I'm working on a home-brew campaign in which the players are going to be taken to prison prior to beginning their adventure (reasoning varies as to why).
I'm want to allow the players (when they have access to whatever) to increase their ability scores through various activities.
Strength is easy with a strength check against a bench press weight (the way it would work is that you gain a point in strength by achieving a new max weight, DC increases with weight (I haven't calculated out the exact amount yet). If the player has previously done a rep set (repeated lower strength checks (again, not calculated yet) then they can lower the max weight DC by a certain amount (the numbers and rules get more in depth with this to prevent abuse of the system, see below))
After this I'm not sure of what to do.
I was thinking for Constitution it would be running with a DC check based on the forced march rules to stave off taking the nonlethal damage and fatigue for a number of rounds to gain the bonus.
The issue I have here is I can't think of a secondary system to drop the max DC like the rep set does for the strength check (it's necessary to allow those with a +0 or +1 to gain a couple of points (see below for specifics)).
For dexterity I'm not sure. Maybe pullups or something but I don't think that would be a dex check and it has the same issue as the constitution check
For Charisma the only thing I can think of is having positive interactions with people but I don't want it to be a system where you rack up stuff to gain the benefit like the exp system, I want it to be the check similar to the strength check to gain the benefit.
For intelligence it could be reading books but I foresee similar issues to charisma (maybe they can try progressively harder books or something but then this would be a skill check which I don't want). I guess there could be a testing system the prison library offers like in Shawshank Redemption though not a GDP.
And I can't think of anything for wisdom.
I want to avoid skill checks and have it be raw score checks so the players don't have excess bonuses from pumping a single skill and just doing that activity constantly (that doesn't represent the overall score just the specific skill associated with the score).
I would also like to avoid it requiring other people to complete the activity so those less charismatic characters can still get their main scores up (though if having a second character would help in another way that's fine (IE in the strength check, failing means you drop the bar on yourself and must take some damage from it until you can get the bar off (lower check to tip it off) but having a spotter would prevent this))
Any advice on this issue would be appreciated greatly.
Just to clarify the rule system I'm going with is like the strength one.
There will be a maximum DC needed to get the higher score and this will increase as the player wants to go higher (by a certain amount). If the player does some secondary training (like the rep sets for strength) they can lower the DC of the maximum (it's to make things achievable for those with average scores and require near total focus on the score for those with higher scores who want to just pump that score). This will decrease the DC by a certain amount and can only be done once per secondary DC level (IE if the max is 25 and the rep is 10 reps of 10 then they can decrease the 25 once at the DC of 10 and then once at a higher DC (this also has diminishing returns so this can't be abused (finally all exact numbers are to be determined so those aren't what I'm going to use))). I can work with variations on this but this is the overall system I'd like to use.
If you have any questions because I didn't explain something well enough or left something out just ask.
Thank you in advance.
Allow the players to tell you how they will increase the ability score. Don't worry about figuring it out ahead of time. As long as it is reasonable, allow it. If building up ability scores in prison is essentially part of the character creation process, don't require a check they can fail, but do require that higher ability scores take more time to increase. Also, put in a cap of some kind.
Ciaran Barnes wrote: Allow the players to tell you how they will increase the ability score. Don't worry about figuring it out ahead of time. As long as it is reasonable, allow it. If building up ability scores in prison is essentially part of the character creation process, don't require a check they can fail, but do require that higher ability scores take more time to increase. Also, put in a cap of some kind. The cap is meant to come both from their initial ability score allotment and how the players think they should manage their time.
For the latter there will be a number of options for them to do with the time that they would be basically stationary. Because they will be in one place basically and combat won't be as frequent where they are than it would in a standard adventure (especially not balanced combat they can win off the bat) I'm adding other ways to gain exp for the first couple of levels (they can go beyond that but with these methods but they will need to do more to make it worthwhile). They will also need to explore the prison as much as they can (through their prison jobs or stealth, whichever they need) to try and find stuff they can use or ways to escape. If they have multiple stats they want to increase they will have to choose between those. And there will be more of course so the time management aspect will be one restriction factor.
For the former, if they have for example a +5 in strength then with dedicated training they could boost that to +9 but at only +1 they might get it to +2 with training. The same goes for all of the scores. This again goes back to time management and how the player feels they should progress their character given the situation. Should they push strength as high as possible or forgo building the last little bit to increase their lesser scores a little to make them workable?
Finally, I want the failure chance (which would increase as the DC climbs) because if the player comes under time pressure then they will have to decide what to do and how worth it it is.
