Ways to Beef Up Daggers?


Advice


I'm thinking about running a Knife Master Rogue, but I want a weapon that can hold its own if I'm discovered. Does anyone know of a decent way to beef up the daggers themselves?

Liberty's Edge

I'm going to assume that by being discovered, you mean not be able to use sneak attack. And no, there no option that's going to make daggers going to deal good enough damage to make up for not sneak attacking. A couple things you could try would be either using UMD on a scroll of Lead Blades, or dipping 1 level in warpriest to make the damage 1d6 instead of 1d4, but that's 1 damage on average. If you're not playing an unchained rogue, the agile property pretty much goes without saying, unless of course you're a strength build. But it, like any elemental abilities, add damage but don't increase attack bonus, which is something a rogue direly needs.

My suggestion might be to take the scout archetype along with knife master. It's a pretty easy way to guarantee sneak attack once a round. And if you're not building around an unchained rogue, I highly suggest that you do.


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Different materials is one way to increase the daggers without magic, though some do require masterwork be applied.

Poisons are another thing that can really make them deadly.


Piranha Strike helps, but you really want one of the ways to get sneak attack without stealth. There are many of these.


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trait - river rat, +1 damage with daggers, +1 swim
feat - deific obedience (pharasma) - +2 sacred bonus to hit with daggers


Daggers do Piercing Damage. When your BAB gets to +7, take Hamatula Strike, and wear Armor Spikes. Hamatula Strike lets you make a free Grapple Check with every hit with a Piercing Weapon. Armor Spikes inflict damage with every successful Grapple Attack. Since the Dagger and Grapple attacks are different attacks, both score Sneak Attack Damage.

Take a level in Warpriest and make your Weapon Focus Dagger. Then your Daggers will do 1d6. Take the Minor Blessing of Destruction, and they will do +1 Damage.

Accomplished Sneak Attacker gives you an extra 1d6 Sneak Attack Damage.

Vital Strike gives you an extra weapon die of damage, not that impressive when that's 1d4, but there it is. Maybe it's not so bad when you take that level in Warpriest and also take Hamatula Strike, then Vital Strike will let you do an extra 1 or 2 d6.

When you start thinking about owning good daggers instead of just lots of daggers, then you'll start wanting a Blinkback Belt, probably.

Get Daggers made with a variety of materials: Cold Iron, Adamantine, Silver? Silver Daggers do -1 Damage. Mithril Daggers are fairly inexpensive, I guess, but maybe just yourself some silver throwing hammers. It's probably a good idea to have some weapons that do Piercing, Slashing, and Blunt Damage, too. Cover your bases when it comes to DR.

Weapon Blanch is a poor choice for Daggers. But get Weapon Blanch for ammunition, like Shuriken or Sling Bullets.

avr wrote:
Piranha Strike helps, but you really want one of the ways to get sneak attack without stealth. There are many of these.

Dirty Tricks Combat Maneuver can make opponents Blind. Blinded opponnents get no Dex Mod to AC, so you get your Sneak Attack.

Combat Expertise or Dirty Fighter
Improved Dirty Trick
Quick Dirty Trick
Greater Dirty Trick.

If your opponent has Blind Fighting or something, play another Dirty Trick, and make him Deaf, too!

Take 1 level in Arcanist, and you get Dimensional Hop. This is a 10' tactical teleport that doesn't leave you disoriented. It should really help you achieve Flanking.

The Ninja Vanishing Trick will let you turn Invisible for 1 round as a Swift Action, so you lock in your Sneak Attack Damage.

Kukris do the same damage as Daggers, but they have a threat range of 18-20, but you can't throw them.

To Develop your Daggers as Throwing Weapons, you need to take Quickdraw and Precise Shot. I don't think Rapid Shot will work with Thrown Weapons. Snapshot feats are pretty good.


A few levels of warprist will raise the damage and you get a few perks to go with it.

