The biggest difference isn't which one can be made better at a given role than the other (for most specialist roles the oracle wins), it's whether you want to play a specialist (so that's what you build towards) or a generalist.
A cleric gets to choose which spells he/she memorises each day, so can change which role they will perform. Yes, they (usually) have to stick to one deity/set of domains, but the oracle is mostly stuck with a limited set of spells and certain revelations.
It's the same with sorcerors and wizards.
As with any spontaneous/prepared 9th level comparison, it depends on if we're comparing odd or even levels. On odd levels the Cleric is a spell level ahead until the Oracle hits 18 - higher level spells tend to be gamechangers.
Oracles do specialise well, but interestingly the Spirit Guide archetype can make them very day-to-day flexible. Oracles also tend to have more interesting class mechanics and seem a lot more fun to play.
It's hard to argue with the raw power of a Cleric though. Good Fortitude and Will saves alone is great. Good Domain choices can be powerful and flexible. Even if Channel Energy is garbage without either significant build investment or Variant Channeling the core of the class is still solid.
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Discussing the Oracle to the Cleric without comparing the connection to the similar connection between sorcerer and wizard is in my opinion a wash.
Quite frankly the oracle took every lesson they learned from the sorcerer then did it right, and then added a few goodies on top just to be sure.
Sorcerer Unchained would be nice.
Definitely agree, though the necessary changes would be fairly minimal I think.
Sorcerer Unchained would be nice.
Mostly a moving the bonus spells known up, perhaps adding an additional spell known of each level, and unlocking the feats in some direction how help.
I also think the sorcerer needs some actual options beyond the single choice of bloodline.
Beyond spells known and feats (which any spontaneous caster gets, and everyone gets) that is literally the only choice a sorcerer makes.
Boring!
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How can a battle Oracle be better than a battle cleric for example.
Oracle has the lowest saves in the game, no main stat for any of the saves, low fort and ref.
Cleric Can wear same armor with 1 feat, use decent weapons and have superior spell list.
The domain vs revelations even out.Show me a medium better level of Oracle vs cleric plsease.
Spontaneous vs memorize even out. Both have up and down sided
Most of the Cleric's options, regardless of build, are focused on making others better at things. Most Domains are a Standard Action to use that lasts 1 round.
Another huge benefit that the Oracle has over the Sorcerer (in the Cleric/Wizard vs Sorcerer/Oracle sense) is that Cleric and Divine spells are very limited and there just are not that many good ones. So while it's true that the Cleric is a better generalist, it's also not. You do not build a Cleric to be a generalist, for one. They jut do not have the Feats needed for that to work. They get 2 Domains and each of them offers a whopping 2 powers and maybe 3 spells that are not on their Spell list. But, they can only cast them at most 1/day, regardless.
Oracles have enough built in options that they can actually afford to be a generalist by giving up some (not all) of their specialty, but the real trick is that because there are not really that many good choices of spells to go with, it's not nearly as difficult to do as it is with the Sorcerer vs Wizard.
Another huge benefit to the Oracle is that they are a very SAD class, where the Cleric (to do it's job fully) is the most MAD class in the game. So while the Oracle might have the "worst" saves in the game, they do not have to split between Wis & Cha for class features, and can afford to bump Con and Dex higher than the Cleric, actually evening out those saves a lot.
The Cleric does have three realistic strengths. It's a pretty simple class for new players. If an Oracle picks a poor spell option, while it will not be detrimental, the Cleric does have the option to "retrain" a lot faster. And on those rare occasions where a specific spell is needed, it's just as likely that the Cleric doesn't have it prepped as the Oracle doesn't know it, and neither have the scroll/wand, but the Cleric can get it tomorrow if the patient doesn't die by then.
The Oracle has, in my opinion a much better realistic strength in that on those rare occasions, you are probably going to need that spell more than once. So while it's just as likely that neither of them would have it, (Oracle doesn't know it, Cleric didn't prep it), if the Oracle does know it, they can cast it as much as needed and not just once like the Cleric most likely has it prepped. However, since wands and scrolls are pretty readily available, the restriction on Oracles needed to pick and choose spells is much less a weakness than it seems, and much less than it is for the Sorcerer vs Wizard. There just are not that many "must have" divine spells.
