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I find it odd that you would get so wound up over an existing (and accepted) definition of something.
Does anyone else find this commonly used word offensive?
I'm talking about "Warlock".
Well, my wife practices Wicca and I can tell you from personal experience that most people in her community have at least some issue with the word. For many, it's merely annoying; for some, they react like you dropped the "N-bomb". I don't use the term anymore because: a.) it's not a term that comes up very often and b.) it annoyed my wife and her friends. Does that mean you should stop using it? That's really up to you to decide.
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Well, my wife practices Wicca and I can tell you from personal experience that most people in her community have at least some issue with the word. For many, it's merely annoying; for some, they react like you dropped the "N-bomb". I don't use the term anymore because: a.) it's not a term that comes up very often and b.) it annoyed my wife and her friends. Does that mean you should stop using it? That's really up to you to decide.I find it odd that you would get so wound up over an existing (and accepted) definition of something.
Does anyone else find this commonly used word offensive?
I'm talking about "Warlock".
Huh.
I didn't realize some people found it offensive. To those who do, I sincerely apologize, and will try to be more aware of this in the future.
In the context of the game, I will likely continue to use it as I have, with no offence intended (my group is ignorant of the insulting connotations mentioned here-I will mention it to them though).
Happy gaming!
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Well, my wife practices Wicca and I can tell you from personal experience that most people in her community have at least some issue with the word. For many, it's merely annoying; for some, they react like you dropped the "N-bomb". I don't use the term anymore because: a.) it's not a term that comes up very often and b.) it annoyed my wife and her friends. Does that mean you should stop using it? That's really up to you to decide.I find it odd that you would get so wound up over an existing (and accepted) definition of something.
Does anyone else find this commonly used word offensive?
I'm talking about "Warlock".
Huh.
I didn't realize some people found it offensive. To those who do, I sincerely apologize, and will try to be more aware of this in the future.
In the context of the game, I will likely continue to use it as I have, with no offence intended (my group is ignorant of the insulting connotations mentioned here-I will mention it to them though).
Happy gaming!
While I wish that you would not, I feel that pushing the point further is threatening to cross the jerk threshold.
Happy gaming!
Well, my wife practices Wicca and I can tell you from personal experience that most people in her community have at least some issue with the word.I find it odd that you would get so wound up over an existing (and accepted) definition of something.
Does anyone else find this commonly used word offensive?
I'm talking about "Warlock".
I can also attest that this issue fairly widespread; I know a number of practicing "witches" in communities across the USA who use the word "warlock" as a gender-neutral term in its original meaning of "oathbreaker." To call someone a "warlock" is a huge insult, specifically, to his probity and honesty.
My question is, why is it so important to come up with an alternate term that lets other players know that your fictional character is DEFINITELY NOT A WOMAN? I don't see this debate happening for any other class, or an insistence that there needs to be differentiated male and female terms for Cavalier, Rogue, Gunslinger, etc...
If you are playing a male Witch, you start the game by saying "my character is a Witch." If you really feel the need, you start the game by saying "my character is a male witch." If it's really important to you, the first time another player refers to your character as "her," you politely correct them.
I was in a scenario where a player thought it would be fun to give their character a name that was about a mile long, and somewhere in the middle of it was "Francine," after his mother. The char just went by Francine, and it took about halfway through the scenario for every player at the table to fully realize that the raging barbarian tanking for us was a male. But it wasn't malicious on our part, just an unconscious case of gender bias, and Francine's player was never offended, as he had named Francine the male Barbarian all in the spirit of creating an interesting and fun character.
Hopefully if you want to play a male Witch, it is because you think the character will be fun and interesting to play, and, hopefully, others at the table will join in that spirit of fun. We are playing a game after all. And if for some reason another player can't get into that spirit, or insists that your male Witch should be called something else, then in the end that's really their problem, not yours.
We should also keep in mind that characters may not refer to themselves using game terms like we do.
Frank the Fighter might call himself Francis the Bold, Warrior of the Seven Kingdoms!