Grand Lodge

Increasing damage for a Knifemaster Rogue? Yes, take Combat Expertise + Improved Feint and sneak attack every round. Those extra d8s will help out your damage a lot!

A level of Brawler or Swashbuckler will let you bypass the INT 13 requirement for Combat Expertise. Swashbuckler lets you substitute Charisma for it, and Brawler let's you ignore the INT 13 requirement. Snakebite Striker archetype even lets you bump up your sneak attack a notch.

Or you can just take a level of Mesmerist and skip taking Combat Expertise altogether. The Vexing Daredevil is a pretty sweet, combat oriented archetype that combines well with the Knifemaster Rogue.


poison


Warpriest might have a ton of advantages.

Besides the free weapon focus and the shift to 1d6, you could also cast divine favor on yourself. With pearls of power (cheap at 1,000 per pop with this scenario), you could get enough 1st levels spells for every fight.

I would grab 2 levels though, both for the extra spell and for the fervor ability that lets you cast as a swift action. You would be able to do it for 1+WIS times per day, so getting a wis headband would be an advantage (like it wasn't already when you have poor will saves).

Though honestly, all this works better if you are building for the warpriest levels from the get go. Needs more investment which should typically happen early on. Not much help with an existing character.

But yes, I can see making a mean character with this- warpriest of pharasma, with the deific obedience, and getting fate's favor on divine favor plus weapon focus...I think you could even go with a TWF core rogue and still do alright.


Whoof. All this advice! I love it! Thanks, all :D I truly appreciate the new avenues.


Strangely enough the generic term dagger could be a host of different forms and functions....

Maybe a sawtooth dagger....like the sawtooth saber only in dagger form. A long handled dagger that can in a pinch be used 2handed...


Three levels in weapon master fighter will get you weapon training with daggers, which can be boosted by gloves of dueling.

Shadow Lodge

For pure simplicity, STR-Fighters:

Fighter
River Rat Trait
L1 Weapon Focus: Dagger, Power Attack
L3 Deific Obedience Pharasma
L4 Weapon Specialization: Dagger
L5 Weapon Training: Dagger. Feat: Advanced Weapon Training: Focused Weapon--Dagger (gain Warpriest weapon damage die w/ Dagger)

After this point: Gloves of Dueling, Improved Weapon Focus/Specialization, Improved Critical, etc

Optional, at L6 start the Sentinel Prestige Class. Pick up above mentioned feats along way.


Be a Knifemaster Scout. Pick up Circling Mongoose and [url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/canny-tumble-combat[/url]. At 9th level, you have two options: charge/spring attack an enemy for sneak attack or full round attack with sneak attack on each hit.

Liberty's Edge

The Startoss Style feats all boost dagger damage, and are not limited to ranged attacks.

Sovereign Court

1 level of Medium (channeling Champion) + spirit focus feat = +2 attack +4 damage with all non-spell attacks. After you report and attack and its a miss (or fail a fort save) you can roll 1d6 several times per day with Spirit Surge and add it the roll and check if it misses (or fails) again.

Swashbuckler(flying blade) 10 for Precise Strike (+10 damage, swift to make it +20), Swashbuckler Weapon Training +2 (+2 attack and damage, improved crit, +15 to range increment of daggers), Deadly Aim -3 attack/+6 damage, Startoss Style/Comet/Shower +6 damage and can take a standard action to ricochet the damage around a little.

Weapon focus/specialization, Deific Obedience(Pharasma), River Rat as noted above.

So still 1d4 ... +30(40 w/swift action & panache) damage.