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Leaving spell slots open seems to be the best-kept secret in the game! With 15 mins of prep time you can prepare 1/4 of your spells on-the-go.
Wizards with Fast Study can cut this to 1 minute!
How can a battle Oracle be better than a battle cleric for example.
How about free stoneskin, better initiative, three free feats for one weapon that you get early and allows you to critfish, an immediate action move up to your speed up to three times per day, and rerolls for saving throws against many conditions. And that's just the battle mystery.
The domain vs revelations even out.
Noooo. They really don't. Revelations offer far more than domains. Like HyperMissingno pointed out, a Battle Oracle can pick up five feats by just spending two revelations.
Or for other revelations, the Lunar Oracle can pick up wildshape, get a full-level animal companion and use Charisma in place of Dexterity on Reflex saves and AC. Metal Oracles can get a version of Armor Training, a speed boost, Fort save bonuses, and free feats and stoneskin just like the battle oracle.
The domain vs revelations even out.Noooo. They really don't. Revelations offer far more than domains. Like HyperMissingno pointed out, a Battle Oracle can pick up five feats by just spending two revelations.
Or for other revelations, the Lunar Oracle can pick up wildshape, get a full-level animal companion and use Charisma in place of Dexterity on Reflex saves and AC. Metal Oracles can get a version of Armor Training, a speed boost, Fort save bonuses, and free feats and stoneskin just like the battle oracle.
Lunar Oracles can also get 3 natural attacks at level one if they are a race with claws, 4 if they takes a curse that gives them a bite. This is at first level mind you.
Oracles also get more mileage out of their mystery spells than clerics get out of their domain spells. Clerics only get to prepare the domain spell once unless they sacrifice higher level domain slots while oracles can spam their mystery spells to high heaven.
How can a battle Oracle be better than a battle cleric for example.
In the Battle Mystery, you get Enlarge Person (not on the Cleric/Oracle list, and only accessible to Clerics with the Strength Domain or the Growth Domain) at 2nd level. You get Revelations like Combat Healer, Iron Skin (better if you take Abundant Revelation with it), Maneuver Mastery, Surprising Charge, War Sight, and Weapon Mastery; some of the other Revelations are good in specific cases. Cleric doesn't get any equivalent of most of these.
Oracle has the lowest saves in the game, no main stat for any of the saves, low fort and ref.
I'll give you that.
Cleric Can wear same armor with 1 feat, use decent weapons and have superior spell list.
The Cleric spell list isn't superior (Cleric only gets a couple of non-Domain/Mystery spells that Oracle doesn't get, and the reverse is also true) -- Mystery Bonus spells even this out most of the way, and the fact that they aren't confined to a Domain Spell Slot means you can use them more than once per day.
The domain vs revelations even out.
No -- Oracles (if not using an archetype) eventually get 6 Revelations (7 if you include the Final Revelation) without using a feat, whereas Clerics (if not using an archetype) get 4 Domain powers (5 if they take 1 of the rare Domains like Travel that has a Domain Arcana), and can't even use a feat to get more (which means that a mid-level Oracle could catch up to the Cleric's burst of Domain Powers at 1st and 8th level, but then keeps plugging ahead). Cleric also doesn't have any equivalent to Final Revelation (not that capstones normally matter much . . .).
Show me a medium better level of Oracle vs cleric plsease.
I assume that you mean a better medium level Oracle build. See Channeling the Cosmos: A Guide to the Oracle, but in brief (caution: not fully optimized):
Generic Humanoid Oracle
15 point buy: Str 14; Dex 14; Con 10; Int 10; Wis 10; Cha 14
Put racial bonus(es) and/or extra points from actually getting 20 point buy on Strength or Dexterity if you want more combat focus or on Charisma if you want more spellcasting focus, and shift points to un-dump any racial penalty; if you get 20 point buy, alternatively use some of the points to boost scores currently set to 10 to get more Fortitude/Hit Points, skills, or Will. Put ability score increases into Charisma to keep up with increasing spell level. Favored Class Bonus = +1 hit point per level.
