Does a creature with change shape (su) revert to its original form or keeps trapped in another form in an antimagic field?


Rules Questions


Some say it reverts, but some other say the creature keeps trapped in the other form and cannot change back while in the antimagic field; even some fantasy books depict that in that way.

What do rules say?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
anti-magic field wrote:
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell's duration.

To me, this says that any creature under a magical effect that changes its form will revert to its normal form when it enters an anti-magic field. A DM *might* argue that the form-changing abilities of lycanthropes is not a magical effect but a curse, but IMHO that would be a very narrow definition of "magical effect" which seems to be intended to encompass nearly any spell, ability or power you could imagine.

Perhaps a psychic power would not be considered a magical effect. I don't have the relevant book yet to rule on that.


Psychic powers are magical effects. They're simply a third type of magic (Arcane, Divine, Psychic).

A lot of it depends on what kind of effect it actually is. Some magical effects are magical only when the creature is transforming, but once the transformation is done, that body is effectively mundane. This would stop a creature from shifting in an antimagic field, but not revert them.

Other transformations are ongoing magical effects, and I think these would revert. All depends on the base power and how the GM decides it works, really.

In the case of Change Shape, I would say the creatures revert because it functions basically as Polymorph. That spell normally allows the target to revert at-will, implying some kind of ongoing magic waiting to be activated.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it.

We see that supernatural abilities are listed as an example of a magical effect in the first quoted sentence, and that magical effects are suppressed in the last quoted sentence, therefore Change Shape (Su) would be suppressed (but not dispelled) while within the field.

As for what suppression means in relation to Change Shape (Su), it tells us "[Change Shape] functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description... Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely."

Neither polymorph nor any of its derivatives are of instantaneous duration, which means that an ongoing magic effect is required to let you maintain that shape. The Change Shape description lets us extend the duration of said ongoing magic effect to permanent (D) instead of the normal 1 minute/level (D) that the majority of the spells have. Therefore, since Change Shape (Su) is an ongoing magical effect, suppressing it would indeed mean that the creature (or rather, the parts of the creature in the antimagic field) reverts back to their original form while they remain in the field.


Well... now i have two interpretations ATM:

1) To keep the alternate form means you are using magic, then you reverts back to your original form in the antimagic field. But if we assume that, that means we can just use dispel magic to revert a polymorphed creature, by supernatural means, back to normal, at least for a round. Also a polymorphed creature, by supernatural means, would be detectable with just detect magic.

2) The alternate form is just a mundane form, then not reverting back to original form in the antimagic field. It would mean a lycanthrope remains a lycanthrope but its bite cannot curse people, a kitsune with that fox feat in fox form is trapped in his fox form and a doppelganger is trapped in his human assumed form and cannot change again to another form while in the field. It is similar to wall of fire, you can dispel it, but that doesn't remove the burns it caused.

skizzerz wrote:
"[url=http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/antimagicField.html#antimagic-field wrote:
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it.
As for what suppression means in relation to Change Shape (Su), it tells us "[Change Shape] functions as a [i]polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description... Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely."

The problem with your interpretation is... change shape is not a spell, and we cannot state the alternate form is a magical effect. It could be that the antimagic field locks the shapeshifter to use its ability, similarly to an antimagic field and the bag of holding; items keep unaccesible in that field instead of dropping everywhere.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

While Change Shape is indeed not a spell, it functions as one, which to me implies that includes how the spell generally works (e.g. instantaneous vs. having a duration). Dispel magic would not work on Change Shape because it only lets you "end one ongoing spell that has been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, or to counter another spellcaster's spell. " -- ending an ongoing supernatural ability is not one of the options allowed by the spell. It is true that I am making an assumption that "functions as" would include the basics of whether or not the spell is an ongoing effect or instantaneous effect, and since the base spell is an ongoing magic effect, something that functions as the base spell would similarly be an ongoing magic effect. I do not find such an assumption to be unreasonable, and indeed I personally believe that making the opposite assumption (that a supernatural ability which functions as a spell with an ongoing magic effect suddenly shifts to an instantaneous effect) is unreasonable and not supported by the rules.


