Pseudo-Unwinnable fight. Good or bad idea?


Advice


This is mostly a curiosity based question, but I'm wondering if having a "boss" that is designed to toy with the PCs, then all but crush them, then walk off without finishing them off.

Here's the idea:

PCs (who's classes and abilities have yet to be determined) stumble upon the BBEG way before they are ready to fight him. The BBEG is not interested in killing the PCs, but doesn't mind toying with them. After a lengthy battle of trading somewhat heavy hits from the NPC, he get bored with the party and hits them with some less-than-lethal spell that incapacitates either all of them, or enough of them that the remaining PCs realize that it would be stupid to carry on.

Statistics wise, I'm thinking a custom Sorcerer template (replace the bloodline stuff with d8 HD, medium BAB, light armor/martial weapon proficiency). The idea here is that the BBEG can handle himself in melee and use his low level spells to toy with the PCs, then bust out a high level crowd control spell to incapacitate the party as he walks off chuckling.

I'm not sure what level to put him at. I want him to be hit-able rarely, but have plenty of HP to tank what hits he does take. I want him to have high enough saves that the party can't incapacitate him.

The BBEG will be using mostly debuff spells to soften people up (touch of idiocy, ray of enfeeblement, ray of clumsiness, bestow curse, etc.)

I'm thinking of throwing this guy at the PCs fairly early (level 5 or so) and he would go on to become the final boss (where he is hopefully defeated by the PCs).

I'm unsure whether the PCs should just run into him on an unrelated quest or based on poor information.

Examples:

The PCs are going to retrieve some item from a dungeon and the BBEG just happens to be looking for the same item. They run into each other and things deteriorate from there.

OR

The PCs are sent out to deal with some little known sorcerer who has been causing trouble. The quest giver is under the impression that the BBEG isn't very powerful and assumes that the PCs can handle him. When the PCs finally meet up with him, they start to fight him, but realize about halfway through the fight that the BBEG is much more powerful than the quest giver or PCs thought, and things deteriorate from there.

My main worries are making the BBEG too lethal, (I was hoping to avoid this by using debuff spells primarily) or making him too squishy and the PCs ace him before he has a chance to toy with them.

I'm not too worried about rail-roading. My group is usually interested in a good story over fair gameplay. I don't plan on locking them in the room with the guy, so they can run if they want, but I want the group to think he's a pushover until they get invested in the fight. I also don't want to fudge any rolls. If the PCs manage to beat him, it isn't the end of the world. (He just becomes the BBEG's side-kick)

Here are the questions:

1) Is this a good idea?

2) Can this be done without the party feeling like they were tricked/forced into an unwinnable fight by the GM?

3) Is it reasonable for the BBEG to let the PCs live, seeing as he could easily just finish them off? (Maybe I give the BBEG a time sensitive errand or he has plans for the PCs later?)

4) How should I build BBEG assuming the rest of this is okay? (Level, Stats, magic items, spells, etc.)

Some info on how I build NPCs:

1) They get appropriate wealth by level for there level.

2) They start with 8s in all stats, then I give them 25 points to distribute how they see fit, up to 10 points in one stat (an 18). (This is what the PCs get on character creation, and I want to be fair.)

3) They have access to anything in any first party Pathfinder or DnD 3.5 books.

4) Bosses get max HP and partial immunity to SoDs/SoSs. (PCs get max HP on the first die and 1/2 HD size + 1 per level).

Silver Crusade

No , I thinks its a Great idea.
I wont thinking about Reasonable etc, its the Personallity of the Boss and a Great Plot item....
.but don't make it unwinnable.That's a big mistake I think.

There is always the possibility of chance and luck in any encounter and limiting yourself so hardly is wrong.

A Creative way could Kill him and then lets say his Wife takes over.
So you have a Great Idea with a Back Up plan.

BWT There is always Non Leathel DMG to make someone loose.


It's a fine idea. The basic fact about these sorts of games is that the players generally win and accomplish most of what they do, but they don't need to win every time. That sometimes you don't succeed makes those times that you do more fulfilling. But if there are never any setbacks along the way, most groups are going to get bored.

But "I'm going to go fight the bad guy... I am out of my depth... best get better so I can defeat the bad guy" is such a well-established trope that I wouldn't worry about the basic structure being perceived as rail-roading. Like it would be weird if Luke Skywalker had defeated Vader in their first confrontation, and the overall story would have suffered for it.

