PTBC - Winter Witch


Tales

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

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I have to start by saying that I apologize for waiting a whole year to finally get to this novel. I have read every Elaine Cunningham novel from the Forgotten Realms, a campaign I never thought I would ever leave until 4th edition fast forwarded a century and essentially killed all of my characters, but I’m not bitter because that’s why I switched sides and went to Pathfinder! Anyway, just as she did with her Harpers novels, she has delivered again.

Like we had touched upon in Skinwalkers, the Ulfen culture really comes to life right away in this story. I loved the whole mental process Ellasif was going through with the birth of her sister amidst a terrible battle, especially the line about her father: “At the sight of his empty hands, Ellasif knew fear. Her father had left his place. He’d put aside his axe before battle’s end.” If that doesn’t define a warrior’s culture, I don’t know what does.

Then came the surprising fifteen year time shift that I wasn’t expecting at all! I was prepared for her to struggle rebuilding White Rook while having to raise her sister alone in a cold, unforgiving, hostile land trying to conceal the phenomenon surrounding her birth. But then we get yanked out of that scene like a bad dream and now we’re in…Korvosa? [From playing Rise of the Runelords (and other reasons) I’m on Team Magnimar, and as a sports fan I’m conditioned to hate my in-state rivals, so this whole Team Korvosa transition put a bad taste in my mouth at first, then Elaine sold me on the pseudodragon familiars and that all went away.]

Anyway, now we have a change in protagonist as well. Declan is definitely interesting and I’m curious as to where this is going, considering he’s basically the opposite of Ellasif. Gender aside, he’s a wizard and she’s a warrior, he’s from a bustling city and she’s from a remote village, he’s distanced from his family and she’s only concerned with hers. It’s a wholesale contrast, and an ambitious one trying to get them to fit in the same story together, although I have no doubt it’ll be brilliant. For the first few chapters I kept thinking to myself: what could these two completely different characters from completely different backgrounds possibly have in common that brings them together, but as I read on it became apparent, and I’m honestly not sure how I feel about it just yet. Clearly Ellasif didn’t travel all the way here just to make a friend, so she obviously has a motive for involving Declan in her plans, and it seems to be specifically him, not just any random wizard that she could’ve picked up in Korvosa. Perhaps they’re related in some way, as Declan mentioned his mother was from the north and that he knew little else about where she was from. But why would Ellasif know anything about that? I guess I just have to read more…


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Darkborn wrote:
I have to start by saying that I apologize for waiting a whole year to finally get to this novel. I have read every Elaine Cunningham novel from the Forgotten Realms, a campaign I never thought I would ever leave until 4th edition fast forwarded a century and essentially killed all of my characters, but I’m not bitter because that’s why I switched sides and went to Pathfinder! Anyway, just as she did with her Harpers novels, she has delivered again.

I too was feeling kind of bad that we took so long to get to this after Laine suggested it last year. I actually read this some time ago because I found it in a half-price bookstore and remembered said suggestion, so I'm happy to finally get to it! Out of curiosity, DB (and any others who have read her FR series), what's appealed about her writing/characters in the past? I personally have this very strong love/hate relationship with FR material, so I know both a great deal and relatively very little...

Darkborn wrote:
Like we had touched upon in Skinwalkers, the Ulfen culture really comes to life right away in this story.

I also enjoyed the Ulfen border-village. Previously it had been rather hard for me to believe/conceptualize how it was that Irrisen hadn't managed to simply overwhelm the neighboring kingdoms, but this is the most perfect way to showcase the explanation; NONE of the Ulfen villagers have NPC levels. hah! it WOULD be pretty tough to try and take a neighboring territory if all you have to work with are low-int monsters while they have a horde of barbarians and shaman.

On a similar note to DB, the jump to another time period was surprising. Also, the jump to Declan. Of the two I feel that I enjoy Ellasif more, though Declan's chapters have more interesting stuff going on (so far, at least). It's funny too, because they're both basically trying to find out about family members, both have (essentially) no other relatives, and no real friends or connections to the place they come from. For all that you noted, DB, they're opposites on many conventional levels (like gender, class, prime stat, and maybe even alignment), they are less opposites and more just like reflections of each other.