We should also keep in mind that characters may not refer to themselves using game terms like we do.
Frank the Fighter might call himself Francis the Bold, Warrior of the Seven Kingdoms!
Absolutely! I was mostly referring to that inevitable part of the scenario when the GM goes around the table and says "So, what kind of characters are we playing today?" :)
IC your character will call themselves whatever you think your character would call themselves, but OOC, things like accurately identifying which class you're playing become important. Thankfully, char gender is not important OOC. Anyone remember way back when D&D actually required female chars to have lower starting stats? Gross.
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I'm currently playing a male witch in a Skull&Shackles game and it works fine. It seems to me that the core premise of the wicth class is "arcane caster who derives power from some sort of 'patron'," so any concept that works with that should be fine.
My character was a wannabe pirate who made a deal with an entity of the sea for power. The other characters have stopped freaking out when I have long, one sided conversations with my turtle each morning. He whispers the secrets of the ocean into my mind when I'm sleeping, see?
...which is just an example of how flavor is yours to play with as you desire.
We should also keep in mind that characters may not refer to themselves using game terms like we do.
Frank the Fighter might call himself Francis the Bold, Warrior of the Seven Kingdoms!
Absolutely! I was mostly referring to that inevitable part of the scenario when the GM goes around the table and says "So, what kind of characters are we playing today?" :)
IC your character will call themselves whatever you think your character would call themselves, but OOC, things like accurately identifying which class you're playing become important. Thankfully, char gender is not important OOC. Anyone remember way back when D&D actually required female chars to have lower starting stats? Gross.
Hah hah, sexism is funny! (not really, but THAT was).
didn't they gain some benefit too? CHA bonus or something?
It's been so long...
Witches can be male, but if they wish to use class specific magic items, they may need to wear women's clothes.
If a man's wearing them, they're a man's clothes, not a woman's clothes, unless he stole them.
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Anyone remember way back when D&D actually required female chars to have lower starting stats? Gross.Hah hah, sexism is funny! (not really, but THAT was).
didn't they gain some benefit too? CHA bonus or something?
It's been so long...
OD&D was before my time, but 1e AD&D didn't have a penalty per se, but the maximum strength scores for women were lower than those for men. Most of the time it didn't matter unless you were a fighter, but I think the strength maximum for a female halfling was 14. There was no compensatory bonus either. B/X and BECMI had no ability differences between the sexes and 2e had eliminated it as well.
It was a "feature" of many early CRPGs. Wizardry stands out in my mind as one where women had -1 Str, +1 Cha or equivalent.
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As a (literally) card carrying male witch, I can tell you that the term "Warlock" is indeed extremely insulting and offensive to us.
However, I personally see no issues with it being used as a label in a game. Most people are ignorant of the difference between the terms witch and warlock, and do not mean to be insulting by their use of it. The phrase "witches and warlocks" has been used so often by literature and media that when used as a reference, I consider it mere confusion or ignorance and no harm done. So, call your male witch a warlock in game if you feel a need to differentiate genders, just don't call a real Wiccan one.
Anyone remember way back when D&D actually required female chars to have lower starting stats? Gross.Hah hah, sexism is funny! (not really, but THAT was).
didn't they gain some benefit too? CHA bonus or something?
It's been so long...
OD&D was before my time, but 1e AD&D didn't have a penalty per se, but the maximum strength scores for women were lower than those for men. Most of the time it didn't matter unless you were a fighter, but I think the strength maximum for a female halfling was 14. There was no compensatory bonus either. B/X and BECMI had no ability differences between the sexes and 2e had eliminated it as well.
It was a "feature" of many early CRPGs. Wizardry stands out in my mind as one where women had -1 Str, +1 Cha or equivalent.
AD&D gave us minimums and maximums based on race and sex. A human female fighter could have a maximum of 18/50 strength -- fighters (and only fighters) could roll percentile dice for extraordinary strength. And not all fighters -- female halflings stopped at 14, female gnomes at 15, female elves at 16, female dwarves and half-elves as well as male halflings stopped at 17.
Only a male human fighter could get the 18/00 strength.