This is actually one of my characters ("V for Vastatio") I am thinking about playing for PFS (an earlier iteration), but I've dropped Medium and 1 level of Swashbuckler in the plan for 2 levels of Monk(Far Strike) to get feats sooner, better saves and the option of flurry with thrown weapon attacks. (And to afford the feats Martial Focus and Ricochet Toss)

Flying Blade may not seem like it adds much since you can already get Precise Strike when throwing a piercing 1h weapon within 30 feet, but the important part is their level 3 "Disrupting Counter". When a melee enemy decides to attack the annoying dude with just a small dagger and takes 2 attacks of opportunity (fortuitous weapon) for 30 damage each for the first attack directed toward you, and a single AoO for each additional attack, they will likely change their mind on targets or be dead. And dead (or crits) means more Panache for more AoOs. It is really tempting to go Swashbuckler 11 for the signature deed (applies to Swashies right?) on Disrupting Counter, but this requires a ton of feats.


"Disrupting Counter"

Who knew swashbucklers can get a version of come and get me at level 3. Makes me want to play this character.

Sovereign Court

It does cost 1 point of Panache for the AoO, but unlike Opportune Parry and Riposte (which Flying Blade does still have) it is not an Immediate action, just an AoO. And you get the counter attack up front instead of having to succeed on 2 attack rolls with Parry and then Riposte.

You can potentially burn all of your Panache in a single round if you are not careful with Combat Reflexes.


Shisumo wrote:
The Startoss Style feats all boost dagger damage, and are not limited to ranged attacks.

For Startoss style to be really good you need Flurry as it doesn't work with TWF. I'd suggest Farstrike Monk.

Sentinel of Pharsma is also a nice buff for Dagger wielders.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

-Play an unchained rogue, get weapon finesse and DEX to damage on daggers.
-Be a halfling.
-River Rat Trait for +1 damage.
-Use Two-Weapon Fighting with deific obedience Pharasma.
-Dirty Fighting, Improved dirty Trick and greater dirty trick are great ways to get sneak attack with blinding foes. Vexing dodger archetype gets improved dirty trick as a bonus feat. If you want to multiclass, take 5 levels of unchained barbarian untamed rager archetype, gets greater dirty trick at level 5 and unchained rage works with weapon finesse.
-Deft palm and underhanded rogue tricks work great either with improved initiative and surprising combatant or betrayer feats.

I would recommend the vexing dodger archetype over the knife master.
Knife Master has the d8 on sneak attack, but vexing dodger gives you more opportunity for sneak attack and you get several advantages versus foes larger than you, which are most if you´re a halfling.
With a certain new racial trait you can also hide behind your medium sized party members.


Hayato Ken wrote:

-Play an unchained rogue, get weapon finesse and DEX to damage on daggers.

-Be a halfling.
-River Rat Trait for +1 damage.
-Use Two-Weapon Fighting with deific obedience Pharasma.
-Dirty Fighting, Improved dirty Trick and greater dirty trick are great ways to get sneak attack with blinding foes. Vexing dodger archetype gets improved dirty trick as a bonus feat. If you want to multiclass, take 5 levels of unchained barbarian untamed rager archetype, gets greater dirty trick at level 5 and unchained rage works with weapon finesse.
-Deft palm and underhanded rogue tricks work great either with improved initiative and surprising combatant or betrayer feats.

I would recommend the vexing dodger archetype over the knife master.
Knife Master has the d8 on sneak attack, but vexing dodger gives you more opportunity for sneak attack and you get several advantages versus foes larger than you, which are most if you´re a halfling.
With a certain new racial trait you can also hide behind your medium sized party members.

And I thought you were suggesting hafling for risky striker.

Which is a great idea. Cause it gives you power attack like damage bonuses against anything big and beefy, and all at the cost of 1 AC.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Risky Striker comes on top of that^^
The cool thing is it being compatible with piranha strike.

Halflings also have nice other feats, like the one that gives you another +2 dodge bonus when fighting defensively, what makes halflings the true masters of crane style ;)
Reach defense and Just out of Reach do their part additionaly.

Dodge and mobility are also feats not to be sneezed at, especially when going for a vexing dodger. You want to climb safely on your foes.


Hayato Ken wrote:

Risky Striker comes on top of that^^

The cool thing is it being compatible with piranha strike.