A few things I would suggest for this sort of confrontation:
1) Have a backup plan in case the PCs roll amazingly and end up killing someone they're not supposed to be able to. The game runs on dice and sometimes dice do strange things. This is pretty easy to solve, since you can always shift real power to a shadowy vizier or something, but you want to figure out in advance how you're going to undermine that feeling of success in case they do succeed when they shouldn't.

2) Don't prevent the previous issue by making the bad guy absolutely unkillable. The PCs should be able to do a little bit against the BBEG, since you don't want the players to think "this guy's got plot armor" since that takes them out of the game. Something you could do is feed the PCs some information on the boss's weaknesses, so they prepare for that, and have the fight be going about even for a while, and then have the boss do something that their scouting report doesn't cover and that they're not prepared to be able to handle. That sends the message "if we prepare better, we will have a chance."

3) Worried about lethality? 13th Age has a great rule that they encourage you to steal, which I have, that basically reads "at any point if the PCs all agree, they can decide to run away and you let them". In exchange for this extremely generous mechanic they suffer a narrative loss, where something they were trying to make happen doesn't and something the antagonists want to have happen does. I know a lot of GMs (myself included) don't really like killing characters *particularly* when it's not a climactic meaningful death in the culmination of story, so "let them slink away, but have there be repercussions for that" is a much better solution than character death particularly early on in a campaign. That does mean you have to plan in advance the long-term objectives of your players and your antagonists, so you can make that setback meaningful, but this is a better problem to solve than "half of you have to make new characters."


thflame wrote:

1) Is this a good idea?

2) Can this be done without the party feeling like they were tricked/forced into an unwinnable fight by the GM?

3) Is it reasonable for the BBEG to let the PCs live, seeing as he could easily just finish them off? (Maybe I give the BBEG a time sensitive errand or he has plans for the PCs later?)

4) How should I build BBEG assuming the rest of this is okay? (Level, Stats, magic items, spells, etc.)

@1.)

It is all in the implementation. But always remember: No DM plan survives contact with the players chaotic vortex of crazy, unanticipable reactions.

@2.)
It is metagamy to expect that everybody and everything the PCs might fight is always slightly challenging, but overcomeable. Only monsters are easily gaugeable about how strong they are. Humanoids are always tricks, as you dont see Class Levels directly, and certainly not how many of those. Fighter 4 or Fighter 10 - you will only see the difference once the whooping begins.

Their questgiver made a mistake. Happens.

Let the BBEG stand with the back to the entrance and let the door creak loudly when they enter, so he turns and adresses them strangely , so as if he was expecting someone else.

@3.)
If the BBEG just suddenly turns into a Saturday Morning Cartoon villain, twirls his mustache, laughs and lets them live ... i personally would not feel thrilled.

Give him a reason
* why he hides his true power at first (was laying a trap for someone else, ...) ,
* why he simply goes and lets some hoodlums who just tried to hack him to pieces alive, who will probably try to kill him again (he gets a Sending in the middle of combat and needs togo RIGHT NOW - head to the side, listens intently while suddenly fighting full defense for a round) (Has the same Patron Deity as one group member openly displays).
* Or simply have him show obvious symptoms of being mentally deranged, like smelling of 5 months unwashed, stained clothing, wild hair - crazy hobo style.

@4.) Look up Eldritch Knight Guides for details.


You know your group better than I do, so make sure you don't have suicidal PCs or this could turn into a TPK. There are some players who just don't back down, even when their characters are obviously losing. I think it's because they believe that, as players, they're entitled to win every fight. That the GM is required to create encounters for the players to win, so even if it's going badly, the GM will fudge some die rolls or have some NPC ride in to save the day, or whatever. So they keep fighting the lost fight until they die, or until you really do that.

Another kind of player that this won't work for is the kind who says "That guy wrecked us and he's still out there, nearby, so we might run into him again. Let's find some other continent to adventure on!" and suddenly the group goes so far away that the BBEG is no longer part of the group's future. You can work around that, but most workarounds jsut seem like they're contrived and shallow (good GMing and storytelling might alleviate this).

A third type of player might want immediate revenge. "We were supposed to get that MacGuffin, but the NPC got it. Now we need to track him down and get it back, right away - we just need a plan for how to beat him". Instead of creating a long-term recurring villain you end up turning the entire immediate story arc into a revenge tale.

If you have those players, even some of them, then this plan might very well fail.

