are internal. That's what your tail bone is, a vestigial tail.

Thus, the argument that you can't grow an extra one if you don't have one is moot.

Within the context of the game, I believe humans don't count as having tails (even if they do in a strict anatomical sense).

But if you insist, wish granted:

You now have extra human tail bones. I suppose this would result in a very large and unsightly growth on your lower back.

Cool, flavor it as you like. They still get the magic though, as again the only prerequisite is kitsune, which someone with Racial Heritage: kitsune counts as for feats.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

As you keep going back to this, I have to say that ignoring the fact that the feat was only meant to be taken by the race itself just to look on the qualifier on the feat tab and not in the description (Fluff and rules) to see what else the feat builds on seems like saying "Well, the metamagic feat doesn't say I need to be able to cast magic to use it, so I should automatically get spells to use it with."

We both know that it doesn't work like that.


Sah wrote:
Byakko wrote:
Sah wrote:

I'm sure this will just start another argument but I feel I must point out that humans do in fact have tails, they are just so small they are internal. That's what your tail bone is, a vestigial tail.

Thus, the argument that you can't grow an extra one if you don't have one is moot.

Within the context of the game, I believe humans don't count as having tails (even if they do in a strict anatomical sense).

But if you insist, wish granted:

You now have extra human tail bones. I suppose this would result in a very large and unsightly growth on your lower back.

Cool, flavor it as you like. They still get the magic though, as again the only prerequisite is kitsune, which someone with Racial Heritage: kitsune counts as for feats.

That is what I've been saying from the start. They get the magic but not the fox tails.


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thaX wrote:

As you keep going back to this, I have to say that ignoring the fact that the feat was only meant to be taken by the race itself just to look on the qualifier on the feat tab and not in the description (Fluff and rules) to see what else the feat builds on seems like saying "Well, the metamagic feat doesn't say I need to be able to cast magic to use it, so I should automatically get spells to use it with."

We both know that it doesn't work like that.

That's a fallacy. Nothing in a metamagic feat would lead to that conclusion. If Kitsune Magic was required for the feat, why wouldn't they have placed that requirement in it the same way that Heavenly Radiance has Daylight a prereq(I know Racial Heritage doesn't apply to Aasimar)? Because Magical Tail doesn't require it in order to function. Even if a Kitsune replaced Kitsune Magic, they could still benefit from Magical Tail.

There are several instances of feats from Advanced Race guide that require their race's spell-like ability racial in order to function. The fact that they omitted it from Magical Tail and from any errata they have put out for Advanced Race Guide.

Liberty's Edge

If you think this is a good idea as a human you may want to think for a minute on where that tail extension goes


RAW vs RAI.

Like so many baffling arguments I see (a net beats Freedom vs Movement because of rules-lawyering?) this is another clear unintended RAW/RAI interaction.

RAW, you can very clearly and explicitly take these feats.

But... does that make any sense?

*Why* would you ever do that?

You want to spend your human feat to be treated as kitsune in order to spend 8 more feats on being a less-good kitsune?

Maybe just... play a kitsune?

In any case, as others have said, table variance and all. I would rule you'd get the SLAs but not the tails.

Edit: I somehow missed in all this that the OP was asking for a tiefling.

Yes, you'd need the Pass for Human alternate racial trait, the Racial Heritage (Kitsune) feat, then you can go to town.

You could also (DM permission) play a kitsune-descended tiefling (per the non-human tiefling sidebar) with a variant common-sense houseruled "Pass for Kitsune" alternate racial trait, which would cause you to be treated as a humanoid (kitsune) for all purposes, and then Racial Heritage (Kitsune) wouldn't be needed.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Gulthor wrote:
You could also (DM permission) play a kitsune-descended tiefling (per the non-human tiefling sidebar) with a variant common-sense houseruled "Pass for Kitsune" alternate racial trait, which would cause you to be treated as a humanoid (kitsune) for all purposes, and then Racial Heritage (Kitsune) wouldn't be needed.

+1

Much better path to take!

How your GM reads the RAW is how the RAW is in that game and as much as someone wants to say some other way is the one true RAW, won't make it so in that game.


James Risner wrote:
Gulthor wrote:
You could also (DM permission) play a kitsune-descended tiefling (per the non-human tiefling sidebar) with a variant common-sense houseruled "Pass for Kitsune" alternate racial trait, which would cause you to be treated as a humanoid (kitsune) for all purposes, and then Racial Heritage (Kitsune) wouldn't be needed.

+1

Much better path to take!

How your GM reads the RAW is how the RAW is in that game and as much as someone wants to say some other way is the one true RAW, won't make it so in that game.

Thanks!

And you could even take a tiefling tail as your kitsune tail if you wanted your "primary" tail to be prehensile.

Thematically it works on many levels - a "fiendish" kitsune is not at all inappropriate. You could easily pick up Fox Shape later on if you were missing that classic kitsune element.

Seems to be the best fit - if your DM allows it (I would without a second thought.)

Dark Archive

Though I would need to ask the DM, unless I am the DM then I can allow it as I please, I would consider it like this:
Race: Aasimar
Subrace: Azata-Blooded
Alternate Racial Trait: Scion of Humanity
Alternative Physical Features: Fox Tail
Feat: Racial Heritage (kitsune)

History wise I would explain it that the character had celestial ancestory and more recently a kitsune grandmother. They would have some fox-like features, such as ears and a tail with even the face being more exotic, along with innate magical ability... thus from what has been argued would in all intents I feel qualify for getting the Magical Tail feat and benefiting from them.

As the class pick I may go with oracle, sorcerer, or bard.

I will also be consider the Bastards of Golarion to see how this may change things.

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