Want to build a melee Hunter in PFS.


Advice


I read the Hunter guide but it is geared towards ranged combat. A strong option to be sure but it wastes the teamwork feats.
I want to take advantage of those teamwork feats and have a very strong animal companion. I found 3 options for improving my aimal companion.

1. Eye for Talent replaces Human Bonus feat

Quote:
Humans have great intuition for hidden potential. They gain a +2 racial bonus on Sense Motive checks. In addition, when they acquire an animal companion, bonded mount, cohort, or familiar, that creature gains a +2 bonus to one ability score of the character’s choice. This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait.

I don't know if granting +2 to my ACs Strength is worth a feat or not.

2. Totem Beast Wis 13, animal companion class feature.

Quote:
Benefit: Select one animal aspect from the list presented in the hunter class’s animal focus class feature. Your animal companion has natural coloration suggestive of this aspect—a bear might have a dark spot in the shape of a bat, or a hawk might have unusual tiger striping in its feathers. Your animal companion gains the benefits of the selected animal aspect, treating its Hit Dice as its effective hunter level for this ability. This bonus doesn’t stack if the animal companion is already under the benefit of the same animal aspect because of the actual class feature.

For example, an animal companion with Totem Beast (snake) under the effect of the snake aspect from its hunter owner would get a +2 bonus on attack rolls when making attacks of opportunity, not a +4 bonus.

If I'm understanding this right my AC not only gets a permanent animal focus ability of my choice but if I choose a stat boost it will increase to +4 when it gets to 8 hit dice.

3. Huntmaster Handle Animal 1 rank; either the animal companion, divine bond (mount), or mount class feature; human.

Quote:

Benefit: If you have the animal companion class feature, pick one of the following types of animal companions that this feat affects: bird, dog, small cat, or horse. If you have the divine bond (mount) or mount class feature, this feat always affects horses.

You gain a +2 bonus on Handle Animal and Knowledge (nature) checks with creatures of that type of animal. Furthermore, you are treated as one level higher when determining the abilities of your animal companion or mount, as long as it is of the chosen type.

If Bird counted things like Roc or Axebeak this would be insane. But I feel certain that it means regular birds. However Horse is not a bad choice of animal companion if you are doing mounted combat.

At 8th level a Hunter can have 2 permanent Animal Focus abilities going on it's AC.

With all 3 options a Horse would have 8HD, 3 focuses, and assuming I put the second stat bump into Str the following physical stats.
Str 28
Dex 20
Con 21
+10 natural armor bonus + 3 from Barkskin + at least 4 armor.
AC 32
And Multiattack drops the penalty from the Hoof attacks to -2.

Of course there are better mounts then Horse. I could take Roc instead. Or I think it is possible to put a saddle on a large Tiger and if the tiger with all of those bonuses doesn't kill the enemy I will.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Scarab Sages

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Eye for Talent is golden for any AC class including Hunters, but do not put the +2 to STR, put it in Intelligence. This will allow your AC to have more tricks, and more importantly, once it has greater that 3 INT, it can take non-animal feats.


Your Animal Companion is going to be pretty good by default, just with your teamwork feats. It can take quite a few feats to make your character into the Melee beast you should be!

Power Attack, naturally. You'll need Combat Expertise to qualify for Pack Flanking too. And probably need to spend a couple of normal feats on Teamwork ones to get the Outflank, Pack Flanking, Combat Reflexes, Broken Wing Gambit, Paired Opportunists combo going.

You'll be a whirlwind of syergic death once it comes online.


Heavy Armor Proficiency will allow you to have 20 AC with 12 DEX, which saves your points for elsewhere.


Imbicatus wrote:
Eye for Talent is golden for any AC class including Hunters, but do not put the +2 to STR, put it in Intelligence. This will allow your AC to have more tricks, and more importantly, once it has greater that 3 INT, it can take non-animal feats.

I didn't think of that. That means I can start it off with 4 Int, have lots of tricks, and can have it take any starting feat I want as long as it meets the prereqs.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

I would keep the human feat, spend it on something teamwork-related, and don't worry about my animal's intelligence since he'll be getting half a dozen free teamwork feats. Plus, several archetypes for animal companions exist that offer extra feats.

By the rules, animal companions always know how to use their own feats, and they don't particularly need more feats beyond all that.

Silver Crusade

First: all animal companions in PFSP. Have only armor and neck slot item. Any thing else you have to take extra item slot feat.

Second: Eye for Talent: using it for Int is not the best thing every one think it is. You take Extra item slot headband. Get a +2, or +4 Int headband and tie the bonus to skills you want your animal companion to have. Same effect as the eye for talent with the added benefit of extra skill ranks for the animal companion.

