Red Mage Archetype


Homebrew and House Rules

Liberty's Edge

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One of my players is looking for more solid Final Fantasy style Red Mage vibe than the Magus currently provides. I did a quick pass to get an archetype in the right area. What I'm looking for are thoughts, questions, and concerns from those of you more well-versed in the awkward intricacies of Pathfinder.

RED MAGUS:
Red magi have the following class features.

Spell Casting

A red magus casts arcane spells drawn from the magus spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a red magus must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The DC for a saving throw against a red magus's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the red magus's Charisma modifier. A red magus can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is the same as a bard of the same level. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

A red magus's selection of spells is limited. He has the same number of spells known as a bard of the same level, and can choose new spells to replace old ones at 5th level and every 3 class levels after that, just as a bard does. See the bard for more information on swapping spells known.

This ability replaces the magus's spells class feature.

Black and White (Ex)

In addition to the spells gained by red magi as they gain levels, each red magus also adds bleed, stabilize, all of the cure spells, and all of the inflict spells to his list of spells known (cure spells include all spells with “cure” in the name, inflict spells include all spells with “inflict” in the name). These spells are added as soon as the red magus is capable of casting them.

This ability replaces greater spell access.

Chainspell (Su)

At 4th level, the red magus learns to use his arcane pool to cast two spells in quick succession. With a full-round action he can cast two spells by expending a number of points from his arcane pool equal to the highest spell level of the two spells being cast (minimum 1) and expending both spell slots as normal.

This ability replaces spell recall.

Evasion (Ex)

At 7th level, the red magus gains evasion, as the rogue class feature.

This ability replaces medium armor proficiency.

Improved Chainspell (Su)

At 11th level, the red magus’s ability to cast multiple spells using his arcane pool becomes more efficient. Whenever he casts two spells with chainspell, he expends a number of points from his arcane pool equal to 1/2 the highest spell level of the two spells being cast (minimum 1) and expending both spell slots as normal.

This ability replaces improved spell recall.

Improved Evasion (Ex)

At 13th level, the red magus gains improved evasion, as the advanced rogue talent of the same name.

This ability replaces heavy armor proficiency.


You should probably make it such that the "second spell" of chain spell must be at least 1 level lower than the higher of the two. To prevent him from using two of his highest spell slots at one time (which would end most encounters in a single blast, though probably only once or twice per day).

Cha is usually the worst (read: least liked) of the three mental stats to be a key score, so remember that he is giving up having a high INT.

If he's doing that, he definitely doesn't need to be penalized on his number of arcane pool points, make that CHA based too so he doesn't have to be MAD (using two different mental key scores on a front line combat player is PAINFUL).

I can see armor proficiency for evasion, but doesn't he gain armor proficiencies at level 1? He doesn't get the benefit for those abilities he's giving up until way later. I could be wrong, not looking at magus right atm.

You might consider what happens if he gets attacked during a chain spell. Presumably he would lose both spells if he fails the concentration check. Considering the high cost of Quicken, and the fact that even then it doesn't let you use a second spell, this is a reasonable risk factor to make the ability less powerful.

Liberty's Edge

Shiroi wrote:
You should probably make it such that the "second spell" of chain spell must be at least 1 level lower than the higher of the two. To prevent him from using two of his highest spell slots at one time (which would end most encounters in a single blast, though probably only once or twice per day).

Mmm, yeah. Doubling up on 20d6 Chain Lightning spells at 20th level would be a hell of a lot of outgoing damage. Restricting spell level isn't going to change much though. It's the difference between 40d6 and 35d6. I mean, I play with reasonable people, but maybe I should use the combined spell level of the two spells for the Arcane Pool cost?

Quote:

Cha is usually the worst (read: least liked) of the three mental stats to be a key score, so remember that he is giving up having a high INT.

If he's doing that, he definitely doesn't need to be penalized on his number of arcane pool points, make that CHA based too so he doesn't have to be MAD (using two different mental key scores on a front line combat player is PAINFUL).

