The Neutral Pronoun


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When you're referencing an individual of indeterminate gender (such as someone hypothetical), what do you use?

Personally, I use "they", or "he" when I slip (I'm not perfect). When discussing classes on this forum, I instead default to the gender of the iconic, just like the books do.

I ask this question because I have noticed that sometimes people will refer to hypothetical PCs (such as in arguments over paladins or underpowered/overpowered classes) as male, even when the iconic isn't. I know a lot of it is just habit. Like I said, I do it, too. But I'm curious what people's own rules of thumb are for it.

So if anybody wants to share how thon handles xhe's gender-neutral pronouns, it is welcome to share.

Silver Crusade Contributor

I generally try to use "they" in indeterminate cases.

I don't always do the iconic thing, although I'm aware of it - we've been using that writing style for Aethera. I might try a little harder on that score. ^_^


I agree with Kalindlara, I think "they" has become the de facto go-to for indeterminate gender, even though its intended purpose is plural.

I have seen "one" used occasionally (as in "one must pay attention to learn"), but I don't know if even the British use this commonly anymore without sounding overly hoity-toity.


I find I end up using "s/he" and "they" about equally.


I have vague memories of "ve" and "vey" from elementary school, but I find "they" works well.

Liberty's Edge

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Singular they despite whining from certain sorts of grammarians.

If someone complains, tell them that if it was good enough for Chaucer it's good enough for you.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
So if anybody wants to share how thon handles xhe's gender-neutral pronouns, it is welcome to share.

I like that sentence. Maybe I need to collect all the variations and then rotate through them.

Silver Crusade

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The singular "they" was declared the word of the year by the American Dialect Society.

I think it's here to stay.


Yeah "they" is the way people are going. And lets be honest it rolls off the tongue far better than those made up words.


They them and their. I prefer those to the newer pronouns which really just don't roll off the tongue for me.


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Hey, if Shakespeare used the singular they, who are we to say he was wrong?

Silver Crusade

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Count me in on people who use 'they' as a singular pronoun. If people have more exacting pronouns they want used like ze/zer and other more unconventional ones, I'll attempt to use those, although I'll pretty quickly fall back into they unless noted. I basically use they for everyone I don't personally know, helps avoid the "I'm a male/female" moment I've seen happen in other conversations from assuming another person's gender.


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Redelia wrote:
I refuse to admit that English has changed so much in such a short time.

You're kinda new to English then, aren't you? ;)

Seriously, English has changed immensely just in my lifetime (30 years, for the curious). Word uses, extra definitions, changing definitions, these kinds of changes have been constant. And with singular they seeing such commonplace use in casual conversation, it was seriously only a matter of time before the "experts" just gave up trying to conserve "proper English" not recognizing it as such.

Liberty's Edge

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To be honest, singular they only became a bad thing in the nineteenth century and various manuals of style kept flip flopping on its use throughout the twentieth century.


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In general, I try to avoid sentence construction that uses nonspecific third-person singular pronouns, but when I can't, I use 'they.'

(One trick I use is to name a person and then use pronouns to refer to that individual. e.g. 'If Jane Doe were to do that, then she would...')


More Pathfinder-specifically, why not make a minor rewrite to the class descriptions so that those use 2nd person like the feat and spell descriptions?


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Aranna wrote:
Yeah "they" is the way people are going. And lets be honest it rolls off the tongue far better than those made up words.

All words are made up.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:

More Pathfinder-specifically, why not make a minor rewrite to the class descriptions so that those use 2nd person like the feat and spell descriptions?

Because the class descriptions aren't meant to be gender-neutral. They're meant to match the gender of their associated iconic.


I use they or he if I'm typing too quickly. I had no idea there was a convention to use the iconic's gender. I'd just assumed it was effectively random.

ICE had a book (Nightmares of Mine, maybe?) which recommended using she for the DM and he for a player - the claim being that such a convention would actually help make the text clearer.

