I'm giving instant hate for this build because I find Weapon Finesse completely unnecessary to make a good Kensai, and you are losing way too many levels just to get that going.
Honestly, DEX to damage is something like +2 to damage at most, at the expense of CMD, and only obtaining a handful of points to AC (and not even as many as you may think).
That being said, if you want to be a casting Rogue, go with the Eldritch Scoundrel from the newest book.
You lose CMD because you need STR AND DEX as a 3/4 class to have a relevant defense. Rogues can use Escape Artist to avoid one type of maneuver but remain weak against the rest. Swashbucklers have several immunities so they are fine in that respect.
Honestly, the Kensai having STR+DEX+INT to CMD is what makes it able to withstand the grappling, tripping and disarming that could otherwise be detrimental.
3-4 AC is not 15-20% by the way. It's much less on the higher or lower ends!
Anyway, do note that the majority of AC for a Kensai comes from spells (which you are sadly giving up with the Rogue dip), such as Shield and Mage Armor (which you can pick up with an Arcana).
A straight STR Kensai can forget about spending feats on the likes of Weapon Finesse and such and instead get Crane Style feats for a fat handful of AC.
That is not to say a DEX Kensai won't well enough - it would! But it would even be better to go STR/DEX.
Here's quick comparison:
Male Human magus 4 Archetypes Kensai,
None Medium humanoid (human)
Init +4, Senses Perception +1
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DEFENSE
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AC 19, touch 18, flat-footed 11 (+1 armor, +4 Dex, +4 dodge, )
hp 31 ((4d8)+8)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +4
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OFFENSE
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee elven curve blade +8 (1d10+3/18-20)
Special Attacks Spell Combat, Spellstrike,
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TACTICS
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STATISTICS
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Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 7,
Base Atk +3; CMB +5; CMD 23
Feats Toughness, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Curve Blade (Elven))
Skills
Traits Bladed Magic, Seeker,
Languages Common
SQ arcane pool (7/day), bonus magus arcane pool (4x), canny defense, cantrips, diminished spellcasting, dual talent, kensai chosen weapon (curve blade (elven)), kensai weapon proficiency (curve blade (elven)), magus arcana, perfect strike, spell blending, weapon and armor proficiency, weapon focus, , , ,
Combat Gear
Other Gear elven curve blade, haramaki, darkwood buckler, magus spellbook, 214.0 gp
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Arcane Pool (Su) You have a reservoir of mystical arcane energy that you draw upon to fuel your powers and enhance your weapon. This arcane pool has 7 points. The pool refreshes once per day when you prepare your spells. You can expend 1 point from your arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon you are holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.
Bladed Magic You have an innate talent for using magical weaponry and those weapons capable of becoming magical. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Craft checks made to craft magic or masterwork weapons. In addition, when you use your arcane pool class ability to grant a weapon an enhancement bonus, that bonus lasts for 2 minutes instead of 1.
Bonus Magus Arcane Pool (4x) Add +1/4 point to the magus' arcane pool.
Canny Defense (Ex) At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name (Core Rulebook 382), save that his chosen weapon may be of any type. [AC Bonus +4 / Actual AC Bonus +4]
Cantrips You can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day. These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again.
Diminished Spellcasting A kensai may cast one fewer spell of each level than normal. If this reduces the number to 0, he may cast spells of that level only if his Intelligence allows bonus spells of that level.
Dual Talent Some humans are uniquely skilled at maximizing their natural gifts. These humans pick two ability scores and gain a +2 racial bonus in each of those scores. This racial trait replaces the +2 bonus to any one ability score, the bonus feat, and the skilled traits.
Kensai Chosen Weapon (Curve Blade (Elven)) This is the Kensai's Chosen Weapon.
Kensai Weapon Proficiency (Curve Blade (Elven)) Kensai additional weapon proficiency selection.
Magus Arcana The following magus arcana complement the kensai archetype - concentrate*, critical strike*, deadly follow-up, precise prowess, prescient attack, prescient defense, spell shield*.