I think the problem relies in what "suppression" means in the rules.


skizzerz wrote:
While Change Shape is indeed not a spell, it functions as one, which to me implies that includes how the spell generally works (e.g. instantaneous vs. having a duration). Dispel magic would not work on Change Shape because it only lets you "end one ongoing spell that has been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, or to counter another spellcaster's spell. " -- ending an ongoing supernatural ability is not one of the options allowed by the spell. It is true that I am making an assumption that "functions as" would include the basics of whether or not the spell is an ongoing effect or instantaneous effect, and since the base spell is an ongoing magic effect, something that functions as the base spell would similarly be an ongoing magic effect. I do not find such an assumption to be unreasonable, and indeed I personally believe that making the opposite assumption (that a supernatural ability which functions as a spell with an ongoing magic effect suddenly shifts to an instantaneous effect) is unreasonable and not supported by the rules.

But that does mean you can just cast detect magic to detect doppelgangers and raksashas and metallic dragons...


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Detect magic seems to only detect the auras of functioning spells and magic items (and lingering auras of the same when a spell is dissipated or a magic item destroyed). Again, supernatural abilities are not included in there, and as such would not be able to be detected via detect magic in my opinion. I don't think spell-like abilities would be able to be detected, either, but an argument over that would be veering heavily off-topic.

Suppression is not a game term, so it assumes its dictionary meaning, which is

Dictionary wrote:

suppress verb (used with object)

1. to put an end to the activities of (a person, body of persons, etc.): to suppress the Communist and certain left-leaning parties.
2. to do away with by or as by authority; abolish; stop (a practice, custom, etc.).
3. to keep in or repress (a feeling, smile, groan, etc.).
4. to withhold from disclosure or publication (truth, evidence, a book, names, etc.).
5. to stop or arrest (a flow, hemorrhage, cough, etc.).
6. to vanquish or subdue (a revolt, rebellion, etc.); quell; crush.

#2 seems to be the most fitting definition here, but they all mean roughly the same thing -- the effect does not function while it is being suppressed. If it's an ongoing effect (which Change Shape is per the above), then the status quo (e.g. original form) is restored while the effect is suppressed.

EDIT: Here is an older thread regarding detect magic and Su/Sp abilities (including Change Shape) which completely disagrees with what I just said. RAI I'd say that thread is probably also correct, but a strict RAW reading does seem to limit what detect magic is capable of. Take that as you will.


As antimagic field suppresses supernatural abilities it should definitely do something to change shape.

The question becomes, is change shape an ongoing magical effect or is it more like conjuration magic which happens instantaneously and then is no longer magical.

Personally, I am of the opinion that the form is sustained by magic as it references the polymorph spell, which has a duration and is not instantaneous. Ergo, stepping into an antimagic field will place the creature back in it's original form.


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I don't know that the reference to polymorph can be taken as anything more than the what abilities etc. the creature gets. In particular, the duration of 'indefinitely' is clearly quite different.

I would probably rule that as long as the change shape was of 'indefinite' duration, the supernatural ability powered the change, but wasn't required to maintain it. If it was a change shape with an actual duration, I would probably have the creature revert to natural shape.

I don't really have a whole lot to support this, just that it sort of feels like that is how it should work to me. Plus it seems a whole lot easier to deal with should this situation ever come up.


Infinite duration and instantaneous duration are two very different things.

If it's infinite duration it's a polymorph that never wears off, a permanency effect. But just like dispel could get rid of, antimagic field would suppress it.

So, unless the change from change shape is a instantaneous duration (which I don't think it is) then the individual would revert back to their original form.


I certainly agree they are different, and the difference is why I said I don't have a lot to support it. If change shape was defined as instantaneous there would be no question how is should be ruled. Similarly, polymorph as a spell like ability would obviously be suppressed and the creature returned to natural form in an anti-magic field.