Third: Small Cat: You need 2 items to turn it in to a melee power house. Amulet of mighty fist agile, and the Headband of Int. You don't increase it's size at level 4. Just leave it small, and get the extra bonus to Dex.

This is just level 1. Currently level 5 in a home game cat is +12 to hit +9 damage. The group calls it fluffy of doom.
Human Hunter level 1
Eye for Talent: +2Dex
Huntmaster

Cat, Small (Cheetah, Leopard)
Starting Statistics:
Size Small
Speed 50 ft.
HP: 19 (3HD = 13.5 +3Con +3Toughness)
AC 19 +1 natural armor +1 Size +7 Dex
Attack bite +9 (1d4+1 plus trip), 2 claws +9 (1d2+1)
Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 25(Eye for Talent, and Animal Focus), Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
Feat: Weapon Finesse, Toughness


calagnar wrote:

First: all animal companions in PFSP. Have only armor and neck slot item. Any thing else you have to take extra item slot feat.

Second: Eye for Talent: using it for Int is not the best thing every one think it is. You take Extra item slot headband. Get a +2, or +4 Int headband and tie the bonus to skills you want your animal companion to have. Same effect as the eye for talent with the added benefit of extra skill ranks for the animal companion.

Third: Small Cat: You need 2 items to turn it in to a melee power house. Amulet of mighty fist agile, and the Headband of Int. You don't increase it's size at level 4. Just leave it small, and get the extra bonus to Dex.

This is just level 1. Currently level 5 in a home game cat is +12 to hit +9 damage. The group calls it fluffy of doom.
Human Hunter level 1
Eye for Talent: +2Dex
Huntmaster

Cat, Small (Cheetah, Leopard)
Starting Statistics:
Size Small
Speed 50 ft.
HP: 19 (3HD = 13.5 +3Con +3Toughness)
AC 19 +1 natural armor +1 Size +7 Dex
Attack bite +9 (1d4+1 plus trip), 2 claws +9 (1d2+1)
Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 25(Eye for Talent, and Animal Focus), Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
Feat: Weapon Finesse, Toughness

Cool idea. In PFS you can't start with Huntmaster because you are not allowed to have an animal companion or mount with more HD then your level +1. But I can take the feat at 3rd level. For fame reasons I can't take an agile aomf until part way through 5th level at the earliest. On the other hand the Agile Maneuvers feat would allow the small cat to have a good chance at trip.

Grand Lodge

Quote:
Second: Eye for Talent: using it for Int is not the best thing every one think it is. You take Extra item slot headband. Get a +2, or +4 Int headband and tie the bonus to skills you want your animal companion to have. Same effect as the eye for talent with the added benefit of extra skill ranks for the animal companion.

Would take you level 5+ to earn the gold for the headband and then you have sunk 4,000gp into your pet along with the feat you're talking about. Till then you are stuck with Animal only feats. To choose such a feat (beyond those listed under Animal Companion feats) you still need 3+ Int. Because the feat was originally created for familiars who have the 3+ int Level 1. Dms could vary on this tho...I'd be sure to ask.

Getting a AC's int to 3 should be most Animal companion classes top priority. As a 3+ int means it also understands 1 language which makes controlling it easier.


You actually have to give the AC a rank in Linguistics to understand a language. Though it needs Int 3 to take the non standard skill. It is also risky. It already does what you want via Handle Animal but if you give it Common to understand your allies you are making it vulnerable to language dependent spells.


Brawler (wild child) single level dip is amazing for hunter. Gain full AC progression, martial mastery (so many combat teamwork feats) and brawlers cunning (it's almost worth it for this alone, pack flanking is awesome but the pre-reqs hurt). It is worth the delay in animal focus. Spell casting delay is inconsequential, you are not a caster.

Small cat with weapon finesse is pretty solid at low levels where hitting things is often more important than the damage you do. That said I still found +7 to hit more than adequate and the extra damage from +2/4 strength was far more useful. I still had the highest AC in the party even at level 3/4. Strongly consider giving kitty a growth spurt around level 4-5 though as small kitty will not stand the test of time, you will miss not having pounce.

Scarab Sages

Bigguyinblack wrote:
You actually have to give the AC a rank in Linguistics to understand a language. Though it needs Int 3 to take the non standard skill. It is also risky. It already does what you want via Handle Animal but if you give it Common to understand your allies you are making it vulnerable to language dependent spells.

