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So I have some questions from you vets out there. There is a debate that rages in my group and it is tearing us apart. It is all about taking 20 on a skill check such as perception.
So we are currently running the 'Hell's Rebels' AP and they want to search the room. The perception check is like a 24 to notice something. They 'take 20' to searching the room. So now they automatically find anything in the room.
Is that correct?
If this is correct why put a DC at all on perception check? After combat everyone is obviously going to take 20 to search the room.
Please help with this debate.
Steel Forged Games.
Keep them on a tight clock. If it takes 20 minutes to search the room thoroughly, this gives the baddies time to regroup, plan, and counterattack.
Yes, the OP is correct. They can (usually) take 20 to search and will find everything in the room when they do (unless the DC was so high that they still fail with a 20).
It takes 20x longer than a standard search which takes one Move Action, so Take-20 takes 20 Move Actions (10 rounds = 1 minute).
Orfamay, they could search 20 rooms in those 20 minutes, but your point is valid - if something urgent is going on, the PCs might not be able to spare a whole minute to search. Otherwise, just expect it.
At this point I don't even make my players tell me they're taking-20. I don't make them roll. I know their Perception scores, if anyone says "We search" and the DC is less than their best Perception score + 20, then I just tell them what they find.
It's a bit unfortunate. I cannot, ever, hide something from them as a challenge. Either the DC is low enough that they automatically find it or the DC is high enough that they never do. But that's the rule.
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So I have some questions from you vets out there. There is a debate that rages in my group and it is tearing us apart. It is all about taking 20 on a skill check such as perception.
So we are currently running the 'Hell's Rebels' AP and they want to search the room. The perception check is like a 24 to notice something. They 'take 20' to searching the room. So now they automatically find anything in the room.
Is that correct?
If this is correct why put a DC at all on perception check? After combat everyone is obviously going to take 20 to search the room.
Please help with this debate.
Steel Forged Games.
Taking 20: When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, if you roll a d20 enough times, eventually you will get a 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).
Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties). Common "take 20" skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (when attempting to find traps).
So, yes, you can absolutely use the Take 20 rule to search.
A couple of practical notes on actually doing so:
First, remember that it's not instantaneous. A deliberate Perception check costs a move action, and T20 costs twenty times that. Do they have buff durations ticking down?
Second (and this is important), remember that T20 is not shorthand for "thoroughly search the entire map in every conceivable way". It means standing there and making twenty move-action Perception checks. You are not walking around, you are not doing other things that require their own actions (like opening doors/drawers, squatting down to look under furniture, etc). When a character uses T20 on Perception, they stay in one spot and spend 20 move actions doing a "Sherlock Scan" of what they can perceive from that position. Things that can't be perceived from where they're taking 20 from (such as vision-only stimulus that's not in line of sight) will be automatically failed against. Many GMs fail to apply the T20 rules properly in this regard, which in turn leads to them thinking T20 on Perception is waaaay more powerful than it is, then they either ban it or do a lot of mental gymnastics to convince themselves it can't be done at all. Don't fall into that trap.
In effect, T20 on Perception means pick a spot, spend about a minute there, and detect anything that (1) is detectable from that spot and (2) has a DC that they can hit with their T20 result, remembering to account for distance modifiers and so forth.
It's actually a somewhat reasonable system... if you take the trouble to learn it and apply it properly.
EDIT: Also, this should be in the Rules forum.
Orfamay makes a good point. If you're talking about a decent sized 30'x30' room, you're not going to exhaustively search the room (the equivalent of Taking 20) in under a minute (ten rounds).
Under a minute? No. Exactly a minute? Yes. 20 Move actions = 10 rounds = 1 minute.
The area is irrelevant. As long as they can see the area they're searching, it's one move action to intentionally search for stimulus. You should apply the distance penalty if they're at one side of the room searching the far wall (-1 per 10') but other than than, they don't need more than a minute to get the full benefit of a Take-20.
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It's a bit unfortunate. I cannot, ever, hide something from them as a challenge. Either the DC is low enough that they automatically find it or the DC is high enough that they never do. But that's the rule.