Half-orcs got shortchanged on most stats with hard caps on most everything except Strength (still not as good as a human!) and Constitution where they could have a 19.
And no, women didn't get anything in return for being weaker.
It should be noted that the witch hex "Prehensile Hair" allows you to use your hair kind of like a third arm. At the end of the paragraph it says:
"A typical male witch with this hex can also manipulate his beard, moustache, or eyebrows."
So Male witches are indeed common. You can have one with a Gnarly beard, and use it to slam attack people with your manliness.
I think the most important thing I learned from this thread is that I can make a character with a prehensile beard. I wonder if that would work with Ironbeard and let you deliver a cold iron beard slam.
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Witch is a non-gendered word as far as its application in the Pathfinder RPG rules.
References to gender in class abilities in the description are based on the gender on the iconic (barbarian, paladin, shaman, and witch are referred to as "her", for example).
Witch is a non-gendered word as far as its application in the Pathfinder RPG rules.
References to gender in class abilities in the description are based on the gender on the iconic (barbarian, paladin, shaman, and witch are referred to as "her", for example).
I presume that you meant Oracle instead of Shaman, but this is probably nit picking. :)
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As a (literally) card carrying male witch, I can tell you that the term "Warlock" is indeed extremely insulting and offensive to us.
However, I personally see no issues with it being used as a label in a game. Most people are ignorant of the difference between the terms witch and warlock, and do not mean to be insulting by their use of it. The phrase "witches and warlocks" has been used so often by literature and media that when used as a reference, I consider it mere confusion or ignorance and no harm done. So, call your male witch a warlock in game if you feel a need to differentiate genders, just don't call a real Wiccan one.
See, I learned something today.
I'm one of those people who actually attempts to be "PC" whenever I can, so I'm just gonna try to drop Warlock from my vocabulary (I mean, for general use, I may dust it off if it actually applies to someone!).
Learning is fun!
I presume that you meant Oracle instead of Shaman, but this is probably nit picking. :)Witch is a non-gendered word as far as its application in the Pathfinder RPG rules.
References to gender in class abilities in the description are based on the gender on the iconic (barbarian, paladin, shaman, and witch are referred to as "her", for example).
The shaman's a her, too.
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Huh, learned a lot about etymology in this thread. I remembered the definition for warlock when I was looking up 'dark' class names, but finding out how it's viewed in other religions and cultures is super interesting. I'd always just thought of it as man witch, but finding out how that came to be is quite the ride. Always glad to see people being more accepting of others cultural and religious beliefs though, sure makes for a better gaming environment!
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As numerous people have noted, the term witch has historically been applied to both men and women (the fact that it's more commonly applied to women doesn't invalidate its use for men any more than we need a different term for "doctor" just because it's historically been applied more often to men).
If you're balking at using the term "witch" to describe your male character of the witch class, you might want to consider what's driving that.
I summon the power of the euphemism treadmill.
Certain words can only be used for a short time, and once the word comes to mean something derogatory then the word is changed to a new word, which in time will become a bad word, thus needing a new politically correct term.....
This is why people can not seem to ever settle on a description for themselves or others.
I could have a huge discussion on this, but I feel that it should be in a separate thread in the off topic section.
So... what about Werewolves? That translates as Man-Wolf.
So... what about Werewolves? That translates as Man-Wolf.
Well, consider that the other term is Lycanthrope. With lycan meaning wolf and thrope meaning human. Thus in the above case we can conclude that that is used as a gender neutral term for human. Rather the gender neutral use of man is best not used or a harmless abbreviation is a separate debate.
I summon the power of the euphemism treadmill.
Certain words can only be used for a short time, and once the word comes to mean something derogatory then the word is changed to a new word, which in time will become a bad word, thus needing a new politically correct term.....
This is why people can not seem to ever settle on a description for themselves or others.
Pretty much. You are guaranteed these days to run across a term that someone may find offensive. The best course is to take it as a learning experience and, upon discovering that you may be being offensive, try to change. Or at least not do whatever you are doing in mixed company (he says jokingly!)