Thank you! I'd meant to include a catchall ability to shift everything from Int to Cha, but I forgot.

Quote:
I can see armor proficiency for evasion, but doesn't he gain armor proficiencies at level 1? He doesn't get the benefit for those abilities he's giving up until way later. I could be wrong, not looking at magus right atm.

Medium Armor Proficieny and Heavy Armor Proficiency come at 7 and 13, respectively. At level 1, the Magus can cast in Light Armor without penalty, which this archetype keeps.

Quote:
You might consider what happens if he gets attacked during a chain spell. Presumably he would lose both spells if he fails the concentration check. Considering the high cost of Quicken, and the fact that even then it doesn't let you use a second spell, this is a reasonable risk factor to make the ability less powerful.

That is a very good point.


Overall, this is pretty sweet stuff, IMHO.
Well done, mate :)


I wouldn't allow your highest level spell for the chain at all then, if you're worried about it being a problem.

Try "at least one spell level lower than the highest spell you can cast, and the other spell must be of at least two spell levels lower than the highest level spell you can cast" Now you have to decide between a 5th level spell, or spending arcane points and a longer cast time to cast a 4th and 3rd level spell in one turn.

Liberty's Edge

Shiroi wrote:

I wouldn't allow your highest level spell for the chain at all then, if you're worried about it being a problem.

Try "at least one spell level lower than the highest spell you can cast, and the other spell must be of at least two spell levels lower than the highest level spell you can cast" Now you have to decide between a 5th level spell, or spending arcane points and a longer cast time to cast a 4th and 3rd level spell in one turn.

That's a good idea. I'll have to do some number crunching to see how it stacks up comparing 1 6th, 2 5th, and 1 5th and 1 4th, but the "one level lower than your highest level spell" clause seems promising.


Glad I could help, good luck and have fun.
^-^


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

May want to add a clause to Chain Spell limiting the casting time off valid spells. I don't know offhand what potential abuses there are on the Magus spell list, but as written you could cast two spells with a minute cast time in a mere full round action.

Liberty's Edge

ZZTRaider wrote:
May want to add a clause to Chain Spell limiting the casting time off valid spells. I don't know offhand what potential abuses there are on the Magus spell list, but as written you could cast two spells with a minute cast time in a mere full round action.

Ah, yes. Thanks. ^_^

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It's kind of broken. Being able to cast multiple spells in a round is incredibly powerful. It's one of the reasons Quicken Spell is a +4 metamagic feat and why it's one of the most powerful feats in the game. And this archetype allows you to do it at 4th level. Heck, even in Final Fantasy, Dual Casting is a high level ability

Because of Quicken Spell, you don't really need to make up a new doublecasting ability. There mechanically really isn't much to the Red Mage other than being a job that can fight, cast offensive spells, and cast support spells. The rest of it is style. Many classes in PF do that. An arcane duelist bard would work or a hexcrafter magus or a white mage arcanist eldritch knight.

What in particular is the player looking for?

Liberty's Edge

Cyrad wrote:

It's kind of broken. Being able to cast multiple spells in a round is incredibly powerful. It's one of the reasons Quicken Spell is a +4 metamagic feat and why it's one of the most powerful feats in the game. And this archetype allows you to do it at 4th level. Heck, even in Final Fantasy, Dual Casting is a high level ability

Because of Quicken Spell, you don't really need to make up a new doublecasting ability. There mechanically really isn't much to the Red Mage other than being a job that can fight, cast offensive spells, and cast support spells. The rest of it is style. Many classes in PF do that. An arcane duelist bard would work or a hexcrafter magus or a white mage arcanist eldritch knight.

What in particular is the player looking for?

Mechanically, the only class he's really interested in for it is Magus. Bard has too many knowledge and performance based abilities, he wants to hit the feel from level 1 so he's not keen on multiclassing and PrCs. Hexcrafter is cool, but doesn't quite hit the mark for healing and support abilities that he wants. All of this led to me trying to work out a custom archetype for him.