Indefinite though is indefinite, and exactly what that is remains unclear as far as a game term.

And of course dispel magic won't do a thing to change shape.

Liberty's Edge

cablop wrote:

Well... now i have two interpretations ATM:

1) To keep the alternate form means you are using magic, then you reverts back to your original form in the antimagic field. But if we assume that, that means we can just use dispel magic to revert a polymorphed creature, by supernatural means, back to normal, at least for a round. Also a polymorphed creature, by supernatural means, would be detectable with just detect magic.

2) The alternate form is just a mundane form, then not reverting back to original form in the antimagic field. It would mean a lycanthrope remains a lycanthrope but its bite cannot curse people, a kitsune with that fox feat in fox form is trapped in his fox form and a doppelganger is trapped in his human assumed form and cannot change again to another form while in the field. It is similar to wall of fire, you can dispel it, but that doesn't remove the burns it caused.

skizzerz wrote:
"[url=http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/antimagicField.html#antimagic-field wrote:
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it.
As for what suppression means in relation to Change Shape (Su), it tells us "[Change Shape] functions as a [i]polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description... Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely."
The problem with your interpretation is... change shape is not a spell, and we cannot state the alternate form is a magical effect. It could be that the antimagic field locks the shapeshifter to use its ability, similarly to an antimagic field and the bag of holding; items keep unaccesible in that field instead of dropping everywhere.

First entry of the glossary: Special Abilities

Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities.


Diego Rossi wrote:

First entry of the glossary: Special Abilities

Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities.

@Diego Rossi, you are placing some emphasis in some portions of the text. A text we already know. But i don't get what you mean, what's your position about this.

It still doesn't explain what happens to the shapeshifted in the antimagic field. If being in an alternate form is part of the supernatural ability or if it is an effect of the supernatural ability, a supernatural ability that is not in use at that moment. It does not explain if the text saying "Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely" means this change the spell's duration or if we get rid of the spell duration thing and the creature is in a different mundane form.


I'm going to summarize the rules and texts related to the question here:

Supernatural Abilities (Su):
Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities.

Change Shape (Su):
A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature’s description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely. Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their descriptions.

Polymorph:

School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a piece of the creature whose form you choose)
Range touch
Target living creature touched
Duration 1 min/level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)

This spell transforms a willing creature into an animal, humanoid or elemental of your choosing; the spell has no effect on unwilling creatures, nor can the creature being targeted by this spell influence the new form assumed (apart from conveying its wishes, if any, to you verbally).

If you use this spell to cause the target to take on the form of an animal, the spell functions as beast shape II. If the form is that of an elemental, the spell functions as elemental body I. If the form is that of a humanoid, the spell functions as alter self. The subject may choose to resume its normal form as a full-round action; doing so ends the spell for that subject.

Antimagic Field:

School abjuration; Level cleric 8, sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (pinch of powdered iron or iron filings)
Range 10 ft.
Area 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance see text

An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell's duration.

Summoned creatures of any type wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature's spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures' spell-like or supernatural abilities may be temporarily nullified by the field. Dispel magic does not remove the field.

Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field. Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.

Pathfinder RPG Bestiary FAQ - Change Shape: Does a creature with this ability use the duration of the change shape spell, and have to keep renewing as it expires?:

As originally written, with how the Pathfinder rules for change shape work, a creature with the ability must keep renewing it every few minutes, as it is based on a spell with a duration. This negatively affects creatures such as doppelgangers, which live for extended periods in an alternate form, and having to reactivate this ability would ruin the ruse, especially as it couldn't do so while it slept.

The way this ability works is being updated as of Bestiary 2. For now, unless a creature's description says otherwise, treat any creature with change shape as if it had the ability to remain in its alternate form indefinitely, without needing to reactivate the ability.


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GM Rednal wrote:

Psychic powers are magical effects. They're simply a third type of magic (Arcane, Divine, Psychic).

