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This might be the first Netflix Marvel series I give a pass. Punisher has never interested me. He's basically a common thug who just happens to target criminals, I've never understood the appeal.
The Punisher is interesting as a guest star / villain, which is how he got his start in Amazing Spider-Man #129. But as a protagonist he's never interested me. He's a serial killer who kills criminals.
He's a borderline sociopath and yet there's a huge contingent of fanboys who look up to Frank Castle as the personal embodiment of their macho revenge / vigilante fantasies.
One of the best parts of SERENITY was the Operative's speech to Mal. He does horrible things and KNOWS that he has no place in the utopia that he's trying to create but he believes so completely in that Utopia that he'll pretty much do anything to protect it. Now the foundation of that belief gets questioned later on in the film but his declaration of not trying to justify his monstrous behavior is what I admire the most about the character and one of the reasons why I'm not a fan of Frank Castle or why I cant take his hardcore fans seriously. AT. ALL.
He's not some unsung hero. He's not trying to protect people. Or fighting for some greater cause. He's not trying to stop crime so that people dont get hurt.
He just likes murdering criminals.
Wut.
I have never been a huge fan of punisher either however I think that there is room for more then just a serial killer in the punisher. And Netflix has done a great job with the other marvel charaters I don't want to discount it out of hand.
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Stepping into hostile territory here... but the Punisher has a great deal of potential if done right, and forms an important part of the moral world of superhero-ing.
Done right he is not a 'common thug' or just someone who likes 'murdering criminals'... he's an extension of moral absolutism given literal flesh. The unwavering belief that people who cross the line deserve to be 'punished' and an unwillingness to compromise regardless the circumstances.
The contrast of that against a more morally grounded character like Daredevil has the nugget of a great empathic piece within it. Whether Punisher works as a standalone series is another thing entirely though.
Comic writer Chuck Dixon once did a run on the Punisher. He is on record as saying that, at the time, he didn't know that he was writing a villain protagonist.
I'm not particularly interested in a Punisher series myself, but if it is to happen, then Frank needs a foil who is as incorruptible as he himself is.
Vendor - Fantasiapelit Tampere
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Eh, It's Marvel Netflix series so it most likely will be good and I will watch it, but Punisher as a character is not very appealing to me, least of all as a main protagonist. I like Daredevil and Batman and other more dark superheroes for the fact that they constantly walk the line between killing and letting their foes live. Punisher just kills all his enemies, or tortures them and then kills them. That is not nearly as interesting, because then most of the problems can be solved via lethal violence.
Punisher ain't a hero, he's a villain like all the other murderous supervillains and gangsters. Just because he kills mafia members does not make him a saint. One point I remember actually liking Punisher was when he appeared in Spider-Man comics fro the first time and during Civil War.
Now, a Moonknight series on the other hand....
Garth Ennis did some good work with him in Long Cold Dark, Frank actually managed to display the tattered remains of his humanity.
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Punisher is not just a serial killer murdering criminals. That's Dexter.
Punisher has a Batman level obsession with justice, combined with a Judge Dredd level of sentencing criminals to death on the spot because he doesn't trust the legal system to dispense justice.
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Punisher is not just a serial killer murdering criminals. That's Dexter.
Punisher has a Batman level obsession with justice, combined with a Judge Dredd level of sentencing criminals to death on the spot because he doesn't trust the legal system to dispense justice.
So he's a serial killer with a hero complex.
Moonknight will be way better. In every way.
Yeah I would much rather see MoonKnight than Punisher. Although I am perfectly cool with Punisher popping up in future netflix shows or other TV properties.
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So he's a serial killer with a hero complex.Punisher is not just a serial killer murdering criminals. That's Dexter.
Punisher has a Batman level obsession with justice, combined with a Judge Dredd level of sentencing criminals to death on the spot because he doesn't trust the legal system to dispense justice.
Dexter is the one who kills because he likes killing and then simply proceeds to find "acceptable" victims.