As an example that I could foresee happening, they have a strength at +6 and a charisma at +2 and have pissed off someone in the prison who has challenged them to a fight in 2 days time. Should they use those two days try to eek a point or two from strength to stand a chance of taking them alone? Should they try their hand at using charisma to convince others to help them out (which would be less likely to work due to a lower charisma score but if it does more it's likely to help them win the fight)? Maybe they should use that time to find someone who can provide them with a weapon? The failure is necessary to keep them thinking about how to get through the situation in the best way possible. Without the failure chance the other two methods are very obviously not worth it because those can fail whereas the training couldn't (unless I extended the training time to reach lengths of days but then that makes that method obviously not worth it because it would be impossible to gain any score in the amount of time they have before the fight).
Wisdom is about willpower and common sense, among other things. Give them things to do focused around this. Let them observe their fellow inmates, see what they're doing, and learn from other people's mistakes. Perhaps they can read through old court cases, point out flaws in what the criminal did, flaws in the prosecution, and so on.
Lathiira wrote: Wisdom is about willpower and common sense, among other things. Give them things to do focused around this. Let them observe their fellow inmates, see what they're doing, and learn from other people's mistakes. Perhaps they can read through old court cases, point out flaws in what the criminal did, flaws in the prosecution, and so on. Observing other inmates for this might be difficult to implement but that could be useful in other aspects of the campaign.
I like the going over old court cases part though. The library could keep files and/or footage of past cases. I think that would work well as the "rep set" (the one that drops the DC of the stat boosting check, I don't know what it would be called) but until I can figure something else out I'm not sure. Either way, thank you for the help.
Now I'm thinking about Rap Battles to increase Charisma.
Wisdom is about listening and learning from the old lifers.
Dexterity, put a basketball hoop in the yard.
This stuff is usually handled through storytelling.
Sense Motive is a WIS-based skill.
Learning to survive in a prison would certainly give one plenty of practice in reading people.
"Take out the toughest guy on your first day in if you don't want people to mess with you." How do you assess who is the toughest guy? Analyze Prowess.
I don't see how you're going to avoid Skill checks, though.
Are you looking at quasi-permanent increases here, or are you looking at methods of stacking on circumstantial bonuses on a relatively small time scale?
<quote> As an example that I could foresee happening, they have a strength at +6 and a charisma at +2 and have pissed off someone in the prison who has challenged them to a fight in 2 days time.</quote>
STR - If goal here is to bulk up short time scales (like two days), then the kind of physical activity needed to build up muscle strength will probably decrease the character's chances to survive the fight to come, rather than increase them.
Bottom line: How are you going to fight effectively when your muscles are already fatigued and worn out from the intense workouts you've been doing? - What's left for the fighting?
It's hard to see how to pull this one in two days time unless you plan on having a character rely on the prison black market, and drug up before the fight.
DEX - This one might be slightly easier to pull off on a short time scale, in that stretches/calisthenics are much lower impact than trying to 'bulk up' - Hard to see this as much more than a circumstance bonus to opposed checks, though, for so short a time frame.
CON - Sort of with strength on this one. Black market drugs/get sweet with the prison nurse. (On short time scale). In the long time scale, everyone who survives the prison food is probably having the same advantage.
INT - Six..., no five P's. (Proper Planning Prevents ... Poor Performance). - I could see how boning up on a subject would give you a circumstance bonus to checks related to the subject. - Hard to see this as a permanent thing without continued study.
WIS - Thinking something on the lines of relaxation techniques/medication techniques, etc. Stressed out people don't notice things anywhere near as well as people who aren't completely stressed out. - If the character can somehow displace themselves (for a short time) from the reality of prison, there's a good chance that this would translate to better awareness, even on a short time scale.
CHA - Bribery? Donate all of your cigarettes to neutral to mildly helpful parties to increase their attitude? - Hard to see how to permanent increase this one, as it tends to be regarded as 'force of personality'. - There's a very good chance that having a too large of an ego to bother caring for others landed the character in prison in the first place. (Given that in most systems, charisma is more of force of personality measurement than an appearance/manners one)
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On the longer time scale, though, I am with Ciaran on having the player figuring out how they intend to deal with this. - However, I probably wouldn't allow the bonus to be considered permanent unless the character spent a reasonable amount of time to maintain the edge.
IE, you do hard work-outs for six months straight to get an edge in strength. That character had better be able to keep up the work-out routine (in a reduced fashion) in order to maintain the edge. If the character gets thrown into solitary confinement shortly after, there is a good chance that a lot of that bulk would go in time, depending on how long he has to go before being allowed access to the exercise equipment again.