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

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xeose4 wrote:
I too was feeling kind of bad that we took so long to get to this after Laine suggested it last year. I actually read this some time ago because I found it in a half-price bookstore and remembered said suggestion, so I'm happy to finally get to it! Out of curiosity, DB (and any others who have read her FR series), what's appealed about her writing/characters in the past? I personally have this very strong love/hate relationship with FR material, so I know both a great deal and relatively very little...

Her novels and short stories featuring Arilyn Moonblade were some of my favorites from the vast FR collection. I remember trading off GM responsibilities with my friend who had introduced me to D&D about 25 years ago, and we found ourselves caught up with the Harpers at Twilight organization for a good period of time. Adding depth to our adventures by reading the Harpers novels is what really gave me immersive experience that I still carry on with today with Pathfinder. Her stories especially intrigued me because they were my first glimpse of the elven culture up close, and also one of the first featuring a female protagonist, which was far less common back then. I guess I identified with her dichotomy as a character, torn between her racial heritage and her homeland, not feeling like she belonged with either, and how those two facets worked their way through just about everything in her life. She was assassin, but also a hero, consorted with criminals, but rubbed shoulders with nobility; and through it all struggled to be worthy to wield an heirloom artifact that served as the ultimate judge of her actions, more than anyone else in her life, including herself. Out of all the Harpers novels, these resonated the most with me, as Elaine Cunningham succeeded in providing an engrossing character study with an epic adventure without losing sight of either, which is no small task.

xeose4 wrote:
I also enjoyed the Ulfen border-village. Previously it had been rather hard for me to believe/conceptualize how it was that Irrisen hadn't managed to simply overwhelm the neighboring kingdoms, but this is the most perfect way to showcase the explanation; NONE of the Ulfen villagers have NPC levels. hah! it WOULD be pretty tough to try and take a neighboring territory if all you have to work with are low-int monsters while they have a horde of barbarians and shaman.

This was one of the best introductions to a novel I have read to date. It grabs you from the first page and doesn’t let go. A lot of things can happen in a battle like the one that took place in White Rook, but giving birth isn’t someone you expect. I liked this take on the Ulfen people because it showed a different side to their culture than in Skinwalkers, which featured more of their seafaring traditions. These are a battle-born people whose lives are in constant peril [definitely no NPC classes here, haha, I totally agree] and I also thought it’ was a marvel that Irrisen hasn’t overrun them, but after finishing the prologue it’s clear that the winter witches have tried, but suffered enough losses to make it not worth the time and resources just to gain another small expanse of a harsh land. If they were bolder to join the fray themselves things might be different, but they rightfully keep their distance because one good throw could easily be the end of them out here.

xeose4 wrote:
On a similar note to DB, the jump to another time period was surprising. Also, the jump to Declan. Of the two I feel that I enjoy Ellasif more, though Declan's chapters have more interesting stuff going on (so far, at least). It's funny too, because they're both basically trying to find out about family members, both have (essentially) no other relatives, and no real friends or connections to the place they come from. For all that you noted, DB, they're opposites on many conventional levels (like gender, class, prime stat, and maybe even alignment), they are less opposites and more just like reflections of each other.

Absolutely. The compare and contrast between them would be lengthy on both sides, and that makes them a great pair of protagonists, especially because in a way they’re also antagonists to each other! I still can’t tell if they’re going to hook up or throw down, maybe both and not in that order. I’m really looking forward to the post this weekend, lots to cover…


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So we learned a lot of stuff in this next part of the book!

The caravan setting off from Korvosa has brought Declan and Ellasif togther... and I honestly don't know what to make of their interactions. On the one hand, we see that Ellasif views Declan with quite a bit of contempt, both for his magical inclinations and for his general ham-handedness when it comes to interacting with others. To be fair, I might be reading into it a bit too much, simply because I always get irritated when reading about two men peacocking at each other because a woman is watching, but the fact that Ellasif knows this and then is still... pretty okay with Declan "claiming" her... I don't get it. Regardless, some chemistry is happening between the two and we can see Declan turning more from Silvana to instead start viewing Ellasif as something more than just an ominous bodyguard. We also see the mystery of Silvana deepen as well. I'm curious to other people's thoughts on this budding romance... does this seem to have potential? Or does it feel shallow of Declan to abandon Silvana so quickly?