1: Character Feat Combat Reflexes (needed for multiple AoOs); Revelation Weapon Mastery (whatever weapon you want to use most); feat granted by Weapon Mastery Revelation = Weapon Focus, and you'll get more later
3. Character Feat Bodyguard (lets you protect your allies; Revelation War Sight (lets you act in the Surprise Round)
5. Character Feat Extra Revelation (Surprising Charge) (lets you move up to your speed as an Immediate Action)
7. Character Feat Combat Casting (lets you cast better in combat); Revelation Maneuver Mastery (Trip) (gets you prerequisite-free Improved Trip, except that you treat your Oracle level as your BAB for determining CMB, and you'll get more later)
8. No new Character Feats or Revelations, but Weapon Mastery part 2 kicks in and gives you prerequisite-free Improved Critical
9. Character Feat Persistent Spell (makes targets have to save twice against your spells)
11. Character Feat Abundant Revelations (Iron Skin) (lets you use it an additional time per day); Revelation Iron Skin (gives you Stoneskin without needing the material component, normally once per day, but Abundant Revelations makes it twice times per day, and you eventually get it another time per day at 15th level); also, Maneuver Mastery part 2 kicks in, giving you prerequisite-free Greater Trip
12. No new Character Feats or Revelations, but Weapon Mastery part 3 kicks in and gives you prerequisite-free Greater Weapon Focus
If you want a better weapon, snag it off a racial trait or alternate racial trait, or if you want a better weapon and better armor, go Human and use your Human Bonus Feat for Extra Revelationn (Skill at Arms). If you want a better weapon and want to go Dexterity-based, dip 1 level of Swashbuckler or Unchained Rogue at the start to get Weapon Finesse, although this means that you will have to bump feats back to get whichever Dexterity-to-Damage feat is appropriate for your chosen weapon with your 3rd level character feat or your Human Bonus Feat (which means not using it for Extra Revelation, so you will have to use a weapon that you can get as an Unchained Rogue or Swashbuckler). The feat rearrangement required by going Dexterity-based bumps a couple of things out of PFS range, but on the other hand, it also makes you less MAD by letting you relax Strength back down to average levels, so that you can move the points into Dexterity and Charisma (and possibly shore up some weaknesses). I would have posted a link to one of the characters I made (not in a PbP yet), but that is **2** walls of text (Messageboards character sheet wouldn't let me do it in just 1), so I figured the above would be a better illustration.
A Cleric just CAN'T fit all that into 12 levels; a Crusader Cleric could partially catch up, but at the cost of having only 1 Domain and 1 fewer spell per day at each spell level (thus being even farther behind the Oracle in spells per day). A Cleric does get Channeling, but has to invest feats and ability score points to make it good.
Spontaneous vs memorize even out. Both have up and down sided
This probably comes out a wash overall, although the above-mentioned greater class features for the Oracle (mainly Revelations, but also a noticeable amount from Oracle's Curse) tend to tip the balance in favor of the Oracle. To really use the prepared spellcasting to tip the balance in favor of the Cleric, you would need to invest in Magic Item Creation feats (notably Scribe Scroll and Craft Wand, which at 2 feats is already 1 more than an Oracle investing 1 feat for Extra Revelation to get up to speed at low and mid levels).
It's not as effective as a lot of people seem to think it is. Depends on the spell and the case. You can't wait 15 minutes for a Delay Poison or Breath of Life, or Daylight.
Yes and no.
It does depend on the spell and the case.
But given you have access to every spell on the cleric list that isn't stuck in domains or of an opposing alignment it's an incredibly potent tool.
The trick of course is always decent knowledge of what you're getting into. The aforementioned spells aren't helpful if you have to do it in the next five minutes but grabbing them just before you enter the dungeon is a world of difference.
A Cleric just CAN'T fit all that into 12 levels;
I don't have to.