So take an extremely rare language. Druidic, ancient Osiriani, and so on. Command your animal in that language and they won't have to worry about other language based a effects.


But why bother? You use tricks + Handle Animal to guide your animal. What does speaking to it do?

Grand Lodge

Outside PFS here is the difference between a 2 or less int and a 3+ int AC.

Nonsentient Companions wrote:
a nonsentient companion (one with animal-level intelligence) is loyal to you in the way a well-trained dog is—the creature is conditioned to obey your commands, but its behavior is limited by its intelligence and it can't make altruistic moral decisions—such as nobly sacrificing itself to save another. Animal companions, cavalier mounts, and purchased creatures (such as common horses and guard dogs) fall into this category. In general they're GM-controlled companions. You can direct them using the Handle Animal skill, but their specific behavior is up to the GM.
Sentient Companions wrote:
a sentient companion (a creature that can understand language and has an Intelligence score of at least 3) is considered your ally and obeys your suggestions and orders to the best of its ability. It won't necessarily blindly follow a suicidal order, but it has your interests at heart and does what it can to keep you alive. Paladin bonded mounts, familiars, and cohorts fall into this category, and are usually player-controlled companions.
Bigguyinblack wrote:
You actually have to give the AC a rank in Linguistics to understand a language. Though it needs Int 3 to take the non standard skill. It is also risky. It already does what you want via Handle Animal but if you give it Common to understand your allies you are making it vulnerable to language dependent spells.
Intelligent Animals wrote:

Increasing an animal's Intelligence to 3 or higher means it is smart enough to understand a language. However, unless an awaken spell is used, the animal doesn't automatically and instantly learn a language, any more than a human child does. The animal must be taught a language, usually over the course of months, giving it the understanding of the meaning of words and sentences beyond its trained responses to commands like "attack" and "heel."

Even if the animal is taught to understand a language, it probably lacks the anatomy to actually speak (unless awaken is used). For example, dogs, elephants, and even gorillas lack the proper physiology to speak humanoid languages, though they can use their limited "vocabulary" of sounds to articulate concepts, especially if working with a person who learns what the sounds mean.

An intelligent animal is smart enough to use tools, but might lack the ability to manipulate them. a crow could be able to use simple lockpicks, but a dog can't. Even if the animal is physically capable of using a tool, it might still prefer its own natural body to manufactured items, especially when it comes to weapons. An intelligent gorilla could hold or wield a sword, but its inclination is to make slam attacks. No amount of training (including weapon proficiency feats) is going to make it fully comfortable attacking in any other way.

Even if an animal's Intelligence increases to 3 or higher, you must still use the Handle Animal skill to direct the animal, as it is a smart animal rather than a low-intelligence person (using awaken is an exception—an awakened animal takes orders like a person). The GM should take the animal's Intelligence into account when determining its response to commands or its behavior when it doesn't have specific instructions. For example, an intelligent wolf companion can pick the weakest-looking target if directed to do so, and that same wolf trapped in a burning building might push open a door or window without being told.

No the AC does not need linguistics it just needs time....and time between sessions can give you that instantly. So no they do not need linguistics and you as the PC can choose which Language it becomes accustom to and roughly understands.

Silver Crusade

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
Getting a AC's int to 3 should be most Animal companion classes top priority. As a 3+ int means it also understands 1 language which makes controlling it easier.

In PFSP it dose not matter if they understand a language or not. You must still make a handle animal check to see if they will do what you want. Trick known is 10/12 trick unknown is (pushing move action) 25.

dragonhunterq wrote:
Small cat with weapon finesse is pretty solid at low levels where hitting things is often more important than the damage you do. That said I still found +7 to hit more than adequate and the extra damage from +2/4 strength was far more useful. I still had the highest AC in the party even at level 3/4. Strongly consider giving kitty a growth spurt around level 4-5 though as small kitty will not stand the test of time, you will miss not having pounce.

Small cat's don't get pounce. They get sprint and a minimal increase to their damage dice. At the same time it lowers their to hit and damage if you equip them with a AoMF agile. Now if your plan on not spending the gold yes increase their size. They will do a bit more damage at the cost of to hit and AC.

The gold requirement will be their in a home game or PFSP. Now for the feet that's just something that you have to do in PFSP. The cat is still effective with out it. They just don't do nearly as much damage. That's the same for almost any Dex build player character. You should plan to spend at mini 1/4 of your wealth on your pet if you expect it to be effective.