Magus Arcana As he gains levels, a magus learns arcane secrets tailored to his specific way of blending martial puissance and magical skill. Starting at 3rd level, a magus gains one magus arcana. He gains an additional magus arcana for every three levels of magus attained after 3rd level. Unless specifically noted in a magus arcana's description, a magus cannot select a particular magus arcana more than once. Magus arcana that affect spells can only be used to modify spells from the magus spell list unless otherwise noted.
Perfect Strike (Ex) At 4th level, when a kensai hits with his chosen weapon, he can spend 1 point from his arcane pool in order to maximize his weapon damage. Don't roll for damage-the weapon deals maximum damage. This affects only the weapon's base damage dice, not additional damage from sneak attack, magical weapon properties, spellstrike, or critical hits. If the kensai confirms a critical hit, he can instead spend 2 points from his arcane pool to increase his weapon's critical multiplier by 1. This ability replaces spell recall.
Seeker You are always on the lookout for reward and danger. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Perception checks, and Perception is always a class skill for you.
Spell Blending (Ex) You select one spell from the wizard spell list that is of a magus spell level you can cast. You add this spell to your spellbook and list of magus spells known as a magus spell of its wizard spell level. You can instead select two spells to add in this way, but both must be at least one level lower than the highest-level magus spell you can cast. You can select this magus arcana more than once.
Spell Combat (Ex) You can cast spells and wield your weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the offhand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, you must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, you can make all of your attacks with your melee weapon at a -2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If you cast this spell defensively, you can decide to take an additional penalty on your attack rolls, up to your Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on your concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. You can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if you have more than one attack, you cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.
Spellstrike (Ex) Whenever you cast a spell with a range of "touch" from the magus spell list, you can deliver the spell through any weapon you are wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If you make this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19-20, or 18-20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals x2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency A kensai is proficient in simple weapons and in a single martial or exotic melee weapon of his choice. A kensai is not proficient with armor or shields and suffers normal arcane spell failure chance when casting magus spells while armored.
Weapon Focus (Ex) At 1st level, a kensai gains Weapon Focus with his chosen weapon as a bonus feat.
Weapon Focus (Curve Blade (Elven))
A DEX build would likely get +2 damage when using 1H, literally the same AC, -2 CMD.
Sure, the DEX build only wants +DEX/CON belts, that's a definite advantage, but the STR/DEX build will outpace the DEX build when out of spells (since you 2H for much more damage, especially when you get Power Attack) and getting +STR/DEX/CON belts will maintain the CMD superiority.
And really no AC difference will truly show unless you go bonkers.
(Note that both builds would like use Shield + Mage Armor for +8 AC, effectively having 25 AC at level 4, eventually stopping to do so once shield/armor enhancements are high enough).
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I'd like to say Magi are by far my favorite Arcane class. The action economy and flexibility are awesome. I have found AC really isnt that important after mirror image. You can build an awesome layered defense with mirror image, displacement, and stoneskin. I personally wouldn't take kensai because it gives up Spell Recall. I find that ability to recall spells imperative. If you go kensai do a strength build with a falcata and then your crit will hit x 4 damage.
My build: loses a "spell level" of spells, and less of all the lower levels, plus access to other kensai abilities 4 levels later.
Your build: loses evasion, +2 damage 1H/+4 damage 2H, uncanny dodge, 2d6 sneak attack damage, debilitating injury (+4 to attacks if your first sneak attack of the round hits).
Now that's just unfair -- I posted a level 4 build and you are comparing it with a level 8 build :P
Why not add to the things you lose:
Iaijitsu (+4-5 initiative)
Fighter Training progression
3 points of the Arcane pool (2 from levels, 1 from lost favored class bonuses)
1 Magus Arcana
2 3rd level spells per day
3 2nd level spells per day
4 caster levels, which matter a lot for concentration
Honestly, if you wanna do the above build, do go ahead. But don't kid yourself - an 8 level Rogue and an 8 level Magus will be miles, miles ahead of you.