4th if you include Psionic.


To add to my confusion, this is the only thing about change shape i get from the FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Change Shape: Does a creature with this ability use the duration of the change shape spell, and have to keep renewing as it expires?

As originally written, with how the Pathfinder rules for change shape work, a creature with the ability must keep renewing it every few minutes, as it is based on a spell with a duration. This negatively affects creatures such as doppelgangers, which live for extended periods in an alternate form, and having to reactivate this ability would ruin the ruse, especially as it couldn't do so while it slept.
The way this ability works is being updated as of Bestiary 2. For now, unless a creature's description says otherwise, treat any creature with change shape as if it had the ability to remain in its alternate form indefinitely, without needing to reactivate the ability.

That part about not needing to reactivate the ability could make us think while the effect is present the ability is not active at that moment...


Dave Justus wrote:

I certainly agree they are different, and the difference is why I said I don't have a lot to support it. If change shape was defined as instantaneous there would be no question how is should be ruled. Similarly, polymorph as a spell like ability would obviously be suppressed and the creature returned to natural form in an anti-magic field.

Indefinite though is indefinite, and exactly what that is remains unclear as far as a game term.

And of course dispel magic won't do a thing to change shape.

Sorry, I was speaking of a permanent duration polymorph being capable of being dispelled not a SU natural ability. That is a specific caveat of all SU.

So it all depends on whether or not indefinite means instantaneous or infinitely long.

cablop wrote:

To add to my confusion, this is the only thing about change shape i get from the FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Change Shape: Does a creature with this ability use the duration of the change shape spell, and have to keep renewing as it expires?

As originally written, with how the Pathfinder rules for change shape work, a creature with the ability must keep renewing it every few minutes, as it is based on a spell with a duration. This negatively affects creatures such as doppelgangers, which live for extended periods in an alternate form, and having to reactivate this ability would ruin the ruse, especially as it couldn't do so while it slept.
The way this ability works is being updated as of Bestiary 2. For now, unless a creature's description says otherwise, treat any creature with change shape as if it had the ability to remain in its alternate form indefinitely, without needing to reactivate the ability.
That part about not needing to reactivate the ability could make us think while the effect is present the ability is not active at that moment...

Not at all really. Reactivate in this sense means using the ability again to keep their disguise up and active (which would be noticeable), not that the ability is not active. This is because the ability is based on polymorph, which would normally have a duration (1min/level) but this adversely effects doppelgangers and some other monsters.

So they are more implying that for the purposes of duration they have infinite caster level.


This other part confuses me on antimagic field: "The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting"... Could we consider the change shape works like it? If the golem still walks in the antimagic field, then the alternate form of the shapeshifter could also be "self-supported"?

I'd like to know... I remembered a book from Forgotten Realms where a hulijing (a kitsune, in chinese) cames to speach with a woman witch in a dead magic zone, he had to enter in fox form (it'll be the fox shape feat) and remained in that form cause he had no means to become humanoid in the zone.


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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
4th if you include Psionic.

I like psionics - and have allowed it in my games more than once - but it's not one of the 'official' magic types. XD So, 3rd.

(If we include 3PP, there's lots of interesting alternatives, though. Spherecasting, Psionics, Ethermagic, Truenaming... I like occasionally tossing things in that my players probably aren't familiar with, just to give a sense that the world is bigger than they know.)


I realized some creatures ave invisibility as spell-like ability while others have it as supernatural ability... So i have to add them to this same question.

Liberty's Edge

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cablop wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

First entry of the glossary: Special Abilities

Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities.

@Diego Rossi, you are placing some emphasis in some portions of the text. A text we already know. But i don't get what you mean, what's your position about this.

It still doesn't explain what happens to the shapeshifted in the antimagic field. If being in an alternate form is part of the supernatural ability or if it is an effect of the supernatural ability, a supernatural ability that is not in use at that moment. It does not explain if the text saying "Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely" means this change the spell's duration or if we get rid of the spell duration thing and the creature is in a different mundane form.