This is part of what I like about 5E's less heavily-codified skills. Instead of defining the exact actions and parameters of a single check and then having to add a subsystem for variants/different circumstances (T10/T20), the skill rules are generalized enough that a check can just represent the entire endeavor. Thus, searching the room can be generalized into a single check (and 5E's math makes this more reasonable than it might be in Pathfinder) and there's no need for T20 rules or their consequences.
Similar benefits exist for things like Stealth, but that's another topic.
Orfamay makes a good point. If you're talking about a decent sized 30'x30' room, you're not going to exhaustively search the room (the equivalent of Taking 20) in under a minute (ten rounds).Under a minute? No. Exactly a minute? Yes. 20 Move actions = 10 rounds = 1 minute.
The area is irrelevant. As long as they can see the area they're searching, it's one move action to intentionally search for stimulus. You should apply the distance penalty if they're at one side of the room searching the far wall (-1 per 10') but other than than, they don't need more than a minute to get the full benefit of a Take-20.
I thought that some sort of size was put on a perception check in Pathfinder Unchained. It wouldn't be unreasonable to use that. I believe it was a 10 ft cube per check? I vaguely remember Mark Seifter commenting on that situation.
So I have some questions from you vets out there. There is a debate that rages in my group and it is tearing us apart. It is all about taking 20 on a skill check such as perception.
So we are currently running the 'Hell's Rebels' AP and they want to search the room. The perception check is like a 24 to notice something. They 'take 20' to searching the room. So now they automatically find anything in the room.
Is that correct?
If this is correct why put a DC at all on perception check? After combat everyone is obviously going to take 20 to search the room.
Sure, they may take 20 on every room. As long as they have the time to spend, but that still doesn't mean they find everything. If their best perception is a +3, they get a 23 and that's not good enough to find anything that has a DC of 24. It may be that their highest modifier can net them better than the best DC in the room - that's fine. Let them be rewarded for investing in perception and in investing the time.
I would also assume that taking 20 actually does incorporate opening things up and manipulating things contrary to Jiggy's interpretation. That's one of the reasons it does take so long - it's more than a cursory overview, it's really digging in to things that can be searched. And in some cases, that means being in the right place as well as spending the time. Imagine someone taking 20 from the doorway - they get a good score, -1 for the desk 10 feet away (due to perception's range penalty) and -2 for the bed in the corner that's 20 feet away. But are they going to find the hidden compartment in the desk drawer or the letter stuffed under the mattress? No, they aren't because those require that the bed and desk actually be manipulated in the search. They need to be in the right place to really succeed at taking 20 on those areas and really expect to get the hidden compartment or letter.
Second (and this is important), remember that T20 is not shorthand for "thoroughly search the entire map in every conceivable way". It means standing there and making twenty move-action Perception checks. You are not walking around, you are not doing other things that require their own actions (like opening doors/drawers, squatting down to look under furniture, etc). When a character uses T20 on Perception, they stay in one spot and spend 20 move actions doing a "Sherlock Scan" of what they can perceive from that position. Things that can't be perceived from where they're taking 20 from (such as vision-only stimulus that's not in line of sight) will be automatically failed against. Many GMs fail to apply the T20 rules properly in this regard, which in turn leads to them thinking T20 on Perception is waaaay more powerful than it is, then they either ban it or do a lot of mental gymnastics to convince themselves it can't be done at all. Don't fall into that trap.
This is a valid point. Standing the middle of a room, perfectly still except for looking around with your eyes, won't find anything that is not in plain sight.
We usually handle that by assuming everybody is using 1 move action to do something (walk over here, open this drawer, turn over this mattress, lift up this rug, etc.) and one move action to make the perception check. This doubles the time to two minutes, but if you have 1 minute to spare then you probably have 2 minutes.
Of course, we could argue that you start at a 1, then a 2 then a 3, and take the full 2 minutes to get up to a 20. Worse, if the hidden thing is under the bed and you look there first instead of last, you could and should miss it. However, getting into detail that gritty really bogs down the game and doesn't add any benefit, so we just assume you're being as careful and thorough in round 1 as you are in round 20.