Halflings also have nice other feats, like the one that gives you another +2 dodge bonus when fighting defensively, what makes halflings the true masters of crane style ;)
Reach defense and Just out of Reach do their part additionaly.

Dodge and mobility are also feats not to be sneezed at, especially when going for a vexing dodger. You want to climb safely on your foes.

The big issue for me was aways how do you cram all those feats into one build....

Shadow Lodge

If you're doing the Warpriest dip, I would advise doing the Warpriest level first and using kukris instead. Better threat range. (The reason I say Warpriest first for this is that they get the proficiency, rogues don't.)

Scarab Sages

Kukri's can't be thrown, don't work with river rat or pharasma's +2 to hit, and sneak attack damage isn't increased on a crit. For a rogue, the only reason to take kukris are for flavor, because they are sub-par for them mechanically.


lemeres wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:

-Play an unchained rogue, get weapon finesse and DEX to damage on daggers.

-Be a halfling.
-River Rat Trait for +1 damage.
-Use Two-Weapon Fighting with deific obedience Pharasma.
-Dirty Fighting, Improved dirty Trick and greater dirty trick are great ways to get sneak attack with blinding foes. Vexing dodger archetype gets improved dirty trick as a bonus feat. If you want to multiclass, take 5 levels of unchained barbarian untamed rager archetype, gets greater dirty trick at level 5 and unchained rage works with weapon finesse.
-Deft palm and underhanded rogue tricks work great either with improved initiative and surprising combatant or betrayer feats.

I would recommend the vexing dodger archetype over the knife master.
Knife Master has the d8 on sneak attack, but vexing dodger gives you more opportunity for sneak attack and you get several advantages versus foes larger than you, which are most if you´re a halfling.
With a certain new racial trait you can also hide behind your medium sized party members.

And I thought you were suggesting hafling for risky striker.

Which is a great idea. Cause it gives you power attack like damage bonuses against anything big and beefy, and all at the cost of 1 AC.

The AC penalty for Risky Striker now increases with your BAB so it's not quite as good as it used to be.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Actually that doesn´t need much feats:

-Weapon Finese (free from UC rogue, + DEX to damage at level for 1 weapon)
-Two-Weapon Fighting
-Deific Obedience Pharasma
That´s already it, the rest is optional, even improved and greater TWF.

For the crane style thing i would recommend 1-2 levels of monk. Fighter or brawler might be alternatives.


While Improved Feint is good, in your case Two-Weapon Feint is likely better. Assuming you are going for Two-Weapon Fighting anyway, the requirements are not more difficult, but you lose only one attack. Pretty much the same applies for Greater Feint vs. Improved Two-Weapon Feint.

Further, thanks to Ultimate Magic you can take the Major Magic trick with the Vanish spell.

If that's not enough, use Bluff to create a diversion, allowing you to slip back into stealth. It doesn't cost you any feat, but of course you need a solid Bluff bonus for it.

From my point of view, a rogue has enough tools for sneak attack, but this is just me, as a rogue fanboy...

Silver Crusade

Of course, if you're playing a rogue, the obvious tactic of just buffing your acrobatics through the roof and using that to get into flanking position is the old standby. Obviously, the rest of your party will have to help provide flankers for that to work.

That and really high init bonuses (dex, Reactionary, Improved Init, ioun stone) to catch enemies flat footed for early sneak attacks even before you're in flanking position.

And Two Weapon Fighting, of course. More attacks = more sneak attacks. And it works with thrown daggers against those flat footed foes in the first round of combat.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Vexing dodger gets rid of that need a bit.
As a halfling you can then move through your ally´s square, enter the foes squire and climb him, provided he´s bigger. Since your ally gives you cover, you don´t provoke either, but once you climbed on your foe you do flank.