Trip is based off the weapon that made the attack. You don't need agile maneuvers to use Dex on the trip attack. I did the math on my original post wrong. Will be +10 at 3HD forgot to add in the size bonus.
BAB 1 Dex 7 Size +1 to hit = 9
BAB 1 Dex 7 Size -1 CMB = 7

After looking at my hunter plan for PFSP. I changed a few things this is what I would recommend for the animal companion.
Feet's (No Int upgrade required.)
1HD: Weapon Finesse
3HD: Extra Item Slot Headband
5HD: Power Attack (Dose not qualify for it until now due to Str increases from being animal companion.)
7HD: Toughness
9HD:

Hunter teamwork feet's to look at.
Look Out
Improved Spell Sharing
Tandem Trip
Escape Route
Swap Places, and Improved Swap Places

Grand Lodge

Mine isn't an optimal build (it's pretty straight forward actually), but I'm having a lot of fun with it, unless I'm fighting an ooze, which is rough

Sword and Board Melee Hunter with Ape Companion (Hunter 6/UC Rogue2)
Pack Tactics, Precise Strike, Wpn Prof Falcata, Keen Weapon, and a mass of strength.

My AC is pretty solid (28 on the hunter, 26 on the AC (until next level). Due to pack flanking, I get sneak attack damage on practically everything I fight unless it is immune. Crits happen fairly regularly and they drop ~55 damage each; AC drops about 15-20 damage a hit. We both have about a +15 hit bonus (amusingly, the hunter has only one attack/round, it's not great, buuuuut...). I've got 70+ skill points and excel at darn near everything, including dealing with traps. High reflex + evasion means I ignore a lot of incoming damage.

Teamwork feat Escape Route plus ranger tricks lets my AC get in there and either avoid getting hit due to reach or take reduced damage, which allows the hunter to move up without provoking. This also means I can reposition and take advantage of the flanking bonuses without risking AoOs. I plan on taking 2 more levels of hunter then 2 levels of rogue for the debilitating bonus, 3rd level spells, boosted animal focus, and drop all my feats into cranking up my sneak attack damage to 5d6.


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Most brutal hunter build I ever came up with was a Halfling hunter, built to be mounted. Wild Child Brawler Dip so you don't have to waste points in Int, unless you roll stats and can afford it.

Take a wolf for the first 3 levels, as it has a free trip on the bite, and starts medium to ride.

After level 4, you change to a small cat advanced to medium size, so still riding.

Mount gets Bodyguard archetype, so he gets those feats without the Int problem.

Have Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse on pet to start, Bodyguard later.

Expertise and Pack Flanking, OutFlank, Lookout, and Escape Route by level 5.

AC has 5+ AoOs/round. You get +4 AC if they swing at you. You can move anywhere while mounted, with no AoO's for you and mount because of Escape Route. You count as flanking while mounted, with Pack Flanking, which bumps all attacks for you and mount by +4 while you are mounted.

This combined with a good Acrobatics makes Expertise to bump AC viable, as the bonuses you have from the teamwork make it all worthwhile.

Bodyguard gets to always act in surprise round, so you both always act regardless of perception, and most of the time (wis based caster with perception bonuses) you should get a full round in surprise rounds from Lookout.

Later, take Tandem Trip so that AC gets to roll twice and take better for the free trip on a bite, with all the teamwork stacks you should have a decent shot for as long as grounded opponents matter.

You can switch to a Roc later when flying becomes necessary, and everything still works.

You will want Imp Share Spells teamwork feat later since Bodyguard gives that up, and then buffing takes less time since you share the duration to both of you with a single casting.

Pet stays medium for land based, so never have the problems with squeezing mounts are notorious for.

Silver Crusade

Another good option is to go with a bear. They require no special equipment. With just eye for talent, and your animal focus. The starting Str is 19, and by level 4 Str 24. They just don't have any special attack or nice higher level ability. For pure damage with out gear they are one of the best.


I think bear is best at first level and really low end but other stuff at 7 and higher does not end up as nice. If the bear takes power attack for its first feat you can end up with 17 strength bear that has +5 damage modifier even if it is not the biggest die with 3 attacks as a full attack action.

The bear also gets scent but not sure how useful it will be as not sure if different gms use it differently. I think lookout and scent with fairie fire could save a party and be a crowning moment of awesome. You can also give yourself scent with animal focus and spent move action to locate and farie fire.

I think lookout on hunter will if the party doesn't get all perception you get your wisdom bonus plus class skill on perception with a ton of skill points. So if someone made stealth checks to try to ambush the party.

Although you may need to focus on which spells starting out at level 1 as you only get 2.

Since fairie fire has no save a wand of fairie fire might be useful at 1 minute a level 10 rounds is enough for most combats.

Although gms can use this too.

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