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We should also keep in mind that characters may not refer to themselves using game terms like we do.
Frank the Fighter might call himself Francis the Bold, Warrior of the Seven Kingdoms!
Absolutely! I was mostly referring to that inevitable part of the scenario when the GM goes around the table and says "So, what kind of characters are we playing today?" :)
IC your character will call themselves whatever you think your character would call themselves, but OOC, things like accurately identifying which class you're playing become important. Thankfully, char gender is not important OOC. Anyone remember way back when D&D actually required female chars to have lower starting stats? Gross.
Hah hah, sexism is funny! (not really, but THAT was).
didn't they gain some benefit too? CHA bonus or something?
It's been so long...
I don't think that qualifies as sexism - just unnecessary simulation which detracts from gameplay. 1e was pretty full of such. (Women actually AREN'T as strong as men as a whole - at least among we humans. Stating it isn't sexist. Men can't have babies. Also not sexist. Just facts.)
On average, women aren't as strong as men, in the real world. This not true in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting. Women are equally likely to be high strength as men. Insisting that women should be weaker than men in a fantastic setting where we get to decide how things work... why would you do that?
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On average, women aren't as strong as men, in the real world. This not true in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting. Women are equally likely to be high strength as men. Insisting that women should be weaker than men in a fantastic setting where we get to decide how things work... why would you do that?
I'm totally with you. It would annoy me if it worked that way. Hence "just unnecessary simulation which detracts from gameplay". But that doesn't make such a rule sexist.
Witches can be male, but if they wish to use class specific magic items, they may need to wear women's clothes.
Corsets and blouses are not inherently "women's clothes" any more than pants are inherently "men's clothes." In the real world, blouses and corsets have both been viewed as appropriate clothing for men in various times and cultures. I see no reason why the same couldn't be true in a fantasy world.
So... what about Werewolves? That translates as Man-Wolf.Well, consider that the other term is Lycanthrope. With lycan meaning wolf and thrope meaning human. Thus in the above case we can conclude that that is used as a gender neutral term for human. Rather the gender neutral use of man is best not used or a harmless abbreviation is a separate debate.
to note; the Were prefix of werewolf has the same root as Wereman(as once males were referred to as weremen and females were referred to as wyfmen), so, to clarify/support VRMH, werewolf is definitively male.
I played a male witch in Carrion Crown as our DM restricted us from playing clerics and Paladins. He was tricked into a pact with Urgothoa to try and heal his sister and tried to spend the campaign getting out of it.
Moritanius Gaunt referred to himself as a dabbler in the arcane arts. What other people called him was none of his concern really. If I recall correctly he was called far worse things by his own party members!
Class names are mechanics, like hp, and level. They don't have to function in the roleplay aspect of the game at all unless your group wants them to. Gone are the days when if you cast magic missile you must be a wizard.
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Just use Witch and Witcher.Until you hit level 20 and can be called the Witchest.
True enough - The Witchest
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I just want to point out that the use of both Witch and Warlock predate the founding of Wicca as a religion by several centuries. The term has been kicking around since long before all the nice neopagans were around to find it offensive.
At to the main point I'd say each class would call themselves whatever was culturally appropriate to his or her self-perceived role in society based on whatever their native language was. Class names are just shorthand to write on your character sheet so the GM doesn't get confused.
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same thread as usual so same post as the times before
Out of character:
"What class are you, man?"
"Oh, just a witch, no archetype."
In character:
"Gods...what...what are you?"
*smiles sadly* "I'm complicated."
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I just want to point out that the use of both Witch and Warlock predate the founding of Wicca as a religion by several centuries. The term has been kicking around since long before all the nice neopagans were around to find it offensive.
I'm really not sure what your point is here. The fact is that language changes and things that were once innocuous can turn grossly offensive. This transformation is not even limited to time but also is location based. The UK word for cigarette is filtered on this web forum; however, I can use "fanny" all day long here but in the UK it has a MUCH different connotation. Does that mean you should stop using the word? That really depends on context of the situation you are in.