1) there were a few post arguing that if a SU ability is permanent (I would say constant more than permanent) it can be dispelled. I showed the piece of the rules that say that it can't be dispelled.

2) the other argument was about it not being suppressed, and the other piece of text I bolded say that SU abilities are suppressed in a anti magic field.

Seeing the 2 pieces above I have some difficult in getting how you find my position is unclear.

As long as the SU ability is something that is active suppressing it revert you to your normal state.
A anti magic field will even suppress some creature DR, if it is defined as a SU ability.

Se can look the Change Shape Universal Monster rule for more information:

PD wrote:


Change Shape (Su)(1) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance(2) of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities(3). A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell(4), the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely. Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their description.(5)

1) Simply the confirmation that it is a SU ability and not EX.

2) you assume the appearance, you don't become the creature
3) you retain most of your physical qualities. Decidedly non a change of type but something overlaid on your original for,m by magic.
4) the rules about how the effect of the shapechange is determined.
5) special rules for lycanthropes that don't really change anything about the points above.

So, we have something overlaid by magic over your original form. You suppress the magic, what you get? Your original form.

Liberty's Edge

cablop wrote:


**Polymorph spoiler **

Wrong citation, the text in the Change Shape description refer to this section of the rules:

PRD wrote:


Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.

In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.

If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.

Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.

When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

Is is not "the polymorph spell" it is "a polymorph spell". A whole category of spells with specific rules.

Liberty's Edge

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cablop wrote:
This other part confuses me on antimagic field: "The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting"... Could we consider the change shape works like it? If the golem still walks in the antimagic field, then the alternate form of the shapeshifter could also be "self-supported"?

Self supporting = they don't need magic to stay alive (generally they have a bound spirit that animate them, BTW) =/= they don't need magic to maintain a magic fueled form.

cablop wrote:


I'd like to know... I remembered a book from Forgotten Realms where a hulijing (a kitsune, in chinese) cames to speach with a woman witch in a dead magic zone, he had to enter in fox form (it'll be the fox shape feat) and remained in that form cause he had no means to become humanoid in the zone.

A novel that could refer to 2nd, 3rd or 3.5 rule set, even assuming that the writer did know how the rules work. Not a basis for a interpretation of the actual rules of the game.

I recall a Forgotten Realms book printed during the 2nd edition with a druid changing shape into a magical beast. It was one of the major gimmicks of the bock an something that was totally impossible for a character that was following the rules.

cablop wrote:
I realized some creatures ave invisibility as spell-like ability while others have it as supernatural ability... So i have to add them to this same question.

Invisibility: SU invisibility is suppressed, EX is maintained

Flight: SU Flight is suppressed, EX is maintained (what differentiate EX from SU fligth is defined in another section of the book. Barring special rules in the creature description it is SU if you don't have wings)

Liberty's Edge

cablop wrote:

To add to my confusion, this is the only thing about change shape i get from the FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Change Shape: Does a creature with this ability use the duration of the change shape spell, and have to keep renewing as it expires?

As originally written, with how the Pathfinder rules for change shape work, a creature with the ability must keep renewing it every few minutes, as it is based on a spell with a duration. This negatively affects creatures such as doppelgangers, which live for extended periods in an alternate form, and having to reactivate this ability would ruin the ruse, especially as it couldn't do so while it slept.
The way this ability works is being updated as of Bestiary 2. For now, unless a creature's description says otherwise, treat any creature with change shape as if it had the ability to remain in its alternate form indefinitely, without needing to reactivate the ability.
That part about not needing to reactivate the ability could make us think while the effect is present the ability is not active at that moment...

That FAQ is from 2010 and the ability text has been updated.

The current version of Change shape with the updated text:

PRD wrote:


Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities). A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely. Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their description.


@Diego Rossi you are ignoring this part:

PRD wrote:
Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely. Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their description.