So:

1. Is it a bad idea? Maybe, if you have any of those kinds of player. Otherwise it might be a good idea. Only you might know.
2. Probably not. YOU make the story. It's not like that NPC was accidentally there; you put him there. They'll know that. The real question is whether your players can handle you using such a heavy-handed plot device.

Problem with Pathfinder:
There is a big problem with Pathfinder regarding this kind of idea. It's very hard to incapacitate the whole group. Some spells might do it, but they usually only work against characters who are weak at that particular save (e.g. Hold Person vs. Will Save). But you almost never have a party where everyone is weak against the same kind of save, so you might need multiple rounds to get the full incapacitation: hold the fighter, nauseate the wizard, etc.

Or you could try beating them into submission with non-lethal damage, but nobody ever really uses that except the good guys. It's weird and hard to explain that a BBEG (the "E" is for "Evil", right?) is just knocking people out and leaving them there. Doing so takes much more time and effort (you can't use fireballs or summoned zombies or many other easy ways to defeat enemies). With limited options that often are worse than the lethal options, why would any EVIL guy bother limiting himself like that?

He wouldn't.

You might get around it through story. One of my favorite series of books is the Garrett P.I. series by Glen Cook. In one of the early novels, he accidentally saves the "Kingpin" (crime lord, "Godfather" of all crime) in the city where he lives. Then some evil demonic cult hires a bunch of hit men to kill Garrett but the Kingpin protects him by telling all the hit men to back off and putting a ridiculously large bounty on the head of anyone who lays a finger on Garrett.

You could do something like that. Have the PCs get the protection of a powerful NPC and then the BBEG, knowing this, won't kill them for fear of what that powerful NPC will do to him.

A different trick I have used is Primal Magic. I got the idea from a third-party RPG book called The Primal Order (it's really old, but you can probably still find copies online). Basically, it gives a system for introducing god-level magic into the game. God spells don't allow saves - gods are just operating on a much higher level, slinging around the magic that created the universe, and simple things like spell resistance and saving throws just don't apply. Of course, this makes gods impossible to kill, but they probably should be - you probably don't want a group of mortals, even 20th level mortals, to go rub Saranrae out (if you do, The Primal Order has a solution for that too). But it's not a sourcebook for statting out full-powered gods; it's much better at giving little glimpses of that power to mortals (demigods, godlings, or anyone "touched" by a god and gifted with a sliver of their power).

To that end, I sometimes like to have BBEGs have a little of this power. Not much (or they become invincible). But enough that they can, rarely, trickle a bit of their power into a spell they're casting to make it bypass saving throws. They can also do the reverse, trickle their power into their defenses to automatically save against spells (even ones that don't allow saves).

If you use a system like this, then any AoE spell that incapacitates, delivered with a trickled of Primal power, becomes a guaranteed success. It's also a good way to make sure a recurring villain can escape a fight that goes badly - getting low on HP and running out of spells? No problem, a quick Primal shield to turn all physical attacks while we Teleport or Expeditious Retreat or whatever, and the escape is guaranteed.

3. Is it reasonable? See the spoiler. Probably not, given the limitations of Pathfinder. If he's really evil, then slaughtering them is easier, faster, more certain to succeed, and more profitable than leaving them alive. Only good guys make the effort to not kill their enemies. If your BBEG is really a BBGG, then it makes sense, unless you contrive it with storytelling.
4. How do you build him? See the spoiler. Make him Primal or limit him for roleplaying reasons. If you do that, then any BBEG build will work - just make him much higher level than the PCs (at least 5 levels higher, preferably more since he's way behind on action economy) and make him rich (at least PC wealth for his level, but maybe even more - the best iconic bad guys usually had vast wealth at their disposal). If you don't do that, then this is a much harder answer.


It's a perfectly fine idea; may be tricky in the implementation.

If you're looking for some melee + survivability + crowd control, are you sure you want a sorceror? A magus, an eldritch knight, or even a properly built mesmerist could do just as well.

For level... well, if the PCs are 5th, and you want to be sure of shutting them down, I'd say 12th level. That's APL+6. Normally a boss is APL+3 or APL+4; +5 should do the job, but you never know when PCs are going to roll crazy and get lucky. If you have more PCs, or the players are very experienced, add another level.

As others have pointed out, you need a reason for him not to kill the PCs. Note that it doesn't have to be a *great* reason. Just, some reason.

Doug M.


I have an idea for how to save the defeated party.