Generally speaking at 15 point buy I wouldn't even try to build a battle divine caster. That's just me though.
What a cleric possesses is quite a few potent abilities that can combo with one another quite well and depending on the nature of the game any weapon they want for free. If you want to get a gm annoyed grow as a swift action, poke with your conductive long spear and get a no-save chaos touch added to it from 20+ feat away.
that's one way to build a battle cleric. And that's only with two very, very potent level 1 abilities.
Let's also not forget the biggest advantage. Clerics get their spells a level earlier. That's not a small advantage as we're finding in our iron gods game where in a group of casters the witch is dropping level 3 spells whilst us peasants have to wait another level or two.
Overall though? I think they ultimately break even with some ups and downs here and there. Life oracles are solid at what they do and I've seen some metal oracles do some rather neat things with their abilities. But please don't look at the relatively empty cleric stat block and assume weakness. I have to reteach this lesson every time I run evil priests against pc's.
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The trick of course is always decent knowledge of what you're getting into. The aforementioned spells aren't helpful if you have to do it in the next five minutes but grabbing them just before you enter the dungeon is a world of difference.
True, but at the same time, both a Cleric and an Oracle could and should have a scroll/Wand/Potion of these sorts of things, because as I pointed out, there just are not that many great or must have divine spells to pick from. It's not too common that a Cleric (or Oracle really) needs to worry about picking between 2 or 3 different spells.
There is also the rest of the party that can contribute to their own survival. :P
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I've played both over the years and this is what I think:
SAD vs MAD
Unquestionably the Oracle has the advantage here but its not as big as you think. A cleric only has to be MAD if you want it to be - you dont have to invest loads (or any at all!) in channeling/CHA and if you not built around wading into combat then you wont put into STR. An Oracle that needs some combat ability will inevitably end up MAD as well. I actually think combat Cleric/Oracle builds really start to go downhill from 10th level onwards anyway.
Saves
Cleric comes out here on top easily although there are a couple of things that can be done to narrow the gap by the Oracle. Divine Protection got its much needed nerf!
Domains vs Revelations
Revelations defintely better, but then that would be expected when looking at class balance. There are a few great domain abilities out there but not enough and the domain spell lists are generally slightly weaker too.
FCB
Now this is interesting. The Oracle really needs its FCB to gain new spells known.. etc but this also causes problems down the line. The cleric doesnt have good FCB but actually this isnt a problem since extra skill points and/or HP is very useful for any cleric leveling up. You wont catch an Oracle taking extra HP as they level up and this can make a difference from mid levels onwards.
Specialist vs Generalist
The age old PF debate! Essentially this all boils down to what build you are looking for. If you have a niche idea (eg a blaster) then Oracle will obviously be the way to go.
My own personal view is that the prepared list is better than the spontaneous for divine casters. There arent that many spells on the divine list that you would be guaranteed to cast several times a day, and even if there were you could just prepare one or two more. A divine caster should have a relatively broad spread to cover for all situations. Things like Pearls of Power have also helped.
In addition with the cleric you can have a scribe scroll build which you cant with an oracle. With some careful scribing a cleric will NEVER not have the spell he needs.... something that will affect an oracle on a daily basis. Knowing all of your spells (irrespective of the number of splatbooks!!) is a big bonus.
Spontaneous casting is good for the revelation spells though which are often arcane spells not on the divine list. Aside from a couple of niche archetypes (or assistance from items/scrolls) the cleric is very restricted as to how many domain spells can be cast per day.
Delayed spell casting
A biggie for any spontaneous caster..... being a level behind sucks and there is no way to put sugar on it!!
Prestige classing
This is something that rarely gets mentioned IMO. Effectively an Oracle is very restricted in his options. Not only does he have the precious FCB to think about but there is also all the abilities and spells that will all get missed out on via PrC. And on top of that there is again the delayed spell casting - many PrC (eg Evangelist) impose an additional level delay in casting.