I know you didn't want flaming or anything, but there really isn't much to gain. The Rogue misses sneak attack progression and goes further and further away from Debilitating Injury, and the Magus loses his lifeblood - spells and arcane pool points.
This is not to say you shouldn't do what you want to do. But it's far from the realms of optimal builds.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I would recommend sticking to just one level of rogue, and using the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat. Frankly, getting third level spells at level 8 is just more effective than a rogue trick or two, both in terms of combat and utility magic.
Dex to damage is available from either another feat, or an agile weapon, or just ignore it because a Magus can boost damage with a variety of spells. As you say "The bread and butter is flexibility with Magus spell combat" so you shouldn't be attacking two-handed much, if ever.
I would also not recommend kensai unless most of your campaign is going to be level 10 and above. At levels lower than that, everything the kensai gives you can be duplicated with feats, and its diminished spellcasting just hurts.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Up to about level 7-8, I'd agree that straight Magus is strictly better, but early levels, you're mainly relying on your rogue abilities (sneak attack and dex to damage).
Dex to damage is not a rogue ability; the Magus can get dex to damage just fine.
Point is, a one-level dip in rogue is fine. A four-level dip doesn't really add all that much. Yes, the rogue adds to your damage, but so do your spells... but you lose spells once for dipping, and once more for going kensai. That's a lot of spell slots you could have used to boost your damage!
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Dex to damage is not a rogue ability; the Magus can get dex to damage just fine.Dex to damage is an unchained rogue ability.
A magus can just grab Dervish Dance, Fencing Grace, or Slashing Grace. The big advantage of Urogue's dex-to-damage is being able to either get 1.5x Dex with a two-handed weapon or get it with TWF. A magus can't use either of those with Spell Combat anyway.
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Agreed. This is more of a switch-hitter build. For opening rounds of combat/rounds where they have to move and attack, this build can use Spell Strike and a Two-Handed weapon.
Or cast Bladed Dash.
This build, however, has better options against things with DR, and can do one massive hit in the opening round.
I'm also not sure why you think the Magus has problems with DR in the first place (e.g. the Bladebound can bypass every material-based DR by level 5 automatically), or what's stopping him from doing "one massive hit" by casting a touch spell.
Perhaps you should consider variant multiclassing? Because your character feels more like a pure rogue with a minor Magus dip to effectively get two weapon fighting (via spell combat) for free.
You lose CMD because you need STR AND DEX as a 3/4 class to have a relevant defense.
This build will have 3 stats to CMD: Str/Dex/Int
My preference is for 2-3 levels of Shadowdancer. Uncanny Dodge gets rid of the kensai's biggest vulnerability and evasion is nice when reflex is already your highest save. Three levels if you want to access rogue talents at higher level.
You lose CMD because you need STR AND DEX as a 3/4 class to have a relevant defense.This build will have 3 stats to CMD: Str/Dex/Int
My preference is for 2-3 levels of Shadowdancer. Uncanny Dodge gets rid of the kensai's biggest vulnerability and evasion is nice when reflex is already your highest save. Three levels if you want to access rogue talents at higher level.
I have much different read on the class than you - to me, the biggest vulnerability of the Kensai is low spells.
Flat-footedness is not an issue - you have Iaijitsu and, if ambushes are a constant fixture of your games, you have Heightened Awareness.
Evasion is nice but I'd rather just buy or create a Ring of Evasion.
You lose CMD because you need STR AND DEX as a 3/4 class to have a relevant defense.This build will have 3 stats to CMD: Str/Dex/Int
My preference is for 2-3 levels of Shadowdancer. Uncanny Dodge gets rid of the kensai's biggest vulnerability and evasion is nice when reflex is already your highest save. Three levels if you want to access rogue talents at higher level.
I have much different read on the class than you - to me, the biggest vulnerability of the Kensai is low spells.
Flat-footedness is not an issue - you have Iaijitsu and, if ambushes are a constant fixture of your games, you have Heightened Awareness.
Evasion is nice but I'd rather just buy or create a Ring of Evasion.
- Iaijitsu does not negate surprise until 19th level and, being on point as the highest AC character in the group, surprise can kill.