Give the PCs a patron, some retired great adventurer who sees potential in them or wants to use them as catspaws against old enemies (whichevever). Underline that this is a good thing by having the patron give some (minor, but useful) benefits to the players (e.g. "here's some potions I'll never drink, you might want them".)

Have the the Patron be the one who sets the PCs against the BBEG (an old enemy of the Patron that there wasn't time for) and have this character be generally boastful and talk up how this particular BBEG wasn't all that bad, so the PCs should have no problem (the Patron need not actually believe this, the Patron is just trying to fire up the PCs)

Once the PCs are defeated, have the Patron (who feels bad about sending these kids to their deaths), intervene to save them somehow, but is killed in the process. While the PCs recuperate wherever, have the bad guys loot and burn down the Patron's country manor that had been their base of operations for at least this mission (this way you can dress up the manor with all sorts of wealth and magic items, but not actually have to ever give them to the players.)

So they're introduced to the villain, suffer a setback, and feel a loss from it (they no longer have someone to buy them stuff).


Not a fan of the Primal Magic angle (for precisely some of those "why doesn't he just kill everyone right now?" concerns), but other than that, DM_Blake has the right of it. It's so much harder to NOT kill people.

As far as "those types of players", keep in mind that those are mostly very good players to have. The "we made a powerful enemy, let's hide out in Mexico" guy? He's telling you that realism is important in his game, and rather than expecting you to provide a one way ticket down the Heroic Railroad, last stop Saving the World, he's willing to see the story play out based on how he feels it actually would. The Liam Neeson in Taken guy? He's telling you that he's totally willing to plan ahead and get creative instead of just expecting to win in a rematch because of some plot device, or after they level up twice going through the BBEG's dungeon before the final encounter. Even the "I'm going to fight no matter what" guy is showing that he has complete trust in you as a GM.

It's just that the particular plot device you want to use doesn't work for any of those kinds of players.


If you as a GM have an adversarial relationship with your players, it probably won't work: it will just feel like the GM smacking the players around because he can. If you have a "joint storytelling and I am your narrator" relationship, where both you and your players are in it for the long term plotline, then it should work fine.

One word of warning: have a back-up plan in case the PCs actually take your guy out, especially if your guy has high-level gear that you aren't ready to hand the PCs yet.

You know, a simulacrum could be a really good way to pull this off: the PCs face a watered down version of the big bad, then discover how much worse the big bad actually is.


Jaunt wrote:

Not a fan of the Primal Magic angle (for precisely some of those "why doesn't he just kill everyone right now?" concerns), but other than that, DM_Blake has the right of it. It's so much harder to NOT kill people.

As far as "those types of players", keep in mind that those are mostly very good players to have. The "we made a powerful enemy, let's hide out in Mexico" guy? He's telling you that realism is important in his game, and rather than expecting you to provide a one way ticket down the Heroic Railroad, last stop Saving the World, he's willing to see the story play out based on how he feels it actually would. The Liam Neeson in Taken guy? He's telling you that he's totally willing to plan ahead and get creative instead of just expecting to win in a rematch because of some plot device, or after they level up twice going through the BBEG's dungeon before the final encounter. Even the "I'm going to fight no matter what" guy is showing that he has complete trust in you as a GM.

It's just that the particular plot device you want to use doesn't work for any of those kinds of players.

I agree with everything you've said, except I am a big fan of TPO.

To answer your question, killing by reducing the HP of all your enemies can take time. Unless they all cluster together for a fireball and they're not wearing any fire resistance items/spells. Even then, as a caster you do 3.5 HP per level and almost every "Hero" has more than 3.5 HP per level so even if they fail their saves they are not likely to die from a single fireball.

But if you have a nice AE SOS spell (Stinking Cloud is the same level as Fireball and Fear is one level higher) is guaranteed to stop them all for enough rounds to get what you want, assuming you can primally guarantee they cannot successfully save.

This lets the bad guy do exactly what the OP said: toy with them for a few rounds for his own amusement, smacking them with his sword and possibly insulting at them for their feeble efforts (this could even be played as the BBEG testing* the PCs, and a good Sense Motive check by a PC could determine that fact), but then after a few rounds he'll say "I grow weary of you!" and drop his Primal Fear spell and laugh as EVERY PC runs away without a save.

*Maybe he's going to try to hire them and this is their "interview". Or maybe he has future plans for them, such as manipulating them into doing something dangerous like eliminating the BBEG's primary NPC rival. Anything like this could justify leaving them alive rather than going with that no-save primal fireball.


