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I have read the sticky thread above regarding upgrading your gear in PFS. It covers alot and is helpful. However my question is not covered there. I apologize if is answered elsewhere and I have missed it.
Is one able to upgrade a Belt of Giant Strength to a Belt of Thunderous Charging?
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Actually, it is not that clear. I need to go look at the item to be sure, but you *can* upgrade a numbered item to a named item that includes it. For example, a +1 longsword can be upgraded to a named magical longsword. So if a belt of thunderous charging is described as "a +2 belt of giant strength that also does x, then you could upgrade it.
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An engraving of a charging rhinoceros decorates this thick leather belt.
The belt grants its wearer a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.
The belt magnifies the wearer’s momentum whenever she charges, granting her a +2 bonus on bull rush and overrun maneuvers. Furthermore, when the wearer makes a charge attack, her melee weapons and natural weapons deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are.
Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Can I Upgrade a Named Magic Item?
Named magic items—including specific armor and specific weapons—are not upgradeable. Non-magic specific armor and specific weapons may be upgraded normally. Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions. Wondrous items whose names include a +X value (such as bracers of armor, headband of vast intelligence, amulet of might fists, etc.) may also be upgraded following the rules for upgrading magical items on page 19 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
It would appear from the FAQ that no you may not upgrade a Belt of Giant Strength to a Belt of Thunderous Charging.
It is possible to upgrade magical weapons and armor to named versions but I don't see the same provision for wondrous items.
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Can I Upgrade a Named Magic Item?
Named magic items—including specific armor and specific weapons—are not upgradeable. Non-magic specific armor and specific weapons may be upgraded normally. Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions. Wondrous items whose names include a +X value (such as bracers of armor, headband of vast intelligence, amulet of might fists, etc.) may also be upgraded following the rules for upgrading magical items on page 19 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
It would appear from the FAQ that no you may not upgrade a Belt of Giant Strength to a Belt of Thunderous Charging.
It is possible to upgrade magical weapons and armor to named versions but I don't see the same provision for wondrous items.
Actually, the rule you quoted says the opposite. I have bolded the relevant line in the quote above and repeat it here:
"Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions."
The tests to apply are:
1. Is it the same basic material as the final item (so if the final item is specifically made of gold, you can't do the upgrade)?
2. Is it the same basic shape?
3. Does the bonus on your item exceed the enhancement bonus on the final item?
So you can upgrade a belt of giant strength +2 into a belt of thunderous charging, as it meets all the above requirements. You cannot do so with a +4 belt. Furthermore, you cannot upgrade a +1 chainmail into a celestial chain or a +1 full plate into a mithral full plate of speed because of the "basic material" restriction.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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No, but belts *are* "Wondrous items whose names include a +X value"
So the total line is:
"Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions. Wondrous items whose names include a +X value (such as bracers of armor, headband of vast intelligence, amulet of might fists, etc.) may also be upgraded following the rules for upgrading magical items on page 19 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play."
I.E. Armor, Weapons, and Wonderous items with +X may be upgraded by adding more pluses or by advancing them to a named version.
That is how you can go from a belt of giant strength, to a belt of physical perfection.
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I don't mean to be pedantic but this thread so far hasn't really answered my question. There seems to be a lot of disagreements on this question and I didn't realize it was that deep of an issue. Has anything like this been ruled on before?
What about upgrading any of the Lesser belts to Greater versions?
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Can I Upgrade a Named Magic Item?
Named magic items—including specific armor and specific weapons—are not upgradeable. Non-magic specific armor and specific weapons may be upgraded normally. Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions. Wondrous items whose names include a +X value (such as bracers of armor, headband of vast intelligence, amulet of might fists, etc.) may also be upgraded following the rules for upgrading magical items on page 19 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
It would appear from the FAQ that no you may not upgrade a Belt of Giant Strength to a Belt of Thunderous Charging.
It is possible to upgrade magical weapons and armor to named versions but I don't see the same provision for wondrous items.
Actually, the rule you quoted says the opposite. I have bolded the relevant line in the quote above and repeat it here:
"Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions."
The tests to apply are:
1. Is it the same basic material as the final item (so if the final item is specifically made of gold, you can't do the upgrade)?
2. Is it the same basic shape?
3. Does the bonus on your item exceed the enhancement bonus on the final item?So you can upgrade a belt of giant strength +2 into a belt of thunderous charging, as it meets all the above requirements. You cannot do so with a +4 belt. Furthermore, you cannot upgrade a +1 chainmail into a celestial chain or a +1 full plate into a mithral full plate of speed because of the "basic material" restriction.
The sentence you highlighted speaks ONLY to armor or weapons. A belt is a wondrous item.
So I standby my statement as being accurate.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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No, but belts *are* "Wondrous items whose names include a +X value"
So the total line is:
"Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions. Wondrous items whose names include a +X value (such as bracers of armor, headband of vast intelligence, amulet of might fists, etc.) may also be upgraded following the rules for upgrading magical items on page 19 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play."
I.E. Armor, Weapons, and Wondrous items with +X may be upgraded by adding more pluses or by advancing them to a named version.
That is how you can go from a belt of giant strength, to a belt of physical perfection.
There is a '.' there. That ends the sentence. The next sentence is a new thought and not related to the armor or weapons. Additionally, the items listed (bracers of armor, headband of vast intelligence, amulet of mighty fists) all have +X modifiers. When a Belt of Giant Strength is referred to it is +2 or +4 or +6. A Belt of Thunderous Charging is not refered to as +2 Belt of Thunderous Charging or +4 Thunderous Charging.