Is that part extending the time the polymorph spell lasts or is that replacing that part making the su ability more like a conjuration spell or a spell with instantaneous (like Flesh to Stone) duration?

Also if the antimagic field says:

PRD wrote:
A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures' spell-like or supernatural abilities may be temporarily nullified by the field. Dispel magic does not remove the field.

Those other magic/supernatural beings remain unaffected, even ghosts and shadows.

So the points you are emphasizing, as others already did, don't solve those two things to reach a conclusion.

The su ability is not a spell. Is "can remain in an alternate form indefinitely" be a consequence of the su ability or is it part of a spell, being a constantly magical fueled effect?

If other creatures like golems and undeads remain stable, even made that way by magic, why cannot the alternate shape form work that way?

I'm in that grey area. I like the idea of them being reverted to their original forms; but i hate the downside of deflavoring doppelgangers, faceless stalkers and raksashas, that secondary effect of them being detected by a cantrip is... well... stupid...

I also like the idea of them being trapped in their alternate forms, the tale of the kitsune that had to enter in fox form through a magic dead zone to talk with his master is also nice. But of course it seems to break the rules, or at least an abuse of the ambiguity of the language...

Liberty's Edge

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cablop wrote:

@Diego Rossi you are ignoring this part:

PRD wrote:
Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely. Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their description.

Is that part extending the time the polymorph spell lasts or is that replacing that part making the su ability more like a conjuration spell or a spell with instantaneous (like Flesh to Stone) duration?

Also if the antimagic field says:

PRD wrote:
A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures' spell-like or supernatural abilities may be temporarily nullified by the field. Dispel magic does not remove the field.

Those other magic/supernatural beings remain unaffected, even ghosts and shadows.

So the points you are emphasizing, as others already did, don't solve those two things to reach a conclusion.

The su ability is...

You are reading things that aren't there.

"Elementals, undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected" simply mean that magical creatures aren't destroyed/deactivated/killed by an anti magic field. Read the text just after that piece:
These creatures' spell-like or supernatural abilities may be temporarily nullified by the field.
There is a may there because some rare ability isn't subjected to the anti magic field effect, but unless it is specify stated SU ability are affected.

Honestly, you have decided how you want it to work. As long as it is your game, do as you want, but that don't make it the official game rule.

Shadow Lodge

Indefinitely: for an unlimited or unspecified period of time.

To me, that sounds like an ongoing effect rather than an instantaneous one.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Honestly, you have decided how you want it to work. As long as it is your game, do as you want, but that don't make it the official game rule.

Sadly i didn't decide.

I assumed they worked like in the tale i mentioned.

Now i think the field would revert them back to their original forms... what i really hate of that concept is that means the SU are magical effects detectable by a simple detect magic cantrip, underpowering doppelgangers, faceless stalkers, raksashas, metallic dragons and even titans!

I still haven't decided...


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Supernatural abilities are, by definition, magical. So yes, RAW, they would ping on Detect Magic. If you don't like that, change it; it's a pretty reasonable house rule to make, and very similar to how some people house rule Detect Evil to avoid breaking plots.

The bottom line, though, is that Change Shape explicitly functions as the spell listed in the creature's description, with the specific exceptions listed -- namely, it acts as a supernatural ability and has and lasts as long as the creature wants.

We see this methodology of defining an ability elsewhere, too. Take a look at the spell description of Greater Invisibility. It explicitly functions as Invisibility, then provides exceptions and changes to things like duration.


Change Shape is a Supernatural Ability.
Supernatural Abilities are affected by Anti-magic Fields.
Supernatural Abilities are not subject to Dispel Magic.
That is all you need to know as far as whether or not they remain in their Change Shape appearance while in an AMF. They don't. Nor can they be pulled out of them with Dispel Magic.

In regards to detect magic being a powerful cantrip? Well, lets take a look.

