Question Regarding the Grenadier Alchemist


Advice


At 4th level, if the Grenadier Alchemist selects the Explosive Missile Discovery does this mean that:

Move Action: Infuse an Arrow with an alchemical item (lets say Acid Flask)
Standard Action: Infuse same arrow with the power of his bomb

Results: Fire Arrow dealing: 1d8 + STR Bonus +1d6 Acid + 2d6+Splash to target on a hit.

Am I calculation this correctly?


Yup, and you can even substitute that acid for lamp oil and get extra damage on the cheap.

You can put those things on Marker Dye Arrows and make them as Ranged Touch Attacks. No arrow damage that way, but pretty slick.

Sovereign Court

More accurately, you would infuse the bow/crossbow/pistol with the move action bit, since you technically may not have drawn the ammo yet. And you would need the alchemical item in hand (according to a conservative read).


Drawing arrows doesn't count as an action, Alchemist Bombs are drawn, prepared, and thrown all as a Standard Action. But you have a point: drawing the Flask does take a Move Action.

A Splash Weapon is a Weapon, though. You should be able to take Quickdraw and draw your Splash Weapons as Free Actions.

Lantern Lodge

Alchemical Weapon (Su): At 2nd level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action. This action consumes the alchemical item, but transfers its effect to the weapon in question. The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets. Any extra damage added is treated like bonus dice of damage, and is not doubled on a critical hit. The alchemical treatment causes no harm to the weapon treated, and wears off 1 minute after application if no blow is struck. At 6th level, a grenadier can use her alchemical weapon ability as a swift action. At 15th level, this ability becomes a free action. This ability replaces poison resistance.

When you hit level 6, you could move to draw and swift to infuse.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Drawing arrows doesn't count as an action, Alchemist Bombs are drawn, prepared, and thrown all as a Standard Action. But you have a point: drawing the Flask does take a Move Action.

A Splash Weapon is a Weapon, though. You should be able to take Quickdraw and draw your Splash Weapons as Free Actions.

actually Quick Draw Feat specifies not alchemical items..

at the time that prevented alchemical weapons.

These days its abit fuzzy though. ALchemical items could refer to any item by craft alchemical. or it could refer to any of the 4 subcategories created by Ultimate Equipment.

but for PFS I beleive its standardized as does not work. In a home game it would be entirely reasonable for a gm to allow it (and personally I think it should)


I feel like Alchemical Weapon should have the same intent as Explosive Missile almost, letting you draw and apply the item in the same action.


Alchemist class abilities take the time they say they take, with no additional time to ready components. Extracts are a standard action, not move+standard, or move or swift (with the right feats/traits), just standard actions. Similarly, bombs are standard actions (until they become "attacks" with Fast Bombs).

The Explosive Missile combo goes move action infuse, standard action load and fire explosive missile, for 1d8+Str+PBS+1d6+Int acid/fire + 2d6+Int bomb (splash 2+Int).

It's not entirely clear if Alchemical Weapon adds Int to damage; the Monster Codex version explicitly doesn't, which means A) the devs agree that the Field Guide version could reasonably be read to add Int to damage, and B) it's not intended to add Int to damage.


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I was actually looking up more about it and found an official answer from James Jacobs here.

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The easy workaround is to be a tiefling alchemist with a prehensile tail. The tail grabs flasks as a swift action, move to click it on. I've been very successful with my alchemist that way.

In the longer run, using a bow also enables you to get Seeking, in case enemies use annoying Displacement, Mirror Image or Glitterdust. Pinpoint, then just close your eyes and think of Taldor.


Zwordsman wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Drawing arrows doesn't count as an action, Alchemist Bombs are drawn, prepared, and thrown all as a Standard Action. But you have a point: drawing the Flask does take a Move Action.

A Splash Weapon is a Weapon, though. You should be able to take Quickdraw and draw your Splash Weapons as Free Actions.

actually Quick Draw Feat specifies not alchemical items..

at the time that prevented alchemical weapons.

These days its abit fuzzy though. ALchemical items could refer to any item by craft alchemical. or it could refer to any of the 4 subcategories created by Ultimate Equipment.

but for PFS I beleive its standardized as does not work. In a home game it would be entirely reasonable for a gm to allow it (and personally I think it should)

So, we'd have to have like a Tiefling Alchemist with a Prehensile Tail pulling out items as Swift Actions?


