How can a creature get change shape as supernatural ability?


Advice


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It must be the change shape supernatural ability and not just the polymorph spell or spell-like ability, because change shape allows the creature to retain its ability scores and other abilities in the new form and keep the form indefinitely.

It should allow creatures as big as giants, dragons or alike to become humanoids.

It could be via an item, template, etc.

At will is desirable, but a fair amount of times/day should suffice.


Change Shape is restricted to changes within one size category, so your request isn't going to work unless they are large-size dragons/giants or you're willing to count humanoid (giant).


Vampire template have Change Shape as SU in to dire bat or wolf

yep its not humanoid but... :D

how cool is Vampire Dragon heh ?:)

other option you can use but not what excatly you want
6 lvls of druid and Wild Shape in to small Elemental


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I don't believe that there is anything that fits what you're looking for.

But, if you were to homebrew something, it's hardly unique to ignore the size restriction in change shape. Imps ignore it. Dragons ignore it. Quasits, Baphomet, Water Yai, Tunche, Karumzek, Scylla, and Lawgiver all ignore it.

It's honestly an odd rule to have in the system, in my opinion. All (or almost all) change shape creatures already specify limitations in their ability. It's an weird change from 3.5 that doesn't do a whole lot.


QuidEst wrote:
Change Shape is restricted to changes within one size category, so your request isn't going to work unless they are large-size dragons/giants or you're willing to count humanoid (giant).

There are some exceptions to this rule, for example:

"Change Shape (Su) A young or older bronze dragon can take any animal or humanoid form 3/day as if using polymorph."


The Archive wrote:

I don't believe that there is anything that fits what you're looking for.

But, if you were to homebrew something, it's hardly unique to ignore the size restriction in change shape. Imps ignore it. Dragons ignore it. Quasits, Baphomet, Water Yai, Tunche, Karumzek, Scylla, and Lawgiver all ignore it.

It's honestly an odd rule to have in the system, in my opinion. All (or almost all) change shape creatures already specify limitations in their ability. It's an weird change from 3.5 that doesn't do a whole lot.

What would you recommend? An item? A template?

Well, the requirement reason is: from an old game i'm porting some NPC dragons to the current games i'm GMing. Those chromatic dragons were able to use change shape a fair amount of times per day into humanoid forms; they retained that form as long as they desired and they retained their ability scores in those forms, mainly strength and constitution. Fortunately i never explained how they did it, so it could be anything. I can homebrew the how, but i though if the rules have something easier i won't go into the pain to edit something that hard as change shape.

If i have to homebrew it i'd go for a template... an item able to do it was so powerful that PCs and NPCs would kill for it.


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If not for the size difference I would say racial heritage into the kitsune shape shifting abilities would be worth a look.


cablop wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Change Shape is restricted to changes within one size category, so your request isn't going to work unless they are large-size dragons/giants or you're willing to count humanoid (giant).

There are some exceptions to this rule, for example:

"Change Shape (Su) A young or older bronze dragon can take any animal or humanoid form 3/day as if using polymorph."

That's not an exception- the bronze dragon is still subject to the size difference restrictions in the universal monster ability description of Change Shape. Because Change Shape doesn't alter size modifiers to stats, it'd be kind of weird to have no restriction on the size difference allowed.

Since that's what you're going for, it's homebrew anyway.


QuidEst wrote:
cablop wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Change Shape is restricted to changes within one size category, so your request isn't going to work unless they are large-size dragons/giants or you're willing to count humanoid (giant).

There are some exceptions to this rule, for example:

"Change Shape (Su) A young or older bronze dragon can take any animal or humanoid form 3/day as if using polymorph."

That's not an exception- the bronze dragon is still subject to the size difference restrictions in the universal monster ability description of Change Shape. Because Change Shape doesn't alter size modifiers to stats, it'd be kind of weird to have no restriction on the size difference allowed.

Since that's what you're going for, it's homebrew anyway.

I'm not sure if i follow you... If it says it can become a humanoid creature, why do you say it is restricted to the size restriction of the ability, when clearly medium is more than one step away from gargantuan?


There are huge and gargantuan humanoids.


Avoron wrote:
There are huge and gargantuan humanoids.