- Resource management & Pearls of Power mitigate reduced spells/level. A well built kensai can sustain performance on an extended adventuring day.
- A Ring of Evasion is 25,000 gold. You won't afford that until high level, and only at significant opportunity cost until very high level.
- The competence bonus from Heightened Awareness does not stack with Eyes of the Eagle, or similar items.
I'm not theorycrafting here. Bladebound Kensai is my most played build for the past few years and I've tried several variations in a variety of settings.
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Just going to ask.
What is wrong with Dervish Dance and using a scimitar and have Dex to damage by level 3 as a Magus? Seems far better to not lose Caster Levels. Or you can always go Fencing Grace Level 1 with a HUMAN magus or Level 3 on a elf.
Rogue is basically giving you Dex to attack and damage for free, as well as evasion and a +4 to hit after your first hit with sneak attack in the round. In addition, it's netting you a feat, as you get two rogue talents, but probably have to spend one of them on Combat Casting (at least early on). The 2d6 extra damage is nothing to scoff at either.
It accomplishes your First requirement.
And Sneak attack IS something to Scoff at all day...every day...twice on sunday. Your 2d6 SA is Precision damage and Criticals do nothing for it. It is shut down by a lot more means than the +4d6 you will get from Shocking grasp which CAN multiply on the critical hit.
Also in PF it is considered TERRIBLE to take a 3/4 BaB class and dip into another 3/4 BaB class Especially when one of the classes is named Rogue. Your taking too many steps back. The +4 after SA lands....AFTER...if you don't hit your doing 0 damage.
No your better off going PURE magus. Nothing you have mentioned as "Bonuses" and "reasons" for dip is really gained from the rogue levels that can not be gotten from a well built magus.
Just going to ask.
No your better off going PURE magus. Nothing you have mentioned as "Bonuses" and "reasons" for dip is really gained from the rogue levels that can not be gotten from a well built magus.
Pure magus is usually your best bet, unless you are building for a specific purpose.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Uncanny Dodge gets rid of the kensai's biggest vulnerability
If getting flatfooted bothers you, the obvious counter is to wear actual armor and not play a kensai.
Unless you want the flavor of being unarmored (in which case you could always use Mage Armor), wearing armor is simply more effective than getting int to armor class. Kensai is really all about the high-level critical feats, but in your build you won't be getting those until level 13 or so.
Resource management & Pearls of Power mitigate reduced spells/level.
Having one pearl each for spell levels 1 through 4 is actually more expensive than a ring of evasion...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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If you want a Magus who can Sneak Attack, you should take a long look at the Greensting Slayer Archetype.
Or rather, don't. It's one of the weakest and worst-written archetypes in the book. Basically, three or four times per day, it lets you add a small amount of damage dice to one attack, and you have to declare it in advance and it is wasted if you miss. Oh, and you give up the excellent and iconic weapon enchantment ability for the "privilege".
That's really as bad as it gets in archetypes; dipping into rogue or ninja or snakebite brawler is ever so much better.
It has been mentioned a little bit, but to reiterate: Eldritch Scoundrel from Arcane Anthologies is a Rogue archetype with Magus casting and half sneak attack.
You don't get the powerful Spell Combat or Spell strike, but you are great at being a stealthy spell rogue.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Maybe, but if OP wants to play a Magus who can Sneak Attack, he should look at the Magus who can Sneak Attack!
Precisely. And the effective way to do that is either to dip into Rogue for one level, or to cast Sense Vitals.
My question is why so many people are so infatuated with Sneak Attack.
It's ok....but it is not the optimal damage choices out there. Magus brings to the table better damage options. They bring damage options that ARE multiplied on a critical hit.
Also true. I did some math on a sneak attacking caster using Scorching Rays, and found out that it's just weaker than other options.
I've been working on a build just like that! dipping into rogue or ninja or snakebite brawler
That sounds very good, especially with the new Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat. Instead of monk, you could also consider Magus for its access to the polymorph line of spells.