Punisher doesn't think of himself as a hero, but as a "necessary evil". He kills because he thinks that must be done to protect society, but also to satisfy his unquenchable thirst for revenge. How much he cares about actual justice varies a lot from writer to writer.
Neither character is meant to be sympathetic or admirable... They are just meant to be interesting. They might have humanizing moments and their attitude might be understandable at times, but at the end of the day, they are both murderers. Trying to present them as heroes completely misses the point, IMO.
So he's a serial killer with a hero complex.Punisher is not just a serial killer murdering criminals. That's Dexter.
Punisher has a Batman level obsession with justice, combined with a Judge Dredd level of sentencing criminals to death on the spot because he doesn't trust the legal system to dispense justice.
Dexter is the one who kills because he likes killing and then simply proceeds to find "acceptable" victims.
Punisher doesn't think of himself as a hero, but as a "necessary evil". He kills because he thinks that must be done to protect society, but also to satisfy his unquenchable thirst for revenge. How much he cares about actual justice varies a lot from writer to writer.
Right. Which makes him a serial killer who is aware what he is doing is bad, but has deluded himself into thinking his compulsion to kill is "necessary" or "justified".
Neither character is meant to be sympathetic or admirable... They are just meant to be interesting. They might have humanizing moments and their attitude might be understandable at times, but at the end of the day, they are both murderers. Trying to present them as heroes completely misses the point, IMO.
I agree...which is why I don't like the Punisher as a character, since most of what I've seen and read DOES portray him as a hero, where Dexter is unambiguously NOT.
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Right. Which makes him a serial killer who is aware what he is doing is bad, but has deluded himself into thinking his compulsion to kill is "necessary" or "justified".So he's a serial killer with a hero complex.Punisher is not just a serial killer murdering criminals. That's Dexter.
Punisher has a Batman level obsession with justice, combined with a Judge Dredd level of sentencing criminals to death on the spot because he doesn't trust the legal system to dispense justice.
Dexter is the one who kills because he likes killing and then simply proceeds to find "acceptable" victims.
Punisher doesn't think of himself as a hero, but as a "necessary evil". He kills because he thinks that must be done to protect society, but also to satisfy his unquenchable thirst for revenge. How much he cares about actual justice varies a lot from writer to writer.
Yup. Though it isn't a "compulsion" in the sense that he can't help but do it. That's closer to Dexter's case. Punisher does believe his ways are necessary and so he does it. Similar to how Dr.Doom honestly believes the world would be a much better place if he were in charge.
Their beliefs do not justify their actions, of course, but it's not what I'd call a compulsion.
Neither character is meant to be sympathetic or admirable... They are just meant to be interesting. They might have humanizing moments and their attitude might be understandable at times, but at the end of the day, they are both murderers. Trying to present them as heroes completely misses the point, IMO.I agree...which is why I don't like the Punisher as a character, since most of what I've seen and read DOES portray him as a hero, where Dexter is unambiguously NOT.
To be fair, the only reason that's the case is because comic book characters go through many different writers in many different times. Dexter, being a TV series, doesn't have nearly as many authors...
I think he can be an interesting character. There are many stories where the villain are the most compelling character and many stories where the hero does terrible stuff but doesn't get as much backlash because it's presented in a positive light...
As long as the writer keeps in mind that the Punisher is not a good person, but a vengeful man with a twisted morality, his stories can be very entertaining.
Between him and Dexter, it's difficult to tell which one is a worse person...
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Between him and Dexter, it's difficult to tell which one is a worse person...
What's interesting is, if they existed in the same universe, they would try to kill each other. The difference is, once Dexter realized Puinisher only goes after criminals, he would let Punisher go. Punisher would still kill Dexter even after he realized he goes after the same targets he does.
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Similar to how Dr.Doom honestly believes the world would be a much better place if he were in charge.
Except we have had it proven to us a few separate times that this isn't a delusion on Doom's part, but the honest truth. It's not like Frank, who's really just a jackass in his own right. The occasions where Doom has ruled, he makes wherever he's in charge a better place. Actually, pretty sure that's why Latvaria loves him so much.