River Rat has already been suggested, which is decent. however, you can also be a changeling, and take their Hulking Changeling racial trait, which gives a +1 trait bonus to all melee attacks. Sadly, this does not stack with River Rat, but it does free up a trait for something like, I don't know, Reactionary or the like. Add in Hayato's earlier list of necessary feats, and you're in good shape to stab everything in sight!


mourge40k wrote:
River Rat has already been suggested, which is decent. however, you can also be a changeling, and take their Hulking Changeling racial trait, which gives a +1 trait bonus to all melee attacks. Sadly, this does not stack with River Rat, but it does free up a trait for something like, I don't know, Reactionary or the like. Add in Hayato's earlier list of necessary feats, and you're in good shape to stab everything in sight!

They do stack. One is a racial trait, and the other is a race trait.


Gisher wrote:
mourge40k wrote:
River Rat has already been suggested, which is decent. however, you can also be a changeling, and take their Hulking Changeling racial trait, which gives a +1 trait bonus to all melee attacks. Sadly, this does not stack with River Rat, but it does free up a trait for something like, I don't know, Reactionary or the like. Add in Hayato's earlier list of necessary feats, and you're in good shape to stab everything in sight!
They do stack. One is a racial trait, and the other is a race trait.

Gisher is correct.

To be specific, River Rat gives you a Trait Bonus to damage:

"You gain a +1 trait bonus on damage rolls with a dagger and a +1 trait bonus on Swim checks. Swim is always a class skill for you."

Changeling gives you a Racial Bonus to damage, as defined by the option in the Advanced Race Guide for Changelings:

"Hulking Changeling (Annis Hag): The changeling gains a +1 racial bonus on melee damage."

They are specifically defined as being different types of bonus, so they stack.


Gisher wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:

-Play an unchained rogue, get weapon finesse and DEX to damage on daggers.

-Be a halfling.
-River Rat Trait for +1 damage.
-Use Two-Weapon Fighting with deific obedience Pharasma.
-Dirty Fighting, Improved dirty Trick and greater dirty trick are great ways to get sneak attack with blinding foes. Vexing dodger archetype gets improved dirty trick as a bonus feat. If you want to multiclass, take 5 levels of unchained barbarian untamed rager archetype, gets greater dirty trick at level 5 and unchained rage works with weapon finesse.
-Deft palm and underhanded rogue tricks work great either with improved initiative and surprising combatant or betrayer feats.

I would recommend the vexing dodger archetype over the knife master.
Knife Master has the d8 on sneak attack, but vexing dodger gives you more opportunity for sneak attack and you get several advantages versus foes larger than you, which are most if you´re a halfling.
With a certain new racial trait you can also hide behind your medium sized party members.

And I thought you were suggesting hafling for risky striker.

Which is a great idea. Cause it gives you power attack like damage bonuses against anything big and beefy, and all at the cost of 1 AC.

The AC penalty for Risky Striker now increases with your BAB so it's not quite as good as it used to be.

I never noticed that feat, Does it work with power attack looks like it does. I have not played halfling barbarian since 3.5. might be a good mix with invulnerable rager archtype.

Dark Archive

The Swashbuckler advice is great, but missing the most important level 3 Swashbuckler feature:

Menacing Swordplay (Ex): At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, when a swashbuckler hits an opponent with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon, she can choose to use Intimidate to demoralize that opponent as a swift action instead of a standard action.

Combine with Shatter Defenses at BAB 6 and now you can sneak attack all day long on opponents that can be intimidated.

Swashbuckler also multiclasses very well with Rogue or Ninja for Sneak damage. I would recommend eventually carrying Swashbuckler to level 5 for Weapon Training, but level 3 is the most critical piece for Intimidate as a swift action.

Sovereign Court

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Hayato Ken wrote:

Vexing dodger gets rid of that need a bit.

As a halfling you can then move through your ally´s square, enter the foes squire and climb him, provided he´s bigger. Since your ally gives you cover, you don´t provoke either, but once you climbed on your foe you do flank.

This doesn't quite work. While normally allies can provide you with cover, they don't do so while moving through their squares. It's hidden in a different part of the combat chapter:

Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn't provide you with cover.

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