And pick up a hybridizastion funnel for added silliness - you could combine alchemist fire & acid, sneezing powder or tangleburn bags.

It also brings up the question: if "the mixture has the effects of both component substances and creatures are affected as if hit by both" do you add your +Int for the splash weapons twice?


No, the easy workaround is using the ability right, and not nerfing it with rules that aren't there.

Sovereign Court

Casual Viking wrote:
No, the easy workaround is using the ability right, and not nerfing it with rules that aren't there.

Were you referring to me? ("easy workaround")


Ascalaphus wrote:
Casual Viking wrote:
No, the easy workaround is using the ability right, and not nerfing it with rules that aren't there.

Were you referring to me? ("easy workaround")

Nothing in the rules say that you have to draw the alchemical substance to transfer its power to a weapon. So the easy workaround is to not add that unstated step.


No he's saying that the ability doesn't say you need the Alchemical item in hand, so you don't. The easy work around is to spot RAI, which in this case for the ability to be remotely useful feels fairly simple at least for my needs and campaigns. YMMV.

I don't think the int would be added to splash twice, though if dust of choking and sneezing or glitterdust can be added to an acid flask this way, this thread might have become my best friend. Had a whole party go down trying to use the stuff, and just add water never crossed their mind. Could be a neat trick to pull for an alchemist, to deal massive con damage on a fort save at good range. DC is a little low, but for mid range full casters this can easily be a SoD.

Sovereign Court

thorin001 wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Casual Viking wrote:
No, the easy workaround is using the ability right, and not nerfing it with rules that aren't there.

Were you referring to me? ("easy workaround")

Nothing in the rules say that you have to draw the alchemical substance to transfer its power to a weapon. So the easy workaround is to not add that unstated step.

Going by that logic, there's also nothing saying the substance needs to be on your person. Why not consume alchemical weapons straight from your opponents' backpacks? Or one that's sitting in a desk drawer in your lodge?

I think this is rather absurd. You're physically adding something to an arrow you're about to launch. Of course you need to have the substance at hand.


Ascalaphus wrote:
thorin001 wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Casual Viking wrote:
No, the easy workaround is using the ability right, and not nerfing it with rules that aren't there.

Were you referring to me? ("easy workaround")

Nothing in the rules say that you have to draw the alchemical substance to transfer its power to a weapon. So the easy workaround is to not add that unstated step.

Going by that logic, there's also nothing saying the substance needs to be on your person. Why not consume alchemical weapons straight from your opponents' backpacks? Or one that's sitting in a desk drawer in your lodge?

I think this is rather absurd. You're physically adding something to an arrow you're about to launch. Of course you need to have the substance at hand.

Well, by RAW, it doesn't specify that you have to have both items in hand. It says that as a Move Action, you can infuse the alchemal weapon to the ammunition.

Alchemal Extracts, Bombs, and Explosive Missiles are each drawn, blended, mixed, stirred, primed, and used all in 1 Standard Action. It's not a far leap that the alchemal weapon can be drawn and infused with the ammunition all in 1 Move Action.

Drawing the arrow is a Free Action. Coneptually, the flask of Lamp Oil could easily be still on the Alchemist's bandolier, perhaps with a little quick-pour faucet or one of those belt-mounted change dispensers.

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Expect table variation. I had a GM for the longest time that wouldn't allow a conductive bow and explosive missile because it was a SLA with a material component (the bomb), or ranged attack action is not the same as the throw splash weapon so doesn't qualify for conductive, or even allowing alchemical arrows with explosive missile (+conductive, grenadier alchemical weapon).

Throwing a bomb says you don't need to draw it to use it, alchemical weapon should have add well. But it didn't, so table variation.


Krell44 wrote:

At 4th level, if the Grenadier Alchemist selects the Explosive Missile Discovery does this mean that:

Move Action: Infuse an Arrow with an alchemical item (lets say Acid Flask)
Standard Action: Infuse same arrow with the power of his bomb

Results: Fire Arrow dealing: 1d8 + STR Bonus +1d6 Acid + 2d6+Splash to target on a hit.

Am I calculation this correctly?

Don't forget to add all the INT bonuses. And make the bow conductive.

Sovereign Court

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
thorin001 wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Casual Viking wrote:
No, the easy workaround is using the ability right, and not nerfing it with rules that aren't there.

Were you referring to me? ("easy workaround")

Nothing in the rules say that you have to draw the alchemical substance to transfer its power to a weapon. So the easy workaround is to not add that unstated step.