Side note: If there are traps, this can be dangerous - people walking around, opening things, lifting things, etc., often blunder into traps. My players often learn this the hard way.
Side side note: They're making Perception checks while they're doing all this so it's pretty unfair to dump them into a pit they should have seen with those Perception checks, so make sure to use traps they cannot see, or that have really high DCs to perceive.
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Perception only allows you to perceive something that is perceivable. Taking 20 to look around the room will not allow you to find the hidden cache in the back of the desk. You will have to go over and check the desk, which is an entirely different set of perception checks.
Now, this should not lead to a guessing game of 'did I tell the GM I searched the right portion of the room?' but it should highlight that actually finding everything in the room will take a little more than just a minute if there are things that can't just be spotted from the door. Also remember to account for distance penalties, as someone perceiving a 30x30ft room will be at -2 or -3 for something on the far wall.
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I would also assume that taking 20 actually does incorporate opening things up and manipulating things contrary to Jiggy's interpretation. That's one of the reasons it does take so long - it's more than a cursory overview, it's really digging in to things that can be searched. And in some cases, that means being in the right place as well as spending the time. Imagine someone taking 20 from the doorway - they get a good score, -1 for the desk 10 feet away (due to perception's range penalty) and -2 for the bed in the corner that's 20 feet away. But are they going to find the hidden compartment in the desk drawer or the letter stuffed under the mattress? No, they aren't because those require that the bed and desk actually be manipulated in the search. They need to be in the right place to really succeed at taking 20 on those areas and really expect to get the hidden compartment or letter.
Why would you assume that opening the drawer or lifting the mattress has to be part of T20 on Perception instead of being their own actions like the rules say they are?
Jiggy, can you further backup that your interpretation is the correct and intended-by-the-developers course of action?
Our group had a GM who withheld vital information from the party (a sign) even though we beat the room's Perception DC, all because the sign was on the back of the door we entered from. The lack of that information lead to mass confusion and a TPK later on in the adventure. That GM got reamed him out for it and hasn't done anything of the sort again.
I simply can't believe that adding that level of complexity to a simple search check is the intent of the designers.
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I would also assume that taking 20 actually does incorporate opening things up and manipulating things contrary to Jiggy's interpretation. That's one of the reasons it does take so long - it's more than a cursory overview, it's really digging in to things that can be searched.
No it doesn't; it's just repeating the same simple activity (stand where you are and look around, using a move action to make a perception check) 20 times to make sure you get it right at least once. That's why it takes so long. It most emphatically does not involve any other kind of activity (moving over to the desk, opening a box, etc.), each of which would themselves require additional time, and could well have consequences (falling into the pit just in front of where you are standing, triggering a trap, provoking an AoO from a hidden creature, ...)
Why would you assume that opening the drawer or lifting the mattress has to be part of T20 on Perception instead of being their own actions like the rules say they are?
How else are you going to find the hidden compartment or letter unless you're actually moving things about and searching as part of the search - stare at it with increasing intensity? I make the assumption that taking 20 - performing the absolutely best search that character knows how to perform - enables them to move anything that needs to be moved and find everything their search check enables them to find. If it's good enough to find the letter under the mattress, clearly they moved the mattress or at least reached under it. If not, they didn't think to move the mattress.
If someone explicitly says they're checking under the mattress, I'll give them the letter without a check - but what else is a search check supposed to do other than avoid the players having to explicitly pixel b$*%~ every element in the room?
Creative Director
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The whole point of the concept of taking 20 is that you're essentially doing AS GOOD AS YOU CAN. You're more or less rolling 20 different checks, and the assumption there is that at least once out of 20 rolls you'll on average roll a 20.