Ironically the complete terribleness of the cleric's class abilities actually works out in his favour this time! A cleric loses out very little by PrC, less so than just about any other class, especially if this is started at the right level (eg after 8th when higher domains abilities have been got). I would almost go as far to say PrC is an excellent idea for all cleric builds.... Exalted, Evangelist, Savant, Agent of the Grave.... all solid choices.
Overall, IMO this isnt a lot in it... it all boils down to the build you're looking for.
From my persepctive I prefer cleric because with some careful archetype and/or build choices I can make a reasonably good specialist but still retain my overall generalist abilities.
^Good analysis, but in the case of prestige classing, it partly depends upon what Oracle Revelations you take. Revelations are rather uneven in that some of them scale and some of them don't So if you want all Revelations that don't scale (or scale very slowly), going into a prestige class doesn't hurt so much. Of course, that doesn't solve the problem of no longer getting Mystery Spells (unless you went Evangelist, which scales everything else anyway). Note that some Domain abilities also scale, so you do lose something for prestige classing from Cleric if you picked that type of Domain.
^Good analysis, but in the case of prestige classing, it partly depends upon what Oracle Revelations you take. Revelations are rather uneven in that some of them scale and some of them don't So if you want all Revelations that don't scale (or scale very slowly), going into a prestige class doesn't hurt so much. Of course, that doesn't solve the problem of no longer getting Mystery Spells (unless you went Evangelist, which scales everything else anyway). Note that some Domain abilities also scale, so you do lose something for prestige classing from Cleric if you picked that type of Domain.
True but there are a few 8th level domain abilities that are really not all that and can be skipped and those that are, mostly scale around duration.
Eg) Ash subdomain - Wall of Ash - 1 min/level useable in 1 min intervals.
Realistically at 8th level that equates to 8 x 1 min uses per day... youre not going to need more than that!
Also for Oracles a lot more of the class itself is invested in Revelations, a loss of Revelations or associated abilities hits an Oracle more than it does a Cleric with Domains.
Yes Evangelist is a reasonably solid PrC even for Oracles but again you have to take another level hit to your spellcasting......a big ouch.
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Here's my PFS battle oracle. I had a couple of boons on this guy that gave him extra stuff you don't normally get, so don't try to do the math. PFS is 20 point buy, but he got a bonus from a boon, and I also got a 3rd trait from a boon.
He's probably not the most uber-optimized. I probably could have settled for 14 cha, since I'm just using casting to buff, and that would have given me more points for elsewhere. Also note that two of my traits help compensate for the low wisdom by giving me bonuses on will saves and perception.
My only feats so far at level 5 are Power Attack and Extra Revelation (x2). I list Weapon Focus as a feat, but I got it from the Weapon Mastery revelation, not from taking the feat. I'm planning to take Extra Revelation at least 2 more times. In fact, I can't remember off the top of my head what other feats I was considering, which is why I have them written down somewhere. But being PFS, this guy will retire after level 11, so I don't need to save any good revelations to take at higher levels, and many battle oracle revelations are better than feats.
I just played him yesterday, for the first time in over a year (the down side of having too many characters in PFS), and I remembered how bad his saving throws are. I was saving up for a +2 strength belt, but I now have 3k gold after yesterday's adventure, so I think I'll upgrade his Cloak of Resistance from +1 to +2 first. He's more of a tank than heavy damage dealer, by design, so I need to do stuff like that to help him survive to tank another day.
One thing oracles with the warsighted archetype get is access to move action speed favored enemy of their choice. So at level 1 you can spend a full round to buff yourself by +4 to hit and damage.
I'd prolly combine this with a mystery that has few strong revelations as you will have only the one at 3rd level in PFS.
Blaster ? Orcale black hand wins a fire cleric.Ash domain Theologians are probably the best blasters in the game if only a little feat starved. All important spells get intensified for free with no change to the spell's level or casting time. You can have intensified quickened dazing fireballs, and use elemental metamagic in place of intensified. What's worse is Oracle doesn't get fireball easily.
Theologian gives the intensify for free, I'm following that. I am guessing that you are traiting fireball to get a level dropped when you metamagic so you can add both dazing and quicken since that's 7 levels to a third level spell (normally a No no without rods of metamagic), however there is no way you are trading intensify for elemental since that's not a choice for theologian.