OK, i have to admit it...

But that is a drastic change to how the metallic dragons work. AFAIK they used to change shape into medium, and even small, humanoids to interact with humanoids and not reveal they really are dragons...

What a shame on the new rules!


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cablop wrote:
Avoron wrote:
There are huge and gargantuan humanoids.

OK, i have to admit it...

But that is a drastic change to how the metallic dragons work. AFAIK they used to change shape into medium, and even small, humanoids to interact with humanoids and not reveal they really are dragons...

What a shame on the new rules!

I have seen this come up before.

IIRC, it was generally agreed that this was an oversight by the design team, and dragons with change shape should be able to change into humans or whatever.


Snowblind wrote:
cablop wrote:
Avoron wrote:
There are huge and gargantuan humanoids.

OK, i have to admit it...

But that is a drastic change to how the metallic dragons work. AFAIK they used to change shape into medium, and even small, humanoids to interact with humanoids and not reveal they really are dragons...

What a shame on the new rules!

I have seen this come up before.

IIRC, it was generally agreed that this was an oversight by the design team, and dragons with change shape should be able to change into humans or whatever.

Well... AFAIK they can not only shape into a generic humanoid but a specific same individual others recognize ("You ask for Gurundel? See that manor in that hill? There. But he keeps traveling all the time. I hope you find him, it's a really kind person, despite sometimes arrogant. You'll get confused when talking with him, 'cause he uses too many old words and expressions.").

That would mean they can, by using change shape - and that agreement and not the rules -, change into an elephant or a mouse or a bat if they wanted?


Kitsunes get the ability to shift further than one size category (into a fox), and when they do, standard polymorph size rules apply instead. I'd probably do that, although I might leave Con alone.


cablop wrote:
It must be the change shape supernatural ability and not just the polymorph spell or spell-like ability, because change shape allows the creature to retain its ability scores and other abilities in the new form and keep the form indefinitely.

Polymorph spells do not override you stats any more! You simply get some modifiers and may get some abilities of the new form, but they will be called out explicitly if you can get it should the form you change into have it.

IN PF polymorph just slightly modifies you stats and gives you a few abilities of the form, besides size and speed. The rest is just cosmetics.

P.S.
If you want to kind of become, but not really, a humanoid, look into a Greater Hat of Disguise.


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What comes to mind is Druid Wild Shape, Kitsune Fox Shape, and Tengu Crow Shape.


Guru-Meditation wrote:
cablop wrote:
It must be the change shape supernatural ability and not just the polymorph spell or spell-like ability, because change shape allows the creature to retain its ability scores and other abilities in the new form and keep the form indefinitely.

Polymorph spells do not override you stats any more! You simply get some modifiers and may get some abilities of the new form, but they will be called out explicitly if you can get it should the form you change into have it.

IN PF polymorph just slightly modifies you stats and gives you a few abilities of the form, besides size and speed. The rest is just cosmetics.

The problem with the spell is the duration, in "previous" rules the dragon need just to change shape into human and spent a whole night at the summer holidays night celebration interacting with the town's people. Now it must be very old to be able to stay about 20 minutes in that form per spell casting.

Guru-Meditation wrote:


P.S.
If you want to kind of become, but not really, a humanoid, look into a Greater Hat of Disguise.

Looking into it... Well, just disguise and alter self. But can be used in combo...


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Greater Head of Disguise to take on Human form, and that Ioun Stone that is basically a slotless Hat of Disguise to disguise your generic human looks to look like the recurring same individual. For extra sneakyness this Ioun Stone also makes all Ioun Stones invisible.


cablop wrote:

It must be the change shape supernatural ability and not just the polymorph spell or spell-like ability, because change shape allows the creature to retain its ability scores and other abilities in the new form and keep the form indefinitely.

It should allow creatures as big as giants, dragons or alike to become humanoids.

It could be via an item, template, etc.

At will is desirable, but a fair amount of times/day should suffice.

If you're the DM, you simply give it to the creature by fiat.

If you're the player, you bribe your DM.


Hmmmm. Implanted Ioun stones... I never thought on them before... I'd make the item a different thing... a hat... a hat? a dragon wearing a hat? xD

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