The intent of taking 20 is to keep gameplay going and not bog it down between encounters by forcing the players to specifically describe each and every specific action they take when searching an area (or doing whatever it is they're taking 20 on). It speeds game play and lets you get on with the story and the adventure. Spending hours of real time forcing players to describe every step they take in searching a room or disarming a trap or whatever is kind of missing the point of having skills for characters in the first place... because if you do that, it's not the character who's doing the work, it's the player.
The "describe everything you do in detail" is a remnant of the game's earlier editions, where skills were NOT part of the game (except in a very rudimentary way for the then-called thief class). Gaming has evolved since then. If you prefer that "old school" method of making the players work for their prizes that way, consider not using skills at all in your game.
Jiggy, can you further backup that your interpretation is the correct and intended-by-the-developers course of action?
How do you assume that it is not?
If a sign is on the other side of the door, and you're standing in the center of the room looking around, how do you expect the see that sign?
It's a move action to look around. It's a different move action to manipulate the door to make the other side visible. Those are not the same move action.
If all you do is take 1 minute of Perception checks from the center of the room, you should not see the other side of the door. If you mingle some Perception checks with some additional actions to move things, open things, look behind things, and otherwise manipulate the stuff in the room, then yeah, you should see what's behind that door.
But that takes more than the 1 minute center scan.
Apparently in your anecdote, your GM thought you were doing that center scan and you thought you were tossing the room. Seems like there was a lack of communication on both parts. I hate to see a TPK because of a communication issue, but it looks like that's what happened to you.
I suggest clarifying with your GM that you're not scanning a room but rather you're tossing the room which should take longer (and possibly be noisier, too).
No it doesn't; it's just repeating the same simple activity (stand where you are and look around, using a move action to make a perception check) 20 times to make sure you get it right at least once. That's why it takes so long. It most emphatically does not involve any other kind of activity (moving over to the desk, opening a box, etc.), each of which would themselves require additional time, and could well have consequences (falling into the pit just in front of where you are standing, triggering a trap, provoking an AoO from a hidden creature, ...)
You understand that not opening the box, moving to the desk, whatever, means you can't find anything that isn't in your direct line of sight. Kind of hard to tell what's in a box without opening it. And yes, moving into the room could have consequences. You'd still get a perception check for those hazards normally. And if you take 20 before you step in, maybe your perception mod +20 is good enough to spot them.
Of course, as far as triggering a trap on the desk goes, finding that trap is part of searching the desk as well. Assuming it's a bit of an outer layer, so to speak, if the DC was good enough to find it, I'd report that to the players before reporting anything hidden further in. It's also possible their perception+20 is good enough to find the hidden compartment... but not the trap protecting it. In which case, they trigger the trap. Sounds fair to me...
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Jiggy, can you further backup that your interpretation is the correct and intended-by-the-developers one?
Our group had a GM who withheld vital information from the party (a sign) even though we beat the room's Perception DC, all because the sign was on the back of the door we entered from. The lack of that information lead to mass confusion and a TPK later on. We reamed him out for it.
I simply can't believe that adding that level of complexity to a simple search check is the intent of the designers. So in short, please prove it.
Did you guys specify that you were leaving the door open as far as it would go? Because if not, then that has literally nothing to do with getting something wrong in the Skill rules, it's just the GM looking for an excuse to screw you. He'd have found a way to do it regardless of how he was running Perception/T20.
As to your stated question, yes, I can back it up. It's a simple matter of action costs.
You can't spend the same action to do two things that cost that action (unless you have a special exception). You can't spend the same full-round action to both perform a full-attack and pour a potion down an ally's throat. You can't spend the same move action to both stand up from prone and move your speed. Action costs must be paid separately.
Taking 20 on Perception explicitly costs you 20 move actions. Manipulating an object explicitly costs you a move action (each time that you do it).
Do you know of some rule I might have overlooked that gives you a special exception (like getting to deliver a touch spell as a free action in the round you cast it, or getting to draw a weapon as a free action while moving if you have +1 BAB)? Because if not, then the foundational rules of the action economy are pretty explicit that Perception and opening doors are different things that cost their own actions to perform.
If this is correct why put a DC at all on perception check? After combat everyone is obviously going to take 20 to search the room.
