Multiple attacks and invisibility

[Nightfiend]

I have a quandary. I have a character in my game who has successfully attacked an invisible target using shield bash. Normally her shield slam feat allows her to also hit with a free bull rush attack using her previous to hit as her CMB. Would the free bull rush also have a 50% miss chance do to the invisibility? Assuming the bull rush is successful, she also has the spiked destroyer feat, which allows her to automatically make an attack roll with her armor spikes. Would that attack also have a 50% miss chance?

Shield Slam:

In the right position, your shield can be used to send opponents flying.

Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash,Shield Proficiency, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.

Spiked Destroyer:

You can attack with your armor spikes while using bull rush or overrun.

Prerequisite: Proficient in spiked armor.

Benefit: When you succeed at a bull rush or overrun combat maneuver, you may automatically make an attack roll with your armor spikes against the target of the maneuver as a swift action, using your highest attack bonus.

[PrinceDogWaterIII]

If the target is invisible you have 50 percent miss chance.

[bigrig107]

Pretty sure the Shield Slam bull rush attempt wouldn't have the miss chance, as she's already hit the target, it's just a rider to the attack.

Spiked Destroyer, however, would have the miss chance, as it's a separate attack roll.

[dragonhunterq]

The bull rush from shield slam is essentially a rider effect that uses the same attack roll (it doesn't grant you a new attack roll) as your initial attack. It is not a separate attack. I would not give that a miss chance.

Spiked destroyer grants you a separate attack with it's own attack roll and would be subject to the 50% miss chance.

[GM Nightfiend]

That's what I though. I believe anything that has a specific attack roll should be subject to the 50% miss chance. That being said the language in shield slam states,

Benefit: Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.

The fact that it states "also hits" leads me to believe the hit wouldn't be subject, but the part that states "substituting your attack roll for your CMB" leads me to think that the attack isn't guaranteed and could miss.

[GM Nightfiend]

I appreciate the input, it helps me get my head around the combo and the affects that invisibility will have on it.

[dragonhunterq]

oddly, the "substituting your attack roll" is the part that convinces me it's a rider effect.

If you rolled again for the bull rush (whether using the same attack bonus or your CMB) I would not hesitate to impose the miss chance.

[Scott Wilhelm]

This is a little off-topic, but what if the attacker with Shield Slam were the Invisible one?

Lets say the Invisible Shield Basher had Shield Slam, Greater Bull Rush, and Paired Opportunist.

I'm thinking he would make his first attack against a Flatfooted AC.

Simultaneous with this is the Bull Rush, and the target does not get to add his Dex to his CMD.

With Greater Bull Rush, it's Attacks of Opportunity all around for all his Allies. Since AoOs pre-empt their triggers, the AoO goes off while the victim is still Invisible.

Since the invisible shield basher has Paired Opportunist, he gets an AoO, too, also still Invisibly, because AoO.

That looks right, but it feels sooooo wrong!

[KainPen]

only if he has improved invisibility, invisible negates as soon as you make an attack. as others stated they would rule that the shield bash/bullrush is caused by the single attack so the CMD would be denined his dex also. but any attacks after that including AOO the target would have use of their dex. unless the attacker is under improved invisibility or similar effect.

aoo happen out side of normal time frame of attacks but still with in a time frame while the bullrush seems one attack. Same thing applies to sneak attack and invisibility you only get it on the 1st attack

[DM_Blake]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

That looks right, but it feels sooooo wrong!

You din't take this circular logic far enough.

Imagine you bullrush a summoned monster and you hit. Now you knock it back.

With Greater Bull Rush, it's Attacks of Opportunity all around for all his Allies. Since AoOs preempt their triggers, all those AoOs go off before you actually bullrush it.

They kill it and it disappears because it was summoned - all before you bullrush it.

Now the question is, if it disappears before you bullrush it, what did you ACTUALLY bullrush? And if there was nothing to bullrish, what did you knock back? And if there was nothing to knock back, how did knocking back nothing trigger those AoOs? And if there were no AoOs, how did it die? And if it didn't die, then there was something for you to bullrush. And if ...

Round and round we go.

[Scott Wilhelm]

KainPen wrote:

only if he has improved invisibility, invisible negates as soon as you make an attack. as others stated they would rule that the shield bash/bullrush is caused by the single attack so the CMD would be denined his dex also. but any attacks after that including AOO the target would have use of their dex. unless the attacker is under improved invisibility or similar effect.

aoo happen out side of normal time frame of attacks but still with in a time frame while the bullrush seems one attack. Same thing applies to sneak attack and invisibility you only get it on the 1st attack

But Attacks of Opportunity DON'T happen after that! If anything, it is the attacks of opportunity that come first! Attacks of Opportunity pre-empt their triggers. This is why when you use Greater Trip, you don't get the +4 bonus for your victim being Prone: the AoO happens first, and the victim isn't Prone yet. And it's the reason why you don't get to re-trip your opponent as your attack of opportunity when he gets up: the AoO happens first, so the victim is still Prone. You can't make someone Prone when they are Prone already.

Making an Attack of Opportunity wrote:

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

If you are insisting that only one stage (for lack of a better word) of the attack sequence would benefit from Invisibility, then the sequence would happen like this:

1) The Invisible Attacker gets an attack of opportunity, which was triggered by his allies getting attacks of oportunity via Paired Opportunist.

2) His Allies get an attack of opportunity, which was triggered by Greater Bull Rush.

3) The invisible attacker makes a Shield Bash Attack and simultaneous Bull Rush,

4) which now, according to you, is no longer against an invisible opponent, and could now retroactively cause the target's AC to go up and pre-emptively end the entire sequence.

5) but then if those Attacks of Opportunity never happened, the Attacker WAS Invisible, so the initial attack hits after all!