Silver Crusade Contributor

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Gisher wrote:
Aranna wrote:
Yeah "they" is the way people are going. And lets be honest it rolls off the tongue far better than those made up words.
All words are made up.

Mind. Blown.


Gisher wrote:
Aranna wrote:
Yeah "they" is the way people are going. And lets be honest it rolls off the tongue far better than those made up words.
All words are made up.

Only partially true.

At some point in history, yes, all words were made up.

But for the purpose of the here and now, some words are established and no longer made up. Where all these made up words people will never stop making either gain wide acceptance and become real words (like cisgendered or crowdfund) or fail to gain much if any acceptance and remain made up (like xhe).

Liberty's Edge

New words with sticking power pretty much only come from synthesis of existing words (crowdfund) or trademark genericization (google). Even then the later case is often the former case.

Or nonsense writers, I suppose. (Carroll, Seuss, etc)


In the past "he" was correct. Modernly "they" is. In DnD entries being written in "her" is common, but nowhere else.


Krensky wrote:

New words with sticking power pretty much only come from synthesis of existing words (crowdfund) or trademark genericization (google). Even then the later case is often the former case.

Or nonsense writers, I suppose. (Carroll, Seuss, etc)

Or slang or science or imports from other languages or ...

Liberty's Edge

thejeff wrote:
Krensky wrote:

New words with sticking power pretty much only come from synthesis of existing words (crowdfund) or trademark genericization (google). Even then the later case is often the former case.

Or nonsense writers, I suppose. (Carroll, Seuss, etc)

Or slang or science or imports from other languages or ...

Loan words aren't new words, and the rest are pretty much covered by what I listed.

Slang and jargon also don't typically generate many new words, it generally adds definitions to existing ones.


Krensky wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Krensky wrote:

New words with sticking power pretty much only come from synthesis of existing words (crowdfund) or trademark genericization (google). Even then the later case is often the former case.

Or nonsense writers, I suppose. (Carroll, Seuss, etc)

Or slang or science or imports from other languages or ...

Loan words aren't new words, and the rest are pretty much covered by what I listed.

Slang and jargon also don't typically generate many new words, it generally adds definitions to existing ones.

I don't think you hang out with college age people much.

Liberty's Edge

Every other week.


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Krensky wrote:
New words with sticking power pretty much only come from synthesis of existing words (crowdfund) or trademark genericization (google). Even then the later case is often the former case.

Actually, there's a lot of psycholinguistics behind which words stick and which don't.

Linguists talk about "closed class" and "open class" words. Open class words are words like nouns, verbs, adjectives, and adverbs, where it's very easy to create new words and have people use them. (Look, I just invented something new, and I call it a "trilmogoran"! Now everyone will use the word "trilmogoran" to describe this, and "trilmogoranish" to describe things like it!)

By contrast, closed-class words are words categories that by their very nature are extremely conservative and robust to change or to expansion in particular. Think of the last time you saw a new preposition, for example. Prepositions -- and pronouns -- are among the classic examples of closed-class words.

Among the other implications, this suggests that trying to create a new gender-neutral pronoun for English is an exercise in futility. Not that that stops people,.... but it does stop me from taking those people at all seriously. Go ahead and use "he" if you like.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Krensky wrote:
New words with sticking power pretty much only come from synthesis of existing words (crowdfund) or trademark genericization (google). Even then the later case is often the former case.

Actually, there's a lot of psycholinguistics behind which words stick and which don't.

Linguists talk about "closed class" and "open class" words. Open class words are words like nouns, verbs, adjectives, and adverbs, where it's very easy to create new words and have people use them. (Look, I just invented something new, and I call it a "trilmogoran"! Now everyone will use the word "trilmogoran" to describe this, and "trilmogoranish" to describe things like it!)

By contrast, closed-class words are words categories that by their very nature are extremely conservative and robust to change or to expansion in particular. Think of the last time you saw a new preposition, for example. Prepositions -- and pronouns -- are among the classic examples of closed-class words.