A flame oracle gets fireball just as easy as your ash theologian, so it's not like it's difficult to get. I'll fully agree that the theologian ability to alter a spell permanently is better than the flame oracle's final revelation, but burning magic is also nice and not a metamagic as well.
To add to this general point though without multiclassing neither of these classes are going to outblast the top end or even just optimal arcane blasters.
What's better is that there is wiggle room to dump channeling for Divine Strategist depending on GM ruling (or just ignore channeling because it's all but useless). That boost initiative and fits really well with a deity like Angradd or something.
What wiggle room? Both theologian and divine strategist alter your domain ability -- they can't stack at all.
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{. . .}
What's better is that there is wiggle room to dump channeling for Divine Strategist depending on GM ruling (or just ignore channeling because it's all but useless). That boost initiative and fits really well with a deity like Angradd or something.
Why do so many people say that Channeling is useless? When the party gets damage spread over it, Channeling is more efficient than Cure Wounds. If multiple party members have it, you can even start to do some serious damage to mobs of the lesser Undead. (I have seen both in action in PbPs.) Variant Channeling can get a few nice buff/undebuff/debuff riders (which one depends upon details of deity). It isn't for everyone (I wish Channeling went with certain Domains for which it makes sense rather than occupying core Cleric class feature space), but I wouldn't call it useless.
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Healing more than HP ideally involves a bunch of different spells, which a spontaneous caster will have difficulty with; how many oracles get cure blindness? The cleric wins here.
As a bruiser the cleric often requires too much time to get up to speed. My money's on the oracle.
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If you ask me, the question of whether oracles or clerics are better depends on the person's playstyle. I'm much better with oracles than with clerics and would rather play with a small toolbox I can pull anything out of then rely on leaving slots empty or predicting what I'm gonna face. Some people however are better with what the cleric offers. Some people can do both easily so it's a question of what role are we playing for them.
One thing oracles with the warsighted archetype get is access to move action speed favored enemy of their choice. So at level 1 you can spend a full round to buff yourself by +4 to hit and damage.
How do you do that? I'm playing a Warsighted, so this is relevant to my interests.(Edit: I think I found it: Fate's Favored + Divine Favor + Dedicated Adversary = +4 hit/damage in one turn. Niiiice. :D)
Exactly (the feat was long missing from D20PFSRD so I didn't bother to look for a link).
The combo is pretty incredible early on imo and basically requires 0 investment and makes you hit harder than your friendly neighborhood barbarian.
It's prolly not ideal with the Battle Revelation as that has a number of strong (but not silly broken) Revelations. Other Mysteries are more one sided and it prolly works better there.
I'll add something to what I said before. Herald Caller and summoning is the only instance where a cleric is better in my hands than an oracle, and that's only because it cheats hard with spontaneous casting and sacred summons.
By the way, in case anyone didn't notice, right now a thread about how to make the Cleric more interesting (not more powerful) is in progress.
A couple of Archetypes have been mentioned so far, but not much comparison between them.
The Oracle actually has some really good Archetypes. Spirit Guide, Warsighted, Dual Cursed, Ancient Lorekeeper and a couple of others allow very potent synergy with some Mysteries (or just kick ass). They're yet another reason Oracles are so popular and able to specialise well.
Clerics actually have few Archetypes worth calling out as good. Evangelists are probably the exception, as Inspire Courage alongside Cleric buff spells makes for a top-notch support build. There are a few others with niche uses but most are much worse than the original. If there were an Archetype that fully traded out Channeling for bonus feats, skill points, actual class features or similar then I'd be impressed.
But yes base oracle beats base cleric.
Only for a given specialism.... otherwise definitely no IMO.
A cleric may only ever be able to be a 7/10 specialist in comparison to the 8-9/10 for an oracle but he will ALWAYS be able to default to generalist mode.... something that an oracle can very rarely do.
In addition the extreme lack of PrC options and worse saves hurts the oracle badly.
But as stated by many before it all depends on what your style and campaign is....