Another major mystery that starts to take shape is Declan's powers; it's clear he's not practicing any valid form of wizardry anymore, nor is he manifesting sorcerous divination powers. Instead, it's something completely outside the system and feels almost god-like in ability. He can conjure images of people and things he's never seen, can reshape the landscape from miles away, and yet doesn't even have an inkling of what might be going on. In terms of Pathfinder Tales characters we've read so far, he is easily the most power, and by a fairly large margin, if only because his powers seem to operate completely outside the game system. This is one reason I wanted to get to this book after reading it; what does this do for you guys? From a reader perspective, I mean. Other tales will have some loose parts, but as a whole they tend to adhere more to the system than less. This doesn't even have an analogue. So I really am curious; does it draw you guys in, or is it just a puzzle that feels out of place?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Darkborn wrote:
Her novels and short stories featuring Arilyn Moonblade were some of my favorites from the vast FR collection.

That's some praise! And heartening to hear. I will definitely pick them up if I see them around - and I don't think that enough can be said about the dearth of female protagonists from that era (much less ones that operate as more than just lusty male fantasies). I also agree that opening with Ellasif helping her mother give birth in the middle of an intense, otherworldly battle is far and away an excellent start to a novel...

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

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Chapters Eight to Fourteen did reveal a lot more about Ellasif and Declan, her ulterior motives and his unique magical abilities, but how those things will play out with or against one another is still up in the air.

Starting with Ellasif, my early thoughts about her were that she somehow trailed her sister to Korvosa, and the Silvana was actually Liv who had changed her name to hide from anyone - even Ellasif - believing it was safer for everyone if she remained far from White Rook and the clutches of the jadwiga and their minions. But then after the abductions with the strange icy teleportation spells took Silvana, Ellasif started using Declan to get back to her since he was invested in doing the same. I was more convinced when Elasif asked him to draw Liv, but then he was distracted, and then when she asked him to draow Silvana he couldn't. But given how straight-forward Ellasif has shown herself to be, if she really suspected that Liv and Silvana where one and the same I would've expected her to have pushed him harder instead of telling him to rest and try again tomorrow, so that was my first doubt that my prediction was off. Then I got to the scene with Mareshka and the offer for Ellasif to trade Declan for her sister and my theory started to literally lose integrity as it made Ellasif seem a lot colder. I understand she's desperate to get her sister back, but to trade his life for hers just doesn't sit right with me.

Anyway, that brings me to Declan, and the interesting powers that he has to create reality through his art. It's quite fascinating, and would make an interesting archetype that uses Craft instead of Spellcraft with arcane magic, if that's what he's doing. Or perhaps he doesn't know it, but his sketchbook could be a powerful magic item that has those effects. Regardless, he is indeed very powerful and it makes sense why Mareshka is so willing to trade for him. We don’t know what Liv can do yet at this point in the novel, but trading her seems like a steal for Declan, and although we don’t know the origin or extent of his abilities either, the mystery behind it all is intriguing. It may not adhere to the game mechanics as we understand them, which can be troubling depending on how it’s handled, but in this case I think it works for this story. Who knows, maybe something will be developed based on his abilities somewhere down the line; it wouldn’t be the first time something in the game was realized from related works, which was done from FR novels and such.

What I’m really wondering about is how Mareshka knows about him and his abilities at all? If Silvana is not actually Liv like I thought, was she sent to spy on him? Perhaps she wasn't whisked away and actually used the same magic to return home, thus impelling Declan to come "rescue" her and deliver himself to Irrisen as a failsafe in case Ellasif failed in doing so herself. I had also though Skywing could be such an agent, as he was the first to mention Mareshka, but after he attacked her that ruled that out as well. So if he's not her familiar, maybe he actually does belong to Declan even though he doesn't believe it himself. Or maybe Skywing serves someone who we haven't really met yet, like Liv? Perhaps she's trying to free herself from Mareshka as to not endanger her sister or sacrifice Declan for her freedom.