Among the other implications, this suggests that trying to create a new gender-neutral pronoun for English is an exercise in futility. Not that that stops people,.... but it does stop me from taking those people at all seriously. Go ahead and use "he" if you like.

Though pronouns are more likely to shift usage than for new ones to be adopted. So getting "they" to become the indeterminate singular form is much more likely.


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I just do the best I can


thejeff wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Krensky wrote:
New words with sticking power pretty much only come from synthesis of existing words (crowdfund) or trademark genericization (google). Even then the later case is often the former case.

Actually, there's a lot of psycholinguistics behind which words stick and which don't.

Linguists talk about "closed class" and "open class" words. Open class words are words like nouns, verbs, adjectives, and adverbs, where it's very easy to create new words and have people use them. (Look, I just invented something new, and I call it a "trilmogoran"! Now everyone will use the word "trilmogoran" to describe this, and "trilmogoranish" to describe things like it!)

By contrast, closed-class words are words categories that by their very nature are extremely conservative and robust to change or to expansion in particular. Think of the last time you saw a new preposition, for example. Prepositions -- and pronouns -- are among the classic examples of closed-class words.

Among the other implications, this suggests that trying to create a new gender-neutral pronoun for English is an exercise in futility. Not that that stops people,.... but it does stop me from taking those people at all seriously. Go ahead and use "he" if you like.

Though pronouns are more likely to shift usage than for new ones to be adopted. So getting "they" to become the indeterminate singular form is much more likely.

... which is why singular "they" seems to be winning over "sie" or "xhe."

Liberty's Edge

thejeff wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Krensky wrote:
New words with sticking power pretty much only come from synthesis of existing words (crowdfund) or trademark genericization (google). Even then the later case is often the former case.

Actually, there's a lot of psycholinguistics behind which words stick and which don't.

Linguists talk about "closed class" and "open class" words. Open class words are words like nouns, verbs, adjectives, and adverbs, where it's very easy to create new words and have people use them. (Look, I just invented something new, and I call it a "trilmogoran"! Now everyone will use the word "trilmogoran" to describe this, and "trilmogoranish" to describe things like it!)

By contrast, closed-class words are words categories that by their very nature are extremely conservative and robust to change or to expansion in particular. Think of the last time you saw a new preposition, for example. Prepositions -- and pronouns -- are among the classic examples of closed-class words.

Among the other implications, this suggests that trying to create a new gender-neutral pronoun for English is an exercise in futility. Not that that stops people,.... but it does stop me from taking those people at all seriously. Go ahead and use "he" if you like.

Though pronouns are more likely to shift usage than for new ones to be adopted. So getting "they" to become the indeterminate singular form is much more likely.

As has been mentioned, singular they was common going back to Chaucer. It only became a bad thing during the proscriptive craze of the 19th century.

As a serious answer regarding usage: Figure out what your audience wants. As mentioned, the Pathfinder style manual (or whatever) calls for using pronouns to match the gender of the iconic. So if you're writing for Paizo specifically or, in my opinion, Pathfinder in general you follow that. If your professor specifies a style manual that calls for generic he, you should think hard before using generic she orr singular they or anything else.

Sometimes the statement or fight is worth it, sometimes it isn't.


thejeff wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Krensky wrote:
New words with sticking power pretty much only come from synthesis of existing words (crowdfund) or trademark genericization (google). Even then the later case is often the former case.

Actually, there's a lot of psycholinguistics behind which words stick and which don't.

Linguists talk about "closed class" and "open class" words. Open class words are words like nouns, verbs, adjectives, and adverbs, where it's very easy to create new words and have people use them. (Look, I just invented something new, and I call it a "trilmogoran"! Now everyone will use the word "trilmogoran" to describe this, and "trilmogoranish" to describe things like it!)

By contrast, closed-class words are words categories that by their very nature are extremely conservative and robust to change or to expansion in particular. Think of the last time you saw a new preposition, for example. Prepositions -- and pronouns -- are among the classic examples of closed-class words.

Among the other implications, this suggests that trying to create a new gender-neutral pronoun for English is an exercise in futility. Not that that stops people,.... but it does stop me from taking those people at all seriously. Go ahead and use "he" if you like.