Detect Magic gives you the strength of the magical aura of an ongoing magical effect after 3 rounds of concentration. That's basically all that matters for what we're doing.

You can then use Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana in conjunction with Detect Magic to (I am omitting obviously irrelevant things like deciphering scrolls):

1)Identify a spell as it is being cast.
2)Identify auras while using detect magic.
3)Identify a spell effect that is in place.

1) Change shape is not a spell, nor is it being cast thus it cannot be identified this way.
2) Identify aura: ok cool, its a transmutation magic that is ongoing... could be nearly ANYTHING.
3) This is where it gets tricky. Is CS, or is CS not an on-going spell-effect? "This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description..." Ok, so yeah, you can identify the spell the ability is based on. But what does that get you, and how can you get around it?

So a succubus approaches your party. Wizard spends 3 rounds concentrating on detect magic to get the aura, it's a weak aura, based on a lvl 2 spell (alter shape). Turn 4 he gets the type of spell (Transmutation), turn 5 he gets that she is under the effects of an Alter Self spell. Cool. A chick with Alter Self on her has approached your party. What do now?
Nudge your paladin buddy to detect evil. He receives a ping with a Strong Aura. What does that tell you? It is an aligned character with 26-50 HD, highly unlikely. Could be an undead with 9-20 HD, that is kinda scary with how wide that variable is. Or it could be an Evil Outsider or an Evil Cleric with 5-10 HD. Everyone knows clerics don't usually have access to Alter Self, nor do undead. All that realistically leaves is outsiders. Evil outsiders with alter self? Succubus, if you can get the knowledge roll.

So, between the 2 detect spells and some skill checks you have spent 8 rounds trying to figure out what the heck is going on. That is a LOT of time. One problem, any succubus worth her salt will have a ring of mind-shielding or be under the effects of non-detection. The ring shuts down Detect Evil, now she's back to being just some chick with Alter Self on. You could spend that time trying to identify her ring from a distance, but all you will get is a minor aura of abjuration without being able to closely inspect the ring. If she had time to hit the ring with a magic aura spell, then you are SOL, its mundane as far as you can tell. Better yet, if she had been the subject of a non-detection spell, then you can't detect anything on her, no alignment, no magical auras, nothing. Good luck making that perception check to see though her disguise!

A well prepared shapechanger gives zero F*&^S about a cantrip like detect magic or detect alignment. How much power is in the hands of players is entirely dictated by the GM and if the GM is competent, the players would never know. Something like detect magic is easily overcome if you know what you are doing.

Now, onto the brief mention of using Detect Magic to see invisible creatures... That is so risky it's... no, but for prosperity's sake, lets see why.

Detect magic gives you the knowledge that magic is in front of you on turn 1, if anyone from your party is in front of you, you don't notice an invisible thing. Round 2, if they are still in your cone of vision, you get the number of auras. At this point you might notice how many auras are there being up 1 from normal, highly unlikely though. Round 3, locations. If they stayed in front of the caster for 3 rounds, they did something wrong, but, suppose they are that dumb. You notice an aura that is out of place! Good job magic man. But, what is it? Turn 4, it's Illusion! WHELP! That's not good, how about turn 5? Oh its Invisibility or its greater form. It has now had 4-5 turns to eat your face.

If that was an Assassin with greater invisibility walking along side you? Free death attack, and you never knew he was there, even with your detect magic. As far as the party is concerned that could have even been a trap that the rogue missed rather than an NPC.

Detect Magic only solves problems that give you enough time to solve them. This is why it is a cantrip, it is truly only useful out-side of combat scenarios. For those, you have Arcane Sight, See Invisibility, True Seeing, etc.


Yes, you change back to normal.

SU are suppressed by Anti-Magic. Change Shape is SU. Change Shape is suppressed.

Change Shape has been changed to an unlimited duration. But that, by definition, means it is an on-going effect and not an instantaneous transformation.

Novels are not rules books.


Keiger wrote:
-snip-

About a year and a half too late on that one.

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