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I'm really not sure what your point is here. The fact is that language changes and things that were once innocuous can turn grossly offensive. This transformation is not even limited to time but also is location based. The UK word for cigarette is filtered on this web forum; however, I can use "fanny" all day long here but in the UK it has a MUCH different connotation. Does that mean you should stop using the word? That really depends on context of the situation you are in.I just want to point out that the use of both Witch and Warlock predate the founding of Wicca as a religion by several centuries. The term has been kicking around since long before all the nice neopagans were around to find it offensive.
I'm iffy on it myself - but I'd argue that it's a difference of intent. It's just like someone would be overreacting if, after moving to the UK, they were offended by someone asking for a cigarette. It's never had the history there of it being intended as being offensive. (Even an old woman - whom that term was, at one point, a term for.)
Outside of perhaps very small groups, the term 'warlock' hasn't been intended as offensive for (probably) centuries.
I just want to point out that the use of both Witch and Warlock predate the founding of Wicca as a religion by several centuries.
True..... but the use of "witch" as a gender-neutral term for a magic-worker also predates the use of "warlock" as a term for a male witch by several centuries.
Back to the original question:
Yes, witches in Pathfinder can be male, as can barbarians, sorcerers and paladins. Kudos to Paizo for gender balance in their iconics.
Yes, the word "witch" can be applied to both men and women, and the term was indeed used historically for both, even if far more women were burnt at the stake for witchcraft than men.
In the Salem witch trials (around 1692, IIRC) both men and women were accused of witchcraft.
The story I heard was that while the use of the term "warlock" to refer to a male witch does have roots in Scottish usage, it was really popularized in the US by that old TV show, "Bewitched". Most modern dictionary entries derive from this icon of popular culture.
IIRC, in the Forgotten Realms, the word "witch" was used primarily for the "witches of Rashamen" who were indeed exclusively female.
Today, in Pathfinder, a witch can be male or female. But unless you houserule slumber to require a saving throw, like I do, this class will remain grossly overpowered and worthy of a blanket DM ban - IMHO, of course.
I deal with the slumber issue with elves, and the reminder that the use of sleepy time tactics ensures that as the GM, sleepy time tactics will be used by NPC's, that usually does the trick when a simple, "please don't use captain snoozmaster" fails. :)
*slaps head in frustration*
Why was I convinced that this power was overpowered because it did not require a saving throw? Why? Why?
Because pretty much none of us can remember every detail of the game, no shame in that :).
The main issue with the Slumber Hex is that it has no HD limit like sleep spells.
It just seems like a bit much to ban the entire class instead of just that one hex.
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Anyone ever figure out a way to automatically deal 1 point of damage to yourself whenever you fall asleep? (I've considered strapping a vial of acid such that it'd break when I fall prone. The times it happens when tripped etc. might be worth the risk.)
Makes a familiar (or just trained monkey I suppose - though it'd probably die horribly to the first AOE) that you've trained to slap you whenever you fall asleep sound pretty sweet too.
I'm really not sure what your point is here. The fact is that language changes and things that were once innocuous can turn grossly offensive. This transformation is not even limited to time but also is location based. The UK word for cigarette is filtered on this web forum; however, I can use "fanny" all day long here but in the UK it has a MUCH different connotation. Does that mean you should stop using the word? That really depends on context of the situation you are in.I just want to point out that the use of both Witch and Warlock predate the founding of Wicca as a religion by several centuries. The term has been kicking around since long before all the nice neopagans were around to find it offensive.
On one of my visits to the UK in my youth, I told my cousins I wanted to give a girl a pat on the fanny (thinking it meant 'bum', like, fanny packs go on the rear, right?)
They were shocked. :D
What might be seen as minor cultural differences can result in hilarious or offensive misunderstandings.
Before this thread, I genuinely believe Witch/Warlock were feminine/masculine for the same thing.
I do miss the 3.5 class of Warlock (and Dragonfire Adept)-loved the unlimited daily stuff they could do!
new magic item, wake up time alarm clock?