Though pronouns are more likely to shift usage than for new ones to be adopted. So getting "they" to become the indeterminate singular form is much more likely.

Is it really shifting usage when it has been used that way for literally centuries?


Caineach wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Krensky wrote:
New words with sticking power pretty much only come from synthesis of existing words (crowdfund) or trademark genericization (google). Even then the later case is often the former case.

Actually, there's a lot of psycholinguistics behind which words stick and which don't.

Linguists talk about "closed class" and "open class" words. Open class words are words like nouns, verbs, adjectives, and adverbs, where it's very easy to create new words and have people use them. (Look, I just invented something new, and I call it a "trilmogoran"! Now everyone will use the word "trilmogoran" to describe this, and "trilmogoranish" to describe things like it!)

By contrast, closed-class words are words categories that by their very nature are extremely conservative and robust to change or to expansion in particular. Think of the last time you saw a new preposition, for example. Prepositions -- and pronouns -- are among the classic examples of closed-class words.

Among the other implications, this suggests that trying to create a new gender-neutral pronoun for English is an exercise in futility. Not that that stops people,.... but it does stop me from taking those people at all seriously. Go ahead and use "he" if you like.

Though pronouns are more likely to shift usage than for new ones to be adopted. So getting "they" to become the indeterminate singular form is much more likely.
Is it really shifting usage when it has been used that way for literally centuries?

Shifted away, though perhaps not completely?, and seems to be shifting back.


Caineach wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Krensky wrote:
New words with sticking power pretty much only come from synthesis of existing words (crowdfund) or trademark genericization (google). Even then the later case is often the former case.

Actually, there's a lot of psycholinguistics behind which words stick and which don't.

Linguists talk about "closed class" and "open class" words. Open class words are words like nouns, verbs, adjectives, and adverbs, where it's very easy to create new words and have people use them. (Look, I just invented something new, and I call it a "trilmogoran"! Now everyone will use the word "trilmogoran" to describe this, and "trilmogoranish" to describe things like it!)

By contrast, closed-class words are words categories that by their very nature are extremely conservative and robust to change or to expansion in particular. Think of the last time you saw a new preposition, for example. Prepositions -- and pronouns -- are among the classic examples of closed-class words.

Among the other implications, this suggests that trying to create a new gender-neutral pronoun for English is an exercise in futility. Not that that stops people,.... but it does stop me from taking those people at all seriously. Go ahead and use "he" if you like.

Though pronouns are more likely to shift usage than for new ones to be adopted. So getting "they" to become the indeterminate singular form is much more likely.
Is it really shifting usage when it has been used that way for literally centuries?

Yes. Moving from 90%/10% to 10%/90% is definitely a shift.

Senior Editor

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Caineach wrote:
Is it really shifting usage when it has been used that way for literally centuries?

Such shifts sometimes reflect changes in what is perceived as being prestigious or "correct" (which aligns strongly with the language used in media and taught in school) more than changes in what people actually say on the ground.

Contributor

I prefer to use singular 'they' unless I'm specifically told otherwise by a publisher. I do the same in spoken language as well.

If someone I know specifically tells me that they prefer a specific generally unrecognized neologism of the xe/ze/faer/etc variety I'll humor the request in their presence, but it doesn't otherwise show in my writing. Singular they is my go-to in any writing.

Dark Archive

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Lamontius wrote:
I just do the best I can

Your best is not good enough.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

"They" is already and has already been the gender neutral singular third person pronoun.

This is a separate usage from "they" as a specific person's pronoun, which is the contentious usage because of transphobia. Here's a cool thing to keep in mind: a pronoun's primary use is to stand in for a noun. Pronouns can also indicate gender-related aspects of a person, but they do not on their own tell you unequivocally what a person's gender is.

Edit: Oh, and can we stop using any variation of "he or she"? Because that's as verbally awkward as it is transphobic.