Chainspell was actually inspired by the Red Mage's 1 hour ability from Final Fantasy 11 (http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Chainspell) and roughly based on the Mystic Theurge's Spell Synthesis ability. Spell Synthesis is a standard action (or whatever action both spells are, most are standard) that can be used once per day as a capstone ability of a prestige class. A hell of an ability to be giving out at 4th level, but I was hoping having to dedicate a full round would help offset that a bit. Do you think it would be more appropriate to put a hard limit on the number of times per day the ability can be used rather than fueling it with arcane points? Or should I rework the ability as something entirely different?


First of all, you need to realize the burst potential that comes from this ability. Full round action to cast two touch spells and deliver them through your blade? At level 4? At the very least move this to 6 and I would recommend moving it to level 11. At that point you may as well just quicken stuff.

I recommend making the chain spell ability allow you to use the quicken metamagic feat for only like 3 levels more or like 1 level less per 2 points you spend from your arcane pool.

Liberty's Edge

SyrioForel wrote:

First of all, you need to realize the burst potential that comes from this ability. Full round action to cast two touch spells and deliver them through your blade? At level 4? At the very least move this to 6 and I would recommend moving it to level 11. At that point you may as well just quicken stuff.

I recommend making the chain spell ability allow you to use the quicken metamagic feat for only like 3 levels more or like 1 level less per 2 points you spend from your arcane pool.

Oh yeah, I'm fully aware of the burst potential. The main problem with Quicken for Magus is that you'll only ever be able to Quicken 2nd level spells or lower. Sure, doubled Scorching Ray is decent, but I'd rather just cast Chain Lightning.

What if Chainspell treated the Magus as half of his caster level for the purposes of spell effects and what level of spell he can Chainspell? That limits the ability to 4th level spells as a 20th level Magus and treats you as a 10th level caster for each of those spells. The most damage you're getting out of that is a 20d8 doubled Detonate, which is still probably a worse option than Chain Lightning.

Silver Crusade

Hm, I like this idea overall, although the 2x spellstrike is a tad over the top. I agree with a lot of the comments made above about toning it down. Personally I'd like to see this archetype gain more divine healing, especially since now just the cure spells feels rather light. Maybe something like "all conjuration (healing) spells", although I can't remember how many spells have that, so I might be just suggesting something horribly overpowered.

I do like the concept for this though, it feels different in a good way.


About doublecast:

The reason it wasn't overpowered in the FF games is because the ability burns mana like crazy as you double the rate of casting and especially because the red mage spell lists SUCKS. HARD.

It has a greater spell variety by having both damaging spells like the black mage and support spells like the white, but neither of them goes over the 2nd-level while the specialized ones get to 4th.

So a decent balancing factor would be shaving down the spell list to 4th level spells, but keeping the slots progression of a Magus.

Something like Bloodrager + Ranger might work, or Bloodrager + Cleric up to 4th


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

If it were anything but a Magus, I'd suggest giving Chainspell a 1 round cast time, rather than a full round action. It's still really powerful if it goes through, but there's still a chance to disrupt it. Because it's a Magus, though, there's a good chance one or both spells will be melee touch, so there's a good chance that there won't be a valid target by the time it goes off.

Perhaps it should act like metamagic for both spells involved. Even just a +1 spell level increase avoids getting off two 6th level spells, limiting the worst case burst, and I think the extra resource drain is still worthwhile.

I do agree that the changes you've made to the spell list aren't really sufficient to give the Red Mage feel. Probably the best thing to do would be to take the time to go through and hand pick an entirely new spell list. It'd be a good bit of work, but it'd let you get the feel a lot closer.

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VikingIrishman wrote:
SyrioForel wrote:

First of all, you need to realize the burst potential that comes from this ability. Full round action to cast two touch spells and deliver them through your blade? At level 4? At the very least move this to 6 and I would recommend moving it to level 11. At that point you may as well just quicken stuff.