So much has happened, yet it feels like there's so much still to come.

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

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Winter Witch has been a very fitting read, as I all but finished it being snowed in over weekend. But was we're wrapping it up soon, we need to decide what's next. I have a few in mind that I'd like to get to eventually, but I'm open to anything right now. Any suggestions?

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

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The last chapters were exactly what I wanted. Everything came together just right to make their flight from Whitethrone happen. I really liked the scene in the Howlings where Declan made a nice Bluff check against the winter wolves. Does anyone think the anthropomorphic one was lycanthropic? That would be an amazing hybrid to build in the game, if it were possible to use a magical beast instead of an animal. But it makes me want to play a witchwolf skinwalker even more than before!

As final battles go, this one was memorable, to say the least. A single Winter Witch faced off against a party of five and almost took them all out! Awhile back my ex wanted to play a winter witch - archetype AND prestige class - but it just didn't fit the game we were playing, but that would've been cool to see how that developed. (Apologies for the pun.) They are extremely powerful at high levels, and we definitely saw that here. Fortunately for our heroes, Elaine isn't shy with epic magic items and they had a little help from an intelligent sword against the wielder of an artifact staff, or so I believe. [That totally brought back memories of classic sword and sorcery from my teenage years...in one of the first high-level campaigns I ever played in one of my fellow players had an Intelligent Dancing Vorpal Longsword and got dominated by a demon lord, but before he could kill us all with it one of the other players broke his Staff of the Magi, killing both of them and the demon lord in the process to save the campaign!]

Anyway...a lot ran through my head after Mareshka was slain. At one point I had considered that maybe Mareshka was Declan's mother who he only knew was from the north, and that maybe her identity as a winter witch was discovered which was why she had to fake her death and leave him behind. But good thing that wasn't the case because poor Declan would've been even more mortified if he had a crush on a woman that was actually his mother, haha. How awful! But still, the way it turned out was sad enough. As far as we know, Silvana was his first romantic interest as a young man, and it's almost worse than if she had died because she never really existed. Not only is she gone forever, but all memories of her are tainted. He can't even reflect back upon her fondly as he would have if she had been real and had passed away. He expectedly had a lot of mixed feelings about the whole Silvana/Mareshka/Pernilla ordeal, as that was a lot to absorb in one day, especially after such an arduous journey. I feel sorry for him actually, and although I didn't really know what to make of the denouement, regarding his continued companionship with Ellasif, I guess I don't really have any qualms about him forgiving her considering all he's been through. Sure, in the end they were there for each other and now Declan fully understands why Ellasif did what she did, but still...that was rough. Desperate times may call for desperate measures, but if Ellasif had no other options I think she would've gone through with her deal with Mareshka and over Declan for Liv without hesitation. I suppose Declan is a better man than I, if he could forgive her for all that, but in the end they both lost people they loved and in a way they're all they have left.

Well...it's been a while since this novel was released, but I sincerely hope Elaine is planning to write more Pathfinder Tales - continuing these characters or creating entirely new ones - as it's always been a pleasure to read her stories.

Dark Archive Contributor

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I’m delighted you liked the conclusion of Winter Witch. I encouraged Elaine to pop in on this thread, but she suggested that I leave a comment.

As some already know, Elaine couldn't complete the book because of a year of family emergencies. To ensure that Pathfinder Tales launched on time, Paizo moved Prince of Wolves up to the August slot and consulted Elaine about enlisting a co-author for Winter Witch. She agreed that I'd finish the manuscript.

Elaine created most of the characters and plot of the novel. She wrote that fantastic prologue and the first nine chapters. I revised those chapters to address editorial feedback and to get a feeling for her style. (I like to tell her I did the job to absorb her powers.) Rather than try to mimic her exactly, I tried “leaning” toward her style. I'm delighted that no one has ever noticed the change point and many don't realize there were two writers.