If I'm discussing a hypothetical character (like for a game), I use "he" (because I prefer to call 'em "my guy" or "your guy" or "dude" rather than character). Otherwise, mostly "they".

I do say 'e and 'em a lot, but that's just the way I talk. Probably short for "he" and "them".


This week's Slate magazine podcast "Lexicon Valley" was about the singular 'they.' I thought it was pretty interesting!

Link.


Haladir wrote:

This week's Slate magazine podcast "Lexicon Valley" was about the singular 'they.' I thought it was pretty interesting!

Link.

Gah, I do not know if I can sit through this... But I feel like I should Thanks for sharing.

On a related note. Me and a friend are both androgynous/genderfluid and we alternate between using he and she as our preferred pronouns. Neither of us really care for they (though I have gotten used to it) and I don't think either of us would find "he or she" offensive. Using gendered words merely helps with more exotic things like king or mistress and what we use is usually whatever tone fits the context or what his current predominate gender is.

Contributor

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I saw someone refer to their significant other as their "theyfriend" the other day and I thought that was pretty awesome.


mechaPoet wrote:
Oh, and can we stop using any variation of "he or she"? Because that's as verbally awkward as it is transphobic.

Unfortunately, it's also clearer than "they," if one is looking to avoid a potential ambiguity as to whether singular or multiple people are intended. Until a singular neutral pronoun catches on, sometimes "he or she" is a necessary evil, offending 0.3% of the population in order to avoid offending roughly 50% of them.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

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Kirth Gersen wrote:
mechaPoet wrote:
Oh, and can we stop using any variation of "he or she"? Because that's as verbally awkward as it is transphobic.
Unfortunately, it's also clearer than "they," if one is looking to avoid a potential ambiguity as to whether singular or multiple people are intended. Until a singular neutral pronoun catches on, sometimes "he or she" is a necessary evil, offending 0.3% of the population in order to avoid offending roughly 50% of them.

Okay, weird that you're pulling this from over a month ago, but okay.

Salient points:

  • People already use the general singular they in the exact same way that people use "he or she" with no problem.
  • Not everyone's pronoun is either he or she.
  • Where are these statistics coming from, dude? Aside from your estimate about how many people don't use those pronouns, what 50% is offended by other people's pronoun being they?
  • Working from the last point, lol @ offended. Disrespecting and erasing trans and nonbinary people is hardly the same as... what? Asking cis people to be respectful? Asking cis people to consider extending the already common singular they to specific individuals when they request it? Who's getting offended by the singular they that 1) is being actively and significantly harmed by it and 2) isn't a person whose transphobic sensibilities should be challenged?


mechaPoet wrote:


[List]
  • People already use the general singular they in the exact same way that people use "he or she" with no problem.
  • In casual speech, sure. In technical writing? Not so much. Sure, we could go contract-style and define "a singular person of any gender-self-applied-or-none-or-other-or-whatever (hereafter, a PERSON); this terms shall not be applied to more than one PERSON, which groups require separate provisions." and then write stuff like "A PERSON shall not have that PERSON'S property subject to infringement by any other PERSON," but that's way more awkward.

    Silver Crusade RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

    If "he or she" is best and least awkward for technical writing (and I'm not convinced that it is), then guess what? Technical writing excludes trans people. We shouldn't pretend like that exclusion is primarily about apolitical writing standards.


    mechaPoet wrote:


    Salient points:
    People already use the general singular they in the exact same way that people use "he or she" with no problem.

    I don't believe that this is the case. Studies such as (Foertsch and Gernsbacher, 1997) have shown clear differences in both use and acceptability of "he or she" against "they," most particularly in so-called "referential contexts" where there is a clear antecedent of ambiguous gender. For example, "A sailor must keep his or her uniform clean at all times" is much more acceptable (and more common) than "A sailor must keep their uniform clean at all times." This is matched by similar studies on reading speed and comprehension -- the generic "they" is more likely to lead to confusion.

    There is less of an effect in a nonreferential context, where the antecedent is a generic like "somebody" or "everybody."

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