I recommend making the chain spell ability allow you to use the quicken metamagic feat for only like 3 levels more or like 1 level less per 2 points you spend from your arcane pool.

Oh yeah, I'm fully aware of the burst potential. The main problem with Quicken for Magus is that you'll only ever be able to Quicken 2nd level spells or lower. Sure, doubled Scorching Ray is decent, but I'd rather just cast Chain Lightning.

What if Chainspell treated the Magus as half of his caster level for the purposes of spell effects and what level of spell he can Chainspell? That limits the ability to 4th level spells as a 20th level Magus and treats you as a 10th level caster for each of those spells. The most damage you're getting out of that is a 20d8 doubled Detonate, which is still probably a worse option than Chain Lightning.

That still doesn't sound like a good idea. Damage is also not the main concern I have with doublecasting.

If chaining spells is so important, he can technically still do it at 1st level. He can cast a touch spell ahead of time, hold the charge until next turn, spell combat, discharge the spell, and then immediately cast another one.

Again, I'm not understanding what's vital for the "feel" of a Red Mage. There isn't much to the Red Mage in Final Fantasy -- it's just a mage that can fight and has a variety of spells. That's not novel in Pathfinder. The Red Mage typically uses rapiers, has light armor, and has a magic list consists of blasts, defense buffs, disables, and heal spells. If he plays a rapier-wielding Dex-based hexcrafter magus, that would cover all the bases. The magus spell list consists of blasts and defensive buff. The hexcrafter can get decent healing abilities and some of the best disables in the game.

Liberty's Edge

ZZTRaider wrote:
I do agree that the changes you've made to the spell list aren't really sufficient to give the Red Mage feel. Probably the best thing to do would be to take the time to go through and hand pick an entirely new spell list. It'd be a good bit of work, but it'd let you get the feel a lot closer.
I was hoping to not have to pore over thousands of spells to customize a spell list. =/
Cyrad wrote:
Again, I'm not understanding what's vital for the "feel" of a Red Mage. There isn't much to the Red Mage in Final Fantasy -- it's just a mage that can fight and has a variety of spells. That's not novel in Pathfinder. The Red Mage typically uses rapiers, has light armor, and has a magic list consists of blasts, defense buffs, disables, and heal spells. If he plays a rapier-wielding Dex-based hexcrafter magus, that would cover all the bases. The magus spell list consists of blasts and defensive buff. The hexcrafter can get decent healing abilities and some of the best disables in the game.

What, aside from the Healing/Major Healing Hexes, does Magus get from the Hexcrafter archetype? Or were those what you meant?

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What else does he want besides healing? Hexcrafter can also get Slumber, Flight, and other stuff.

Liberty's Edge

Cyrad wrote:
What else does he want besides healing? Hexcrafter can also get Slumber, Flight, and other stuff.

Sorry, I left out words. It's been a long day. I meant to ask what, aside from the mentioned hexes, does Hexcrafter grant in the arena of healing? The 1/day effect of the hexes are a bit off-putting for him.


Sounds like you should write a custom spell list. You could start from scratch, you could also start with the magus list and remove 4-6 spells from each spell level. Replace them with some of those cure/inflict spells and a few others that fit in with the red Mage motif.

I will chime in that Chainspell needs to be reworked. As written, a high level red mage could use Quicken Spell to fire off three spells in one round. Maybe you can come up with something that allows him to lessen the level adjustment of meta magic feats by spending arcane points? he would still have to select the feats, but it would also open it up to more than just quicken.

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VikingIrishman wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
What else does he want besides healing? Hexcrafter can also get Slumber, Flight, and other stuff.
Sorry, I left out words. It's been a long day. I meant to ask what, aside from the mentioned hexes, does Hexcrafter grant in the arena of healing? The 1/day effect of the hexes are a bit off-putting for him.

Healing hex is pretty amazing because it's a cure for each member of the party. IF he wants more, you could let him do spell research or maybe swap the magus list for witch? Or maybe say everytime he takes the spell blending arcana, he chooses from witch instead of wizard spells?

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