I think Season 1 Dexter would escape getting shout by Frank. Dex was pretty much stabbing obvious criminals and Frank might very well think that a civie offing a pedophile is ok, but would tell Dexter to stop.
I liked how he was portrayed in Daredevil Season 2, so I'll probably give this show a look when it eventually comes out. Also, appropriate avatar for a thread necro.
What's interesting is that this is a new deal not covered by the previous Netflix/Marvel agreement - which limited them to two seasons of stuff a year - so THE PUNISHER could crop up a lot sooner than otherwise would be the case (under the previous deal we wouldn't see it until 2019 at the earliest).
Wert,
Where does that put the Runaways then since it's not a Netflix series?
Netflix and Marvel's five-show deal allowed them to only put out two seasons a year on Netflix, presumably as Netflix was concerned about the Marvel stuff overwhelming their other products. In the light of how well their non-Marvel stuff has done and the appeal of PUNISHER, that's why they might make an exception for that show.
Marvel themselves want as many eyeballs as possible on their stuff, so they have no problem having many more shows than that on the air through other channels, so SHIELD will continue with ABC, they'll keep looking at other projects with them and RUNAWAYS will do fine on Hulu.
They may also be okay with a Punisher series because they plan to combine Luke Cage + Iron Fist post defenders, and just do a "Heroes for Hire" series. That's been my suspicion this entire time on their long term plans for those properties.
That's been my theory on why there is room for Punisher.
I honestly worry a bit we are getting too many Marvel shows spread across too many channels. There already is barely any overlap between movies, netflix, and ABC, and adding two more networks into the mix isn't going to help that.
Also was really hoping for a Runaways movie, since I question the ability of Hulu to martial enough of an effects budget for the show.
also that should totally be marshal not martial. I blame too many martial vs caster threads for that mistake...
Jawa,
It's a common mistake I see on the boards.
Wert,
I was just curious since there's rumors floating around about canceling
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. at the end of this season.
It's possible they'll let it go at the end of Season 4, although the viewership has been okay and apparently it's doing reasonable business on downloads, media sales and international sales. But it's also quite expensive and they may want to replace it with something that's still Marvel but maybe cheaper.
Good catch on the HEROES FOR HIRE idea. That's quite an elegant solution, as although they're both good characters I'm not sure they have the legs to hold multi-season solo shows like DAREDEVIL and maybe JESSICA JONES can (and you could always roll Jones into a HFH series as well).
Yeah I just think ABC has no idea how to handle Super Hero shows.
I mean CW does pretty good. Why can't we get them to help?! ;)
Ratings are the big difference. THe ratings required to be a sucess on CW are just far less than those needed for a channel like ABC, especially taking in account how expensive AoS is.
Supergirl got okay ratings but not okay enough for it's budget and for the expectations of CBS. Hence why, with a cut of budget, it went to CW, where it's ratings are way better.
The great thing is that Supergirl, The Flash, Green Arrow, and Legends of Tomorrow can now all crossover at will.
Marvel's current and upcoming shows are going to be distributed across ABC, Hulu, Netflix, and Freeform, and some of these are competing channels. It's going to be really really hard to get cohesion among the MCU shows.
What is the show on Freeform?
What is the show on Freeform?
Cloak and Dagger
Jawa,
It's already almost non-existant to get MCU actors that are on film to come over.
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Stepping into hostile territory here... but the Punisher has a great deal of potential if done right, and forms an important part of the moral world of superhero-ing.
Done right he is not a 'common thug' or just someone who likes 'murdering criminals'... he's an extension of moral absolutism given literal flesh. The unwavering belief that people who cross the line deserve to be 'punished' and an unwillingness to compromise regardless the circumstances.
The contrast of that against a more morally grounded character like Daredevil has the nugget of a great empathic piece within it. Whether Punisher works as a standalone series is another thing entirely though.