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The progression is pretty good: +1d6 every other level, most times. 1d6 averages out to 3.5hp, so that is 1.75hp/level, and I don't think that's bad at all. That's better than a lot of damage progressions.
But prove me wrong. Show me a better way.
Only argue I could have is:
Every time Vs Most the time.Precision damage does do exactly as you say average of 3.5 damage per SA dice added. But it is not every time. That is the main thing that turns me off as a player. I like consistency I can depend on to work. The magus can change plans...Oh he is immune to shock...but not Frost... frost bite....crap this enemy is immune to all Elemental damage...Vampiric touch. Or even to simplify:
2HF vs TWF UnRogue
The fighter moves and Hits with his Falchion for 2d4+9 (Power attack and then the Rogue goes...He moves to flank with the fighter and get in a Shortsword 1d6+1 str + 3.5 SA for roughly 9 average damage. This is a typical turn as full attacks hardly ever happen before the thing moves or Dies.
But what if it was a small elemental they were fighting or the rogue is not getting Flanking or SA condition is not met?
Fighter is still at 2d4+9 while the rogue is sitting at 4 average damage. At later levels tho it becomes much worst of a gap when SA is just shut offline by the least optimal conditions.
I guess every 4 levels Power attack goes up by +3 damage...it is just unconditional damage.
I guess its a personal thing for me. IDK man.
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The bread and butter is flexibility with Magus spell combat/spell strike. You can open either by casting, moving and swinging 2H with spell strike, or, at 7th/8th level, using bladed dash for a pounce-like sneak attack with spell combat. High critical range means that Kensai can turn his 2x critical into a 3x critical a high percentage of the time, which is devastating with a 2H attack.
It's not clear to me how the character can make a 2-hd attack using spell combat.
Page 10: Ultimate Magic
Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.
It does look like the magus could use spell strike, but then he is doing one round to cast the spell and the next round to do the attack.
Well, he did say spellstrike and not spell combat, so there's that. As for how it happens, the key is in the rules for casting a spell that requires a touch:
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
So basically, you cast a touch range spell and designate your melee weapon as the "touch" method, as per spellstrike. Then you take your move to get into melee range and make the attack allowed by the spell.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Really? Share some of your other options, please. The build I posted to will, at level 4, be able to use a Wand of Scorching Ray while Invisible several times/combat, each time inflicting 6d6 damage as a Ranged Touch Attack vs. Flatfooted AC with no Saving Throw.
Ok, but you're going to spend half your turns on casting Vanish, and the other half on doing a Scorching Ray, meaning your damage per round is really 3d6.
The issue I ran into with sneak attacking with spells is that sneak attack increases by 1d6 per two levels, whereas spell damage increases by 1d6 per each level. So if your aim is damage, more levels in a caster class is always going to trump rogue levels. Sneak attack does work well on anything with multiple attacks though, e.g. a tengu ninja at level 4 could do three attacks for 1d3+2d6+str each, and can go invisible as a swift.
By the way, greensting doesn't stack with eldritch archer, since they both modify your arcane pool ability.
Spell dancer magus and rogue. Spell dancer gets insight bonus to light armor as they progress which couples well with rogue.
Spell dancer magus and rogue. Spell dancer gets insight bonus to light armor as they progress which couples well with rogue.
Hi Faunriel, welcome to the forums.
Just a quick tip, at the top right of every post there is a date. In this case the last post in this thread was in 2016. While it can be useful to reopen an old thread to continue a topic, it's unlikely that the person who started the thread will see your post.
Often when someone reopens a thread like this it's referred to as "Thread Necromancy" (Expect to see a few comically named people post after this).
Spell dancer magus and rogue. Spell dancer gets insight bonus to light armor as they progress which couples well with rogue.Hi Faunriel, welcome to the forums.
Just a quick tip, at the top right of every post there is a date. In this case the last post in this thread was in 2016. While it can be useful to reopen an old thread to continue a topic, it's unlikely that the person who started the thread will see your post.
Often when someone reopens a thread like this it's referred to as "Thread Necromancy" (Expect to see a few comically named people post after this).
You called?