Most groups have ongoing buff spells that could last for multiple encounters if you don't stop all the time to search everywhere.
If this is correct why put a DC at all on perception check? After combat everyone is obviously going to take 20 to search the room.Most groups have ongoing buff spells that could last for multiple encounters if you don't stop all the time to search everywhere.
It's true.
This has led to the 15-minute adventuring day that looks like:
1. Cast all our buffs.
2. Run through the dungeon killing everything in sight until
2a. our buffs run out or
2b. our resources are so low that we need to retreat and camp or
2c. we run out of monsters
3. If 2a, maybe we can re-buff and continue, otherwise retreat and camp. If 2b, come back tomorrow and repeat from step 1. If 2c, we spend as long as it takes to search the dungeon now that it's safe, taking-20 on everything we search, including tossing and ransacking to make sure we miss nothing for being out of plain view.
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Why would you assume that opening the drawer or lifting the mattress has to be part of T20 on Perception instead of being their own actions like the rules say they are?How else are you going to find the hidden compartment or letter unless you're actually moving things about and searching as part of the search - stare at it with increasing intensity?
By spending the actions to go over there and open the drawer (or whatever) and then (if necessary) use more Perception checks.
I notice you keep saying things like "as part of the search" and "the point of a search check". I think your frame of mind is tripping you up. Perception (as it's written in Pathfinder) is not a summary of all the activity involved in the process of searching. It is just taking a couple of seconds (or longer for T20) to resolve which observable stimuli you're picking up on. The process of thoroughly searching a room is not all rolled into the Perception skill. (Again, at least as far as Pathfinder rules are concerned; and Pathfinder isn't exactly known for its smooth and robust skill system...)
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I think it's perfectly reasonable for a T20 perception check from the doorway to notice the small box on top of the desk, the corner of a letter sticking out from under the mattress, and (with any luck) the creature hiding behind the screen in the corner of the room. It might even let you spot the trap on the box. What it won't do is let you know what's in the box, or what the letter says.
I'll leave it up to the players to decide whether they want to open the box; that's not a choice I want the GM to make.
Note that the Consolidated Skills Optional Rules has a listing for Search Locations. It SURE sounds like more than sitting in the corner and not moving while you make the check. Intent seems pretty clear when they spell out that "Search Locations" means "thoroughly comb an area" and it takes a "move action spent allows you to search a 10-foot-by-10-foot area." Add to that James Jacobs' comments...
"Search Locations
You can thoroughly comb an area, looking for hidden traps, doors, and the like. The same modifiers that apply to Perception DCs to notice (see above) also apply to Perception DCs to search.
Hidden Object Perception DC
Find an average concealed door 15
Find an average secret door 20
Find a hidden trap Varies by trap
Action: Move. Each move action spent allows you to search a 10-foot-by-10-foot area."
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The intent of taking 20 is to keep gameplay going and not bog it down between encounters by forcing the players to specifically describe each and every specific action they take when searching an area (or doing whatever it is they're taking 20 on). It speeds game play and lets you get on with the story and the adventure. Spending hours of real time forcing players to describe every step they take in searching a room or disarming a trap or whatever is kind of missing the point of having skills for characters in the first place... because if you do that, it's not the character who's doing the work, it's the player.
See, that's how I like skills to be.
"Oh, you want to do [TASK]? Sure, that sounds like it's primarily a matter of [COMPETENCY], so go ahead and roll a [SKILL] check."
Boom. Summarized, resolved, done.
That's how 5E's skill system is written. That's not how Pathfinder's skill system (including T20) is written. But I guess until this thread moves to the Rules Questions forum, it makes a good suggestion for the OP. :)
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Note that the Consolidated Skills Optional Rules has a listing for Search Locations. It SURE sounds like more than sitting in the corner and not moving while you make the check. Intent seems pretty clear when they spell out that "Search Locations" means "thoroughly comb an area" and it takes a "move action spent allows you to search a 10-foot-by-10-foot area." Add to that James Jacobs' comments...