Going by that logic, there's also nothing saying the substance needs to be on your person. Why not consume alchemical weapons straight from your opponents' backpacks? Or one that's sitting in a desk drawer in your lodge?

I think this is rather absurd. You're physically adding something to an arrow you're about to launch. Of course you need to have the substance at hand.

Well, by RAW, it doesn't specify that you have to have both items in hand. It says that as a Move Action, you can infuse the alchemal weapon to the ammunition.

Alchemal Extracts, Bombs, and Explosive Missiles are each drawn, blended, mixed, stirred, primed, and used all in 1 Standard Action. It's not a far leap that the alchemal weapon can be drawn and infused with the ammunition all in 1 Move Action.

Drawing the arrow is a Free Action. Coneptually, the flask of Lamp Oil could easily be still on the Alchemist's bandolier, perhaps with a little quick-pour faucet or one of those belt-mounted change dispensers.

It's quite a leap. Extracts, bombs and explosive missiles specifically call out that they deviate from the normal situation, where to manipulate that object you need to have it at hand.

Now, if you disagree with that, fine. Not my problem.

However, you should check if the GM agrees with that interpretation before you make a character dependent on it to function well. And if the character is intended for PFS, I would shy away from this because I think it won't fly at many tables.


Ascalaphus wrote:
Casual Viking wrote:
No, the easy workaround is using the ability right, and not nerfing it with rules that aren't there.

Going by that logic, there's also nothing saying the substance needs to be on your person. Why not consume alchemical weapons straight from your opponents' backpacks? Or one that's sitting in a desk drawer in your lodge?

I think this is rather absurd. You're physically adding something to an arrow you're about to launch. Of course you need to have the substance at hand.
.......
It's quite a leap. Extracts, bombs and explosive missiles specifically call out that they deviate from the normal situation, where to manipulate that object you need to have it at hand.

"going by that logic".

What, the absurd notion that actions, in particular supernatural actions, take the listed time?
Or, you mean the context of the alchemist, who is already absurdly deft at manipulating substances in combat time?
Or, the absurd notion that abilities, taken in the most straightforward way, are meant to be usable (not necessarily good, but at least usable).

Furthermore, you claim that extracts are called out as not needing to be drawn. Are you sure about that? Could you quote me the relevant section?

Nice strawman, too.

Sovereign Court

Casual Viking wrote:

What, the absurd notion that actions, in particular supernatural actions, take the listed time?

Or, you mean the context of the alchemist, who is already absurdly deft at manipulating substances in combat time?
Or, the absurd notion that abilities, taken in the most straightforward way, are meant to be usable (not necessarily good, but at least usable).

Furthermore, you claim that extracts are called out as not needing to be drawn. Are you sure about that? Could you quote me the relevant section?

Nice strawman, too.

Alchemist wrote:
An alchemist can draw and drink an extract as a standard action.

Normally, drinking a potion requires a Move to retrieve and a Standard to drink it.

Alchemist wrote:
Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

Normally, throwing a splash weapon requires a Move to retrieve and a Standard to throw it.

These abilities have specific text to change that. The Grenadier's alchemical weapon ability does not.

That doesn't make it unusable as you claim, just not as good. You can still draw and apply in a single round, or apply an already-drawn substance and then attack.


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Ascalaphus wrote:


These abilities have specific text to change that. The Grenadier's alchemical weapon ability does not.
Casual Viking wrote:


Furthermore, you claim that extracts are called out as not needing to be drawn. Are you sure about that? Could you quote me the relevant section?
Alchemist wrote:
An alchemist can draw and drink an extract as a standard action.

Okay, that was added in the late 2010 second printing. The first printing didn't mention that; apparently the writer in question thought it was sufficiently clear. Field Guide was written about the same time. So I'm still not convinced on this point.

Ascalaphus wrote:


That doesn't make it unusable as you claim, just not as good. You can still draw and apply in a single round, or apply an already-drawn substance and then attack.

I disagree, because the ability isn't just "move action to infuse". It's like this: At 2. level, where you only have one attack per round, you spend your move action. At level 6 (should probably have been level 8, TBH) it becomes a swift action, so you can do it once per turn and still full attack. At level 15, when you have 3 attacks, you can do it on every attack. It's not like level 15 suddenly adds the need to use swift actions for something else.

So, I maintain that "must spend a separate action to draw the item" is neither written nor obviously intended, and conflicts with how the ability seems to be intended to work.

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