Chapters 10 and beyond are my work based on Elaine's outline, which I altered in response to editorial feedback. My changes began with matching the book to the setting, but I also combined a few characters into one (Mareshka), added a few more monstrous adversaries, and kept Olenka in the story longer. There were lots of other changes, but those stand out in memory.

A couple of my changes were choices Elaine wouldn’t have made. She still teases me about making it more of a “kissing book,” and I’m sorry to have made one of her favorite characters more brutal than she’d envisioned her. (Elaine usually has the darker imagination, but I have my moments.)

A while after she recovered from the very bad horrible year, Elaine and I often chatted about continuing the story of Declan and Ellasif with an “on-purpose” collaboration, perhaps one in which Radovan and the Count played supporting roles. We even sketched out a few outlines. Unfortunately, we did this simultaneously and took the characters in different directions.

In the end we realized we both like to lead too much to collaborate. There were never any quarrels, just a gradual realization that we’re better off supporting each other with manuscript critiques, gossip, and awful puns.

So while some of the character issues you've mentioned have indeed swirled in my imagination and Elaine's, I'm doubtful we'll ever get to explore them beyond our occasional "what if?" chats. If a continuance of Winter Witch ever appears, it’ll be by Elaine alone, and I’ll be the first to read it.

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

Dave - thank you for your comment, it's an honor to have you with us!

What you said explains a lot, and you did a great job making the transition from Chapter 10 on seem seamless. Also, I'm not sure I agree with Elaine teasing you about making it more of a "kissing book" because that wasn't what it felt like with that one short moment with Ellsaif, and Declan never actually got to that point with Silvana so I have your back on that one.

It's kinda funny, my plan was to give it until the end of the weekend for anyone to make suggestions for our next read, then refer to the afterword where Elaine mentioned your contribution to use as a segue into your novels. We've had a few requests for you in the past, but perhaps your comment is the sign we were waiting for to finally get started!

So...will anyone second that motion?

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

Okay, it's been two weeks...

Perhaps beginning Dave's collection is too daunting for right now, so let's revisit the this later, maybe this summer when we'll likely have more free time on our hands. Of course we don't have to go through it all at once, but if we did the schedule could be shortened to a novel every two weeks instead of every three, and with the six ePubs added in we should be able to get through it in four months.

Anyway, if we're is ready to continue I have a few titles I still have on my agenda:

The first option is the recently released Bloodbound by F. Wesley Schneider, who I also promised at GenCon would get the spotlight this year. The second option is going back to a suggestion that was posted shortly after the PTBC was conceived for The Worldwound Gambit by Robin D. Laws, which I regret we haven't got to yet. The third option is going back to revisit some authors we've already featured who have new novels out, such as Liar's Blade and Liar's Island by Tim Pratt, Pirate's Prophecy by Chris A. Jackson, or Beyond the Pool of Stars by Howard Andrew Jones.

Thoughts?

Scarab Sages

Honestly, I've been staying out of the thread since I already wrote a review and it's been awhile since I read Winter Witch. I totally missed the motion for next novel.

That said, I'm game for any of them. Pool of Stars could be fun. Bloodbound is a good read, and Worldwound Gambit is fun just for the departure of story style. I'm happy to go with whatever you'd like to read Darkborn.

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

Belabras wrote:
Honestly, I've been staying out of the thread since I already wrote a review and it's been awhile since I read Winter Witch. I totally missed the motion for next novel.

Okay, thanks Belabras. Also, which novel did you write a review for? If it's one we've already covered I'd like to check it out.

Belabras wrote:
That said, I'm game for any of them. Pool of Stars could be fun. Bloodbound is a good read, and Worldwound Gambit is fun just for the departure of story style. I'm happy to go with whatever you'd like to read Darkborn.

Regarding The Worldwound Gambit, I'm not sure what you mean by "departure of story", is there any way you can clarify that without spoilers?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

worldwound gambit has a different narrative style than many of the other pathfinder books.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

on the other hand, it would be interesting to follow this book that (to my surprise) Dave Gross part-wrote with the rest of his Pathfinder Tales.