"Search Locations
You can thoroughly comb an area, looking for hidden traps, doors, and the like. The same modifiers that apply to Perception DCs to notice (see above) also apply to Perception DCs to search.
Hidden Object Perception DC
Find an average concealed door 15
Find an average secret door 20
Find a hidden trap Varies by trapAction: Move. Each move action spent allows you to search a 10-foot-by-10-foot area."
Yeah, but that's the Consolidated Skills Optional Rules. The discussion hasn't been about that. So what's your point?
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So here is the exact example of what happened. It is in the 'Wasps Nest' in the first book of the Rebel AP. They have killed/friended all of the monsters. They are searching the main room and out in the water is the statue of Calistra. On the statue under the water there is a hidden hatch with some goodies in it.
The DC is a 24 I believe I have a person with a +4 or better on perception. If the player takes 20 on that room do they find that compartment?
Steel Forged Games
So here is the exact example of what happened. It is in the 'Wasps Nest' in the first book of the Rebel AP. They have killed/friended all of the monsters. They are searching the main room and out in the water is the statue of Calistra. On the statue under the water there is a hidden hatch with some goodies in it.
The DC is a 24 I believe I have a person with a +4 or better on perception. If the player takes 20 on that room do they find that compartment?
Steel Forged Games
Definitely.
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Yeah, but that's the Consolidated Skills Optional Rules. The discussion hasn't been about that. So what's your point?Note that the Consolidated Skills Optional Rules has a listing for Search Locations. It SURE sounds like more than sitting in the corner and not moving while you make the check. Intent seems pretty clear when they spell out that "Search Locations" means "thoroughly comb an area" and it takes a "move action spent allows you to search a 10-foot-by-10-foot area." Add to that James Jacobs' comments...
"Search Locations
You can thoroughly comb an area, looking for hidden traps, doors, and the like. The same modifiers that apply to Perception DCs to notice (see above) also apply to Perception DCs to search.
Hidden Object Perception DC
Find an average concealed door 15
Find an average secret door 20
Find a hidden trap Varies by trapAction: Move. Each move action spent allows you to search a 10-foot-by-10-foot area."
The skills combines are sense motive and perception. Since sense motive has nothing to do with the action, I don't see why it's not an indication of how the perception skill in meant to work in this situation. You are saying "The process of thoroughly searching a room is not all rolled into the Perception skill" and the Consolidated Skill pretty much disagrees, unless you are saying that Sense Motive is the skill that would let you search a room.
So here is the exact example of what happened. It is in the 'Wasps Nest' in the first book of the Rebel AP. They have killed/friended all of the monsters. They are searching the main room and out in the water is the statue of Calistra. On the statue under the water there is a hidden hatch with some goodies in it.
The DC is a 24 I believe I have a person with a +4 or better on perception. If the player takes 20 on that room do they find that compartment?
Depends on what you mean by "takes 20 on that room".
If I were GMing that room, I would consider two things.
1. They might not want to go into the water, so I would literally ask them "Does your search include someone going out into the water and searching there?" It's funny because they always assume something bad will happen when I ask questions like that, but usually nothing bad happens.
However, consider the opposite case: They say "We search the room" but there is a hidden pit in the water and I say "The paladin falls into a pit out in the water." Later, after he drowns in his armor, they whine and complain that nobody wanted to search the water.
So, I would ask first. Watch them squirm and wonder if I'm luring them into danger (I'm not - I ask exactly the same question if there's a pit, if there's hidden treasure, and if there's nothing).
2. From shore, there may be distance modifiers and depending on the clarity of the water, that hidden cache might have total concealment, meaning it would be impossible to see with a Perception check - it would require getting right up there and sticking your face in the water and/or feeling around for it (see point #1). If they're not doing that last bit, they won't find it, even on a Take-20.
So here is the exact example of what happened. It is in the 'Wasps Nest' in the first book of the Rebel AP. They have killed/friended all of the monsters. They are searching the main room and out in the water is the statue of Calistra. On the statue under the water there is a hidden hatch with some goodies in it.