Ditto for Intelligence requiring continued study, Wisdom requiring continued focus/meditation/relaxationsion training, Con requiring continued eating of crappy prison food, etc.
I've heard that regular exercise, gradually increased, makes you less fatigued. That's how it works with my walking and lifting things at work. I carry some canvas bags with my metal bottle(for iced coffee) and other things in them. by carrying them every day I have gradually increased my arm strength.
Suggestion:
Ability Training
Choose the ability score you wish to increase. The amount of time you need to spend on training that score equals the current score divided by 2 in days [or weeks, depending on how much time they have in the prison]. At the end of the training period, you roll 1d20 with no modifiers (unless you have a trainer, see below) with a DC equal to your current ability score +3. If you succeed, you gain a +1 inherent bonus to that ability. This can't raise a score above 18 unless that score also has a racial bonus, in which case the max is 20 (or 22 for a +4 bonus). [Note: inherent bonuses cap at +5]
Another can attempt to give an aid bonus (+2) by succeeding at an ability check or an appropriate profession check with the same DC. The trainer needs to spend all of the training time with the trainee but can simultaneously aid a number of trainees equal to their modifier in that ability (min 1) or their ranks in profession.
Goth Guru wrote: Now I'm thinking about Rap Battles to increase Charisma. I have a plan in regards to interacting with prisoners like this, namely in that I'll be making a specialized variant of the Leadership feat which will work in a prison setting (Gang Leader or something, I'll be working out the specifics soon) which will require one to influence the prisoners around them using Charisma in various ways.
Plus my main concern with having the skill require people to increase the score is that if people are not around for some reason or don't want to deal with the individual it makes it more difficult or impossible to gain. Then again I guess this is impossible to avoid when the stat is literally about interacting with others...
Goth Guru wrote: Wisdom is about listening and learning from the old lifers. Same issue as above but I am considering adding a mentor type of system which could further decrease the DC of the checks but I'll have to see how well that implements.
Goth Guru wrote: Dexterity, put a basketball hoop in the yard. Would that be a dex check? Honestly, I would consider that an attack roll against the hoop with the ball being a thrown weapon.
Goth Guru wrote: This stuff is usually handled through storytelling. Otherwhere wrote: Sense Motive is a WIS-based skill.
Learning to survive in a prison would certainly give one plenty of practice in reading people.
"Take out the toughest guy on your first day in if you don't want people to mess with you." How do you assess who is the toughest guy? Analyze Prowess.
Right, but I'm trying to avoid doing this through a skill check. The main reason is because I don't want someone to be able to pump a skill and gain a stat from that. The way I see it is that the stat controls the skills, the skills don't control the stat. Being good in one area is what gets someone the ability in that area which I see as representative of their increased ability at preforming the task (I am also considering a similar system with specific skill checks). The stat increase that would be gained from doing the skill (let's say strength from climbing) would also be represented by the increase to the skill itself since there is a level of muscle memory and specific muscles being targeted through the task.
OS_Dirk wrote: Are you looking at quasi-permanent increases here, or are you looking at methods of stacking on circumstantial bonuses on a relatively small time scale? Permanent, like a level-up bonus.
I want the characters to be stronger than the average character of their level so they have a change at going against antaginists in the prison population and more importantly against the prison guards (who will be much better armed, higher level, etc.) and escape from the prison. \
OS_Dirk wrote: STR - If goal here is to bulk up short time scales (like two days), then the kind of physical activity needed to build up muscle strength will probably decrease the character's chances to survive the fight to come, rather than increase them.
Bottom line: How are you going to fight effectively when your muscles are already fatigued and worn out from the intense workouts you've been doing? - What's left for the fighting?
However, I probably wouldn't allow the bonus to be considered permanent unless the character spent a reasonable amount of time to maintain the edge.
IE, you do hard work-outs for six months straight to get an edge in strength. That character had better be able to keep up the work-out routine (in a reduced fashion) in order to maintain the edge. If the character gets thrown into solitary confinement shortly after, there is a good chance that a lot of that bulk would go in time, depending on how long he has to go before being allowed access to the exercise equipment again.
While I'm looking for a certain level of accuracy, I'm not going that accurate. Like Pathfinder removing facing rules to simplify things, I'm trying to have something that it mechanically sound without it being ridiculously complex such as requiring a daily routine or something like that.
OS_Dirk wrote: It's hard to see how to pull this one in two days time unless you plan on having a character rely on the prison black market, and drug up before the fight. That would be a temporary bonus with consequences.