Scarab Sages

Darkborn wrote:
Belabras wrote:
Honestly, I've been staying out of the thread since I already wrote a review and it's been awhile since I read Winter Witch. I totally missed the motion for next novel.

Okay, thanks Belabras. Also, which novel did you write a review for? If it's one we've already covered I'd like to check it out.

Belabras = Jeremy Corff. I've read and reviewed all the novels. All the web fiction and pathfinder journals too, though I haven't reviewed them all.

And xeose4 has the right of it. WWG, being a heist caper, is a different kind of story from the other books. I liked it, but thought Blood of the City was a better book from Laws.

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

I'm thoroughly intrigued, so let's go with Robin D. Laws for next weekend's discussion. It looks like the correct order to read everything chronologically is The Worldwound Gambit > The Ironroot Deception > In the Event of My Untimely Demise > Blood of the City (Thank you Itchy!)
I'll have the new thread posted for The Worldwound Gambit on Saturday.

Scarab Sages

Ironroot comes first. Otherwise yes.

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

Oh okay, then Ironnroot Deception for this Saturday, thanks!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Robin Laws also wrote a 6-part adventure with Gan's team in the Wrath of the Rigtheous that is more or less the finish to the ID and WG - if you guys can get your hands on that...

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

xeose4 wrote:
Robin Laws also wrote a 6-part adventure with Gan's team in the Wrath of the Rigtheous that is more or less the finish to the ID and WG - if you guys can get your hands on that...

Really? That sounds awesome, let's try to do that!

Liberty's Edge

Darkborn wrote:
The last chapters were exactly what I wanted. Everything came together just right to make their flight from Whitethrone happen. I really liked the scene in the Howlings where Declan made a nice Bluff check against the winter wolves. Does anyone think the anthropomorphic one was lycanthropic? That would be an amazing hybrid to build in the game, if it were possible to use a magical beast instead of an animal. But it makes me want to play a witchwolf skinwalker even more than before!

Off-topic: There are apparently just Winter Wolves who can assume human form. Rules can be found in Adventure Path Volume #68 (the second chapter of Reign of Winter). They're pretty much ordinary Winter Wolves except for the shapeshifting.

On topic: I read this book a while ago and enjoyed it a lot (I liked both main characters, which is always a plus). I, too, was unaware Dave Gross wrote part of it. Interesting.

A sequel would be nice, though it never seemed the sort of book that strongly demanded one to me.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Off-topic: There are apparently just Winter Wolves who can assume human form. Rules can be found in Adventure Path Volume #68 (the second chapter of Reign of Winter). They're pretty much ordinary Winter Wolves except for the shapeshifting.

It's the location. Baba Yaga created a permanent magical effect allowing Winter Wolves to assume human form within the bounds of the city. It was part of the deal she made with them to get them to join her army when she took control of the region in the first place.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
CBDunkerson wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Off-topic: There are apparently just Winter Wolves who can assume human form. Rules can be found in Adventure Path Volume #68 (the second chapter of Reign of Winter). They're pretty much ordinary Winter Wolves except for the shapeshifting.
It's the location. Baba Yaga created a permanent magical effect allowing Winter Wolves to assume human form within the bounds of the city. It was part of the deal she made with them to get them to join her army when she took control of the region in the first place.

Isn't there an amulet that allows them to take human shape for a few hours? I thought I saw that listed somewhere, although I might be confusing a 3.5 amulet...

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

CBDunkerson wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Off-topic: There are apparently just Winter Wolves who can assume human form. Rules can be found in Adventure Path Volume #68 (the second chapter of Reign of Winter). They're pretty much ordinary Winter Wolves except for the shapeshifting.
It's the location. Baba Yaga created a permanent magical effect allowing Winter Wolves to assume human form within the bounds of the city. It was part of the deal she made with them to get them to join her army when she took control of the region in the first place.

Ah, that's awesome, thanks for the info!

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

Thanks for waiting everyone, and thanks again to Dave Gross for posting in lieu of Elaine Cunningham for Winter Witch.

Moving on...today we start the discussion about the Ironroot Deception ePub by Robin D. Laws, which will be followed by:

The Worldwound Gambut

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