The DC is a 24 I believe I have a person with a +4 or better on perception. If the player takes 20 on that room do they find that compartment?
Depends on what you mean by "takes 20 on that room".
** spoiler omitted **
Oh, I thought the statue in question was just in a small fountain easily accessible from the main room. I retract my previous definitely, I'm unfamiliar with the AP.
Under a minute? No. Exactly a minute? Yes. 20 Move actions = 10 rounds = 1 minute.
Well, the rules on taking 20 still suggest 2 minutes:
Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).
[emphasis mine]
That's probably simpler (and better) than assuming that the PCs will be epitome of efficiency in their exhaustive searches. Ultimately, it's not like the 2 minute suggestion comes just from 3e, it's right there in PF as well.
"Intentionally searching for stimulus" is pretty vague. It could be listening, it could be looking around, or it could be opening a drawer and checking for a false bottom. It could also be interpreted as all of those as once, meaning a single move action could reveal all of those things.
In my opinion, passive perception (i.e. you roll without an action) is pretty good, but active perception, being simply that one line, is underdeveloped to give a GM a good guidelines, and I think it appropriate to modify the time required by the amount of stimulus they have to go through. A bare room should be quicker to search than a crowded storeroom, even if they are the same size. A large room should take longer than a small one. Exactly how these should be balanced is more an art than a science, but the general principle makes sense to me.
Intentionally searching for stimulus as written makes more sense to me as trying to figure out something relatively specific in combat, rather than a 'search' outside of combat.
All that said, if time isn't an issue at all, take 20 certainly will, and should, work.
@OP:
This seems like something you should decide for yourself. Instead of worrying about what the rules say, figure out how granular you want to get with searches in general. If you want to tax your players' brains and/or want to run a more immersive campaign, houserule that taking 20 on Perception checks gives players a general overview of the room, but doesn't give them everything in the room. They still have to act out the search manually if they want to find everything.
If the idea of your players spending a long time in one room bores you, on the other hand, you should rule that taking 20 (assuming the room is free of hazards and there is no time pressure and so on) allows them to find everything in a given room.
A good middle-ground option would be to say that they search the room long and hard enough to highlight all "points of interest," and then leave it up to the players to examIne those points and figure out what the deal with each of them is. I think that could be the best way to do it if they're in an environment with a lot of traps and puzzles and stuff, but I'm not one of your players, so.
Remember the Most Important Rule:
The rules in this book are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.
So sit down with your players outside of the game (in-game rules arguments are death, minus the "sweet release" part), hash out what precisely taking twenty on Perception does in said game until both sides are satisfied, and move on.
Or just do what James Jacobs said, since he's James Jacobs and I'm not. ;)
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Does that DC include any distance penalties from standing at the edge of the water?The DC is a 24 I believe I have a person with a +4 or better on perception. If the player takes 20 on that room do they find that compartment?
Steel Forged Games
The DC is actually 25, and even then only when you are specifically searching the statue. So just trying to spot it from 25' away is going to be somewhat harder.
Remember that you do get to take 5' steps while searching the room (10 in a minute) so you could enter every square of a 15x15 room. But all that does is reduce the distance penalties a bit. And a bigger room would take longer. Arguably, a 4-man party could delegate the opening and the mattress-turning and the perception checks so that the best perceiver didn't have to do any of the manual labour (and hence gets 20 perc checks) but that takes a somewhat unrealistic level of coordination. And they'd get in each others' way. Plus the druid has a 10x10 tiger animal companion that's lain down on the rug to eat the remains of the hobgoblin shaman so they can't open the desk drawer anyway.
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Creative Director
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As the GM, you have the ability to help the adventure's plot move forward or stall out. In most cases (in all cases, in fact), it's better for an adventure to move forward, so that your players and you have fun with the progression of a story and don't get frustrated in the tabletop-equivalent of getting stuck in a video game simply because you aren't clicking on the one pixel that triggers the cut-scene that allows you to advance in the game's story.