OS_Dirk wrote: DEX - This one might be slightly easier to pull off on a short time scale, in that stretches/calisthenics are much lower impact than trying to 'bulk up' - Hard to see this as much more than a circumstance bonus to opposed checks, though, for so short a time frame. This would work as the dex rep-like workout actually.
OS_Dirk wrote: CON - Sort of with strength on this one. Black market drugs/get sweet with the prison nurse. (On short time scale). In the long time scale, everyone who survives the prison food is probably having the same advantage. Same as the strength drugs, temporary bonus with consequences for use.
OS_Dirk wrote: INT - Six..., no five P's. (Proper Planning Prevents ... Poor Performance). - I could see how boning up on a subject would give you a circumstance bonus to checks related to the subject. - Hard to see this as a permanent thing without continued study. The permanent bonus will come in after a test is taken. The DC check, if passed will indicate that the character has learned enough to be considered knowledgeable on in a general sense. If I add the skill check variant of this (which is likely) then the subject of the test will be specific to the check (so architecture for dungeneering or something), otherwise it will be general and unspecified. If failed they will have failed the test and wasted their time.
They decrease the DC check of the test by taking time to study and rolling that DC check to try and retain that information.
OS_Dirk wrote: WIS - Thinking something on the lines of relaxation techniques/medication techniques, etc. Stressed out people don't notice things anywhere near as well as people who aren't completely stressed out. - If the character can somehow displace themselves (for a short time) from the reality of prison, there's a good chance that this would translate to better awareness, even on a short time scale. That might work as a rep-like check as well though I want to avoid it being doable at all times only because many of these can't be done at all times and it eliminates the time-management portion I'm looking for.
OS_Dirk wrote: CHA - Bribery? Donate all of your cigarettes to neutral to mildly helpful parties to increase their attitude? - Hard to see how to permanent increase this one, as it tends to be regarded as 'force of personality'. - There's a very good chance that having a too large of an ego to bother caring for others landed the character in prison in the first place. (Given that in most systems, charisma is more of force of personality measurement than an appearance/manners one) This is the hang up one that is making me reconsider the standard set-up I'd like to have.
Goth Guru wrote: I've heard that regular exercise, gradually increased, makes you less fatigued. That's how it works with my walking and lifting things at work. I carry some canvas bags with my metal bottle(for iced coffee) and other things in them. by carrying them every day I have gradually increased my arm strength. Same as above, I'm looking to avoid too much complexity like requiring routines to be implemented and such.
Scud422 wrote:
Suggestion:
Ability Training
Choose the ability score you wish to increase. The amount of time you need to spend on training that score equals the current score divided by 2 in days [or weeks, depending on how much time they have in the prison]. At the end of the training period, you roll 1d20 with no modifiers (unless you have a trainer, see below) with a DC equal to your current ability score +3. If you succeed, you gain a +1 inherent bonus to that ability. This can't raise a score above 18 unless that score also has a racial bonus, in which case the max is 20 (or 22 for a +4 bonus). [Note: inherent bonuses cap at +5]
Another can attempt to give an aid bonus (+2) by succeeding at an ability check or an appropriate profession check with the same DC. The trainer needs to spend all of the training time with the trainee but can simultaneously aid a number of trainees equal to their modifier in that ability (min 1) or their ranks in profession.
Interesting. This could help making the final product with a few tweaks.
Michael Grate wrote:
And I can't think of anything for wisdom.
Yoga, introspection, philosophy books, laws of life, finding a god to worship and so on.
For charisma perhaps a list of achievements for npcs to make them follow you. once you have X follower you add 1 point, and every (double previous number) you get another one and so on.
For inteligence: beat another pcs, and npcs in puzzles, chess, and after some wins you add 1 bonus.
think in the bonus as something groupal, not something individual to rol with your players, i mean, dont send them alone to rol that they are making pushups or something, maybe tests of might from mortal kombat, facing another gang inside the prision would grant some good choices, flavor, and such.
good luck
I like the idea of having the PCs come up with the activities themselves, buy you could also have NPCs available that have some ranks in Profesion to help train the PCs in exchange for favors/bribes/really good diplomacy or intimidate checks.
Options: Profession: Boxing, Basketball, or other sports; could be used to train up Str, Dex or Con.
Profession: Teacher; for Int, maybe also Wis.
P: Games (chess, cards, etc.) for Wis.
P: Public speaking, Acting, Debate, or Singing for Cha.
The call of cuthulu games had systems for improving oneself during downtime....especially the 1920's version with steaming across the ocean for weeks at a time....
In solitary, they could shadow box, use dynamic tension, muscles pulling against muscles.
If 2 prisoners arm wrestle, box, and otherwise compete all the time, they both get stronger, and may try to escape together.
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