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Just wondering about feats such as Pummeling style and counterpunch.
Both say it has to be with unarmed strikes etc.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-style-combat-style
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/counterpunch-combat
What then about Monks,Brawlers and other characters who can make unarmed attackes with kicks,knees, albows etc?
Aka could a brawler holding a shield and a close weapon choose to attack with kicks and knees while still holding their weapons for next round of combat?
Or in the case of counterpunch, Just kick the opponents.
You can use unarmed strikes while holding weapons, yeah. Like you said, just kick, or headbutt, or whatever. This isn't restricted to any particular class, anyone can do it.
I don't think there's a formal ruling that any class can kick/elbow strike/headbutt. It makes sense and it's certainly the way I run my tables, but Your GameMaster's Mileage May Vary.
To add to what Orfamay has said I would probably tell a player who is not a monk, brawler, (insert appropriate class/archetype), that they can do it but not be consider proficient.
Everyone is proficient, but they want Improved Unarmed, otherwise they provoke AoO when they punch/kick/headbutt...
To add to what Orfamay has said I would probably tell a player who is not a monk, brawler, (insert appropriate class/archetype), that they can do it but not be consider proficient.
There's something to be said for that, actually (although I'd not do that myself).
In real life, kicking is difficult, which is why kickboxers and karateka and other martial artists, you know, train. If you don't know what you're doing, you're going to screw up your own footwork and balance, and you also aren't going to do much more than maybe push your opponent away.
Kicking with your hands full is doubly hard, because it messes with your balance even more, and reduces the power of your kicks even further.
I'd argue that the Improved Unarmed Strike feat should be enough to establish proficiency... but even there, there's no formal rules to back me up.
To add to what Orfamay has said I would probably tell a player who is not a monk, brawler, (insert appropriate class/archetype), that they can do it but not be consider proficient.Everyone is proficient, but they want Improved Unarmed, otherwise they provoke AoO when they punch/kick/headbutt...
As I wrote earlier, that's not actually supported by any rules text. Your GM is within RAW to rule that only the monk and brawler are proficient at kicking.
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You can use unarmed strikes while holding weapons, yeah. Like you said, just kick, or headbutt, or whatever. This isn't restricted to any particular class, anyone can do it.I don't think there's a formal ruling that any class can kick/elbow strike/headbutt. It makes sense and it's certainly the way I run my tables, but Your GameMaster's Mileage May Vary.
There is. Per the Combat chapter of the CRB/PRD:
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
You can use unarmed strikes while holding weapons, yeah. Like you said, just kick, or headbutt, or whatever. This isn't restricted to any particular class, anyone can do it.I don't think there's a formal ruling that any class can kick/elbow strike/headbutt. It makes sense and it's certainly the way I run my tables, but Your GameMaster's Mileage May Vary.
There is. Per the Combat chapter of the CRB/PRD:
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
That doesn't imply that any class can do that; it's an equally valid interpretation that kicks and head butts are singled out as being specific to the monk (&c) class, but they use the same rules as punches for all classes.
In fact, it's arguably a better interpretation, because any interpretation that makes a clause redundant or meaningless (like singling out the monk for the capacity to make kicks) is dispreferred. (Lawyers formalize this, in statutory interpretation, as the "rule against surplusage.")
It would be at my table. Beyond that, no one can say.
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You can use unarmed strikes while holding weapons, yeah. Like you said, just kick, or headbutt, or whatever. This isn't restricted to any particular class, anyone can do it.I don't think there's a formal ruling that any class can kick/elbow strike/headbutt. It makes sense and it's certainly the way I run my tables, but Your GameMaster's Mileage May Vary.
There is. Per the Combat chapter of the CRB/PRD:
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:That doesn't imply that any class can do that; it's an equally valid interpretation that kicks and head butts are singled out as being specific to the monk (&c) class, but they use the same rules as punches for all classes.
In fact, it's arguably a better interpretation, because any interpretation that makes a clause redundant or meaningless (like singling out the monk for the capacity to make kicks) is dispreferred. (Lawyers formalize this, in statutory interpretation, as the "rule against surplusage.")
2 points
1) that rule is in the combat chapter and does not single out monks, so must apply to everyone.2) the rules were not written by lawyers.
Unarmed strikes are classified as simple weapons (according to d20pfsrd) so anyone proficient in simple weapons is covered.
As mentioned above, the description of unarmed strikes (kicks, headbutts etc) is in the combat section, so any restrictions/limitations are imagined, not supported by rules text.
Anyone proficient in simple weapons can kick, punch and headbutt.
EditedAny 1st lvl character with weapon in his hands, can kick and headpunch their enemy in same round if he want, but better not forget that he can make only 2 attacks.
And with -8 penalty of to both attacks and do only 1d3 +1/2 STR nonlethal dmg, if they don't have Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
Better throw that weapon away, so you punch the first attack with only -4 penalty and use his full STR. Of course, if you want make lethal damage, remember add extra penalty of -4. Good luck trying to hit on something.
Having weapon in hands make all other attacks off-hand.
Any 1st lvl armed character can kick and headpunch their enemy in same round if they want, but better not forget that they can make only 2 attacks with -8 penalty of to both attacks and do only 1d3 +1/2 STR nonlethal dmg, if they don't have Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
Edit: Better throw that weapon away, so you punch and kick instead, with only -4 and -8 penalties. Of course, if you want make lethal damage, remember add extra penalty of -4. Good luck trying to hit on something.
Only if they are proficient with simple weapons. Not everything is.
Also, without Improved Unarmed, they risk provoking AoO from whomever they are headbutting/kicking/punching.
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handedness only comes into it if you are gaining extra attacks from 2 weapon fighting. you can freely switch between weapons as long as you keep to your BAB derived attacks
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Everyone is proficient in unarmed strikes.
Simple, Martial, and Exotic Weapons: Anybody but a druid, monk, or wizard is proficient with all simple weapons. Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all simple and all martial weapons. Characters of other classes are proficient with an assortment of simple weapons and possibly some martial or even exotic weapons. All characters are proficient with unarmed strikes and any natural weapons possessed by their race. A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Everyone is proficient in unarmed strikes.
Simple, Martial, and Exotic Weapons: Anybody but a druid, monk, or wizard is proficient with all simple weapons. Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all simple and all martial weapons. Characters of other classes are proficient with an assortment of simple weapons and possibly some martial or even exotic weapons. All characters are proficient with unarmed strikes and any natural weapons possessed by their race. A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Well there you go, you don't even need simple weapons to know how to punch. :D
Also, without Improved Unarmed, they risk provoking AoO from whomever they are headbutting/kicking/punching.
Yep. I quess even twice if they are bullheaded.
Woohoo this topic again. It can't be two days since there was a discussion about hands, twf or threatening/wielding
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it's legal, anyone can make kicks or headbutts. And since PFS doesn't change any rules about this, you're good to go in PFS.