AKA: It's better to err on the side of whatever makes things more fun, and that almost always means being generous about what you allow a take 20 check to accomplish.
With Take 20 you need 2 Minutes for each 5ft-square, instead of 6 seconds.
A whole, bigger room might take a minute when all just roll , or it might take half a hour if only the best Percepter Takes 20 in each grid.
This gives the monsters plenty of time to gather up, set traps, or simply flee with the princess.
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Orfamay makes a good point. If you're talking about a decent sized 30'x30' room, you're not going to exhaustively search the room (the equivalent of Taking 20) in under a minute (ten rounds).Under a minute? No. Exactly a minute? Yes. 20 Move actions = 10 rounds = 1 minute.
The area is irrelevant. As long as they can see the area they're searching, it's one move action to intentionally search for stimulus. You should apply the distance penalty if they're at one side of the room searching the far wall (-1 per 10') but other than than, they don't need more than a minute to get the full benefit of a Take-20.
Are you applying the distance modifier for the DC of the check while they make the Perception check from where they're standing? Moving around the room takes actions. Opening closets, drawers, and chests takes actions. Flipping over the mattress or behind paintings take actions.
It's just silly to think that a party can completely search a 30' square room in under a minute; most people can't find their keys in the bedroom that fast.
Hell, I've spent 3 days in the past tossing my apartment looking for something. Course, I then notice it a week later laying out in plain view someplace I'd checked a dozen times at least. Then again, I'm pretty sure I have fae of some sort that like to bother me and hide things.
I don't even require a perception check to search a room. It's something you can do. The perception check might come up in the search of room. It's on of those things where failure mean you just didn't notice it. I don't allow take 20 on those as the check is in passing. The players don't even know. I have them roll 40 rolls of D20 and give me the results. I use the rolls as I go down the list adding the appropriate skill that I have. So they search and if number come up they get it. If the specifically say they will search X then they can take 20.
For example they might be searching the and discover jewelry box that has secret compartment. The DC to notice it is 25, I secretly check. Perception +9 and a roll of 15. Not enough. But the player knows there is a necklace here, the informant told them as much so they search the jewelry box, taking 20 for 29 to notice the secret compartment where the necklace is.
Works good, doesn't slow the game down. I also make sure never have skill check failure halt the game. If perception needs to reveal something I have several methods of revealing besides the perception check. A successful perception check just might the easiest method to get the plot moving.
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I think it's perfectly reasonable for a T20 perception check from the doorway to notice the small box on top of the desk, the corner of a letter sticking out from under the mattress, and (with any luck) the creature hiding behind the screen in the corner of the room. It might even let you spot the trap on the box. What it won't do is let you know what's in the box, or what the letter says.I'll leave it up to the players to decide whether they want to open the box; that's not a choice I want the GM to make.
While perception checks are used to do a search, I'd say the players have to actually state they are searching for hidden something. And state WHAT they are searching for. For example, if they're looking for secret passages that's a different type of search then looking for traps. One that will have you doing different things. Searching for treasure on the other hand, you're not looking for secret doors or their triggers.
Thus if I have a player take 20 to search for hidden treasure, he'd better have stated WHERE he's searching. This too makes a difference. You can thoroughly search that straw bedding if you want, but my notes say there's nothing there but some lice and bedbugs. If you searched the bedding though, that does not mean you found the bag of coins hidden in a secret compartment inside the desk.
If you're tapping the walls and twisting the torches to find a secret passage (which may or may not exist), which wall are you doing this with? If you're searching the eastern wall, but it's the southern wall that has the secret passage, you don't find one.
And if you're not actually looking for traps, chances are you'll find them... with your face. Tapping the walls and twisting torch mountings does nothing to warn you that the rug you're about to step on has a pit underneath it.
I do think it is important for the GMs and players to clarify how the search is taking place.
If a PC is standing in the middle of the room, because he's afraid of traps, he's not likely to see the sign on the other side of the door. If he's tossing the room, however, he becomes exposed to possible traps and hazards, and will likely find the sign behind the door.
As has been said, it is really a matter of communication than rules.