Punisher was created as the essential moral inversion of Peter Parker. Both of them started out their careers in reaction to the loss of a loved one. Whereas Parker's actions are tempered by his guilt over the death of his uncle. Castle in the beginning was unfettered rage and revenge.
Not to mention one was a teenager the other a trained cop and possible Marine.
Not to mention one was a teenager the other a trained cop and possible Marine.
Those don't factor into the moral inversion I was focused on.
There's a good Marvel animated move which teams the Punisher up with Black Widow.
Don't they? I mean I thought they might since one is an adult and therefore would have the means to cope with tragedy (one assumes) versus a teenager that has no context for it (but apparently Peter does.)
The Punisher (at least the original print version) is a comic version of Mack Bolan the Executioner.
The Executioner series began in 1969, the heyday of Mafia organized criminal influence in the U.S. IIRC, this was the time of heroin and the advent of cocaine as drugs of choice.
The Punisher came into being during the 1980's cocaine and crack epidemics and non-Mafia criminal enterprises competing with the Mob. Total U.S. spending on law enforcement at this time was a minute fraction of defense spending.
Jack Reacher is a more modern incarnation of both characters.
Sitting atop the moral high ground is all fine and dandy, until you're confronted with the reality that some scumbags are willing to kill you just for your shoes, your watch, the twenty bucks in your wallet or your ride. Some scumbags are willing to kill you for your skin color, the spiritual belief system they think you adhere to or other attitudes because they can. Some will kill you just for looking at them funny or being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The worst ones engage in inflicting drug addiction, home invasions, assorted horrible assaults, mutilations, kidnappings, selling people into slavery and harvesting organs, or worse, either for money or just because they can and they like it. Or you're "other" to an intolerable degree by their reasoning.
When someone like that is in your face, what are you willing to do? How far will you go? Most cannot, suffering or dying accordingly.
The wheels of justice often move slowly while hundreds, thousands and millions suffer such depredations the world over. I'd like a Mack Bolan, Frank Castle or Jack Reacher to wipe these kinds of scumbags out. Many millions of readers would seem to agree with the sentiment.
Coping with tragedy is sometimes a lifelong process. It is different for each person. The more traumatic events change a person. Some will turtle. Some will commit suicide. Some will recover and get on with their lives, hoping that the same or similar events never happen to them again. Some will become Spider Man, many won't. A rare few will take matters into their own hands to varying degrees of success.
As far as the show goes, I hope it is done well and racks up a healthy following.
Yeah, no. This isn't about someone being "in your face". This is about systematically hunting people down and murdering them.
You don't need the moral high ground to say "Murder is bad", that's a pretty low standard.
Punisher is an adolescent revenge fantasy character, not someone who should be looked up to. Because the reality is, a person like this would do more harm than good in real life where they don't have magical bullets and explosives that never kill an innocent person in the crossfire or due to over penetration. They don't have to deal with the consequences of petty backlash from the criminals they hunt. And most of all, wouldn't have the fancy plot armor that keeps them from dying a pitiful whimpering death when they Rambo their way into a room of a dozen armed men.
Even without these, the character makes no difference. Crime will exist no matter how many petty thugs you oh so righteously plug. Because crime is caused by underlying social strife. You kill a thief, and miss three more. You gank a murderer, and others walk free. You don't solve crime by murdering the s@%! out of everyone. If it was that easy, soneone would have done it by now.
The character can be entertaining, but saying he can or "should" exist any more thsn Spiderman is just silly.
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Hunting down those who prey on the innocent is normally the task of law enforcement. When such predators are shielded by the very laws that are supposed to deal with them, or by corruption of/within the 'system', there is going to arise expressions of frustration with that state. Such characters are one such expression, and the safest one at that.
When monsters are eating/killing your family and friends, you kill the monsters. Those that take lives for profit and/or amusement (or other twisted motivations) forfeit their right to live when doing so.
If they're an adolescent revenge fantasy, then so is almost every campaign we play in Pathfinder.