So only weapons and armor can be upgraded to named versions. Wondrous items can be upgraded only if the it is a +X. IF it is named, than it can not be upgraded into.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Yes, but the new thought is "You can also upgrade wondrous items this way if they have a +X in their name."You and I are on the same page I think.
Well, not quite. I think you can upgrade the various +X belts and headbands into the various named belts and headbands that are +X and a power.
This would be a good one to add to the "Clarifications" thread.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I have read the sticky thread above regarding upgrading your gear in PFS. It covers alot and is helpful. However my question is not covered there. I apologize if is answered elsewhere and I have missed it.
Is one able to upgrade a Belt of Giant Strength to a Belt of Thunderous Charging?
An answer has been provided. Agree that no one who has replied has any official weight behind what we have been saying, but it is an answer. And I would offer since no official response has come means that the responses being given are the correct responses.
What about upgrading any of the Lesser belts to Greater versions?
No, you would not be able to upgrade Lesser to Greater because they do have +X in the name.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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...and what about Lesser to Greater?
I can see what both sides are saying and I can see logic on both sides. But has there been a ruling on anything like this before? Do we need to have this ruling made on this?
Sorry, Lesser to greater was answered up above, and the answer was correct. You cannot upgrade lesser to greater. I don't *like* that answer, and I would back a push to get it changed, but currently it is the rule.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Yes, but the new thought is "You can also upgrade wondrous items this way if they have a +X in their name."You and I are on the same page I think.Well, not quite. I think you can upgrade the various +X belts and headbands into the various named belts and headbands that are +X and a power.
This would be a good one to add to the "Clarifications" thread.
If the new item has +X in their name as well then yes we are on the same page. Your example of a belt of giant strength to a belt of physical perfection is valid because both have +X in their name.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Yes, but the new thought is "You can also upgrade wondrous items this way if they have a +X in their name."You and I are on the same page I think.Well, not quite. I think you can upgrade the various +X belts and headbands into the various named belts and headbands that are +X and a power.
This would be a good one to add to the "Clarifications" thread.
If the new item has +X in their name as well then yes we are on the same page. Your example of a belt of giant strength to a belt of physical perfection is valid because both have +X in their name.
Like I said. We disagree on how that section is meant to be interpreted. Both interpretations are reasonable. Short of wading through the stupidly huge "upgrading an item" thread to see if there is a clarification, (which I don't care to do, honestly) we are not likely to agree.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Like I said. We disagree on how that section is meant to be interpreted. Both interpretations are reasonable. Short of wading through the stupidly huge "upgrading an item" thread to see if there is a clarification, (which I don't care to do, honestly) we are not likely to agree.
Fair enough. Hopefully we will get a response from the powers that be to provide additional clarification.
Or one of the forum gurus being able to provide a link to an official clarification.
I just know that if was a GM I would not sign off on someone doing the type of upgrade being requested.
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"An answer has been provided."
...not really. Individual opinion have been provided. Debate has been provided.
This isn't something anyone should have to expect table variation on. I just want to know whether a new item has to be purchased or if it can be upgraded.
As I stated in my original post I have already read through the sticky thread and didn't see an answer (or even the question) or I wouldn't have posted here asking.
....perhaps this she be included in the blog if it is this broadly questioned.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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"An answer has been provided."
...not really. Individual opinion have been provided. Debate has been provided.
This isn't something anyone should have to expect table variation on. I just want to know whether a new item has to be purchased or if it can be upgraded.
As I stated in my original post I have already read through the sticky thread and didn't see an answer (or even the question) or I wouldn't have posted here asking.
....perhaps this she be included in the blog if it is this broadly questioned.
And both sides believe their "answer" is the correct one. :)
So yes, more debate than answers.
If it was me, I would purchase a new item in your specific example.
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Can I Upgrade a Named Magic Item?
Named magic items—including specific armor and specific weapons—are not upgradeable. Non-magic specific armor and specific weapons may be upgraded normally. Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions. Wondrous items whose names include a +X value (such as bracers of armor, headband of vast intelligence, amulet of might fists, etc.) may also be upgraded following the rules for upgrading magical items on page 19 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
It would appear from the FAQ that no you may not upgrade a Belt of Giant Strength to a Belt of Thunderous Charging.
It is possible to upgrade magical weapons and armor to named versions but I don't see the same provision for wondrous items.
Actually, the rule you quoted says the opposite. I have bolded the relevant line in the quote above and repeat it here:
"Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions."
The tests to apply are:
1. Is it the same basic material as the final item (so if the final item is specifically made of gold, you can't do the upgrade)?
2. Is it the same basic shape?
3. Does the bonus on your item exceed the enhancement bonus on the final item?So you can upgrade a belt of giant strength +2 into a belt of thunderous charging, as it meets all the above requirements. You cannot do so with a +4 belt. Furthermore, you cannot upgrade a +1 chainmail into a celestial chain or a +1 full plate into a mithral full plate of speed because of the "basic material" restriction.
This is the correct answer and is supported by the quoted FAQ.
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But, again, claudekennilol, you have selected only part of the phrase. In that sentence magic weapons and armor is significant, as his been pointed out numerous times. You need the full sentence to have meaning... the partial clause is not enough. The subject of the verb may is important here, and is magic weapons and armor
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No. It has to have a +X in the name and you can only upgrade it by going from +X to +Y, where Y is greater than X.
Since Belt of Thunderous Charging isn't a +X item, it can't be upgraded or upgraded to.
The rule quoted above says you can do it for magic weapons and armor but doesn't indicate that you can do it for wondrous items. The wondrous items part only says "items whose names include a +x value". Belt of Thunderous charging doesn't have that, and it's not a weapon or armor. You can't upgrade to it.