Gwen Smith wrote:
You know, a simulacrum could be a really good way to pull this off: the PCs face a watered down version of the big bad, then discover how much worse the big bad actually is.

+1 this is what you're looking for.


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I can tell you as a player this would infuriate me.

Part of the general contract between a GM and their players is that the GM is supposed to present reasonable, and at time difficult and challenging encounters. But they should always have a significant chance of being won by the PCs (50% chance the PCs can win with a high likelihood of incurring character deaths but not TPK).

If you get rid of this, as a player I'm only going to feel like you're doing a monolog and we the players are you captive audience. We don't have a serious chance to do anything. You just get to sit there and beat us up effectively like puppets in your grand story.

And I can't stand that even a little. It's not fun for me at all.

I also think the whole trope of "too worthless to kill" is stupid. When PCs encounter an evil enemy that refuses to repent they die by the sword. You don't leave them to come back another day. Some characters get arrested or something similar, but it usually involves the NPC choosing to life with punishment instead of die. The idea of a BBEG who thinks he's too powerful to ever be threatened and will just play with the PCs for kicks is an incredibly short-sighted moron.

Personally I think the better thing to do is keep him off screen but relay his actions to the PCs.

They find a entire battalion wiped out with indications of only a single enemy being present, especially the arrogant bastards calling card.

He slays the grand champion of the kingdom in a duel witnessed by the highest generals.

He casts a spell that it turns a whole towns water supply to poison.

Every time the PCs get near him, they are beneath his notice. They don't engage him, they can't even get to him.

Make him the obvious end goal. Cutting through minion after minion to get to the arrogant bastard.

It's no fun to just get trounced and played around with. It just feels condescending.


If this is the kind of encounter you want to run to introduce the BBEG, this is my suggestion. The party finds the BBEG alone, the BBEG says something about them being unexpected guests, but just enough of them to finish the sacrifices (hence a reason for him not wanting to kill them outright). With a snap of his fingers, he summons a hoard of minions. Skeletons, clay soldiers, what ever feels thematic for the BBEG. The minions proceed to use use non-lethal damage to beat the party unconscious while the BBEG watches. The party should wake up in time to see a lone (and very weary) adventurer come to fight the BBEG. They should overhear some dialog making it obvious that the lone hero has lost the rest of his party to the BBEG and he is determined to stop him. The lone hero deals a massive blow to the BBEG, then the BBEG cast Slay Living, or some other very scary spell that takes the lone hero out of the fight. The now obviously injured BBEG forgets about the captive party and either limps away or teleports back to his lair to recover, leaving the party with the body of the lone adventurer. He should have a journal or a guild log (and perhaps even a Wayfinder) that would hint at the threat the BBEG poses to the world and give the party a reason to try to take over for the fallen hero that saved them from being sacrificed to what ever dark god the BBEG was going to feed them to.

This gives you the "un-winable" encounter along with the a valid reason why the party is not killed and a plot hook to get the party interested in looking for the BBEG.


DM_Blake wrote:


To answer your question, killing by reducing the HP of all your enemies can take time. Unless they all cluster together for a fireball and they're not wearing any fire resistance items/spells. Even then, as a caster you do 3.5 HP per level and almost every "Hero" has more than 3.5 HP per level so even if they fail their saves they are not likely to die from a single fireball.

Which is why you don't use damage. (Mass) Primal Hold Person, CDGs for everybody. Especially if the BBEG has a couple minions who know where the pointy end of the sword goes. Same for Sleep. On principle, roughly half the crowd control spells should be regarded as save-or-dies.


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thflame wrote:

Here are the questions:

1[a]) Is this a good idea?

2[a]) Can this be done without the party feeling like they were tricked/forced into an unwinnable fight by the GM?

3[a]) Is it reasonable for the BBEG to let the PCs live, seeing as he could easily just finish them off? (Maybe I give the BBEG a time sensitive errand or he has plans for the PCs later?)

4[a]) How should I build BBEG assuming the rest of this is okay? (Level, Stats, magic items, spells, etc.)

Some info on how I build NPCs:

1[b]) They get appropriate wealth by level for there level.

2[b]) They start with 8s in all stats, then I give them 25 points to distribute how they see fit, up to 10 points in one stat (an 18). (This is what the PCs get on character creation, and I want to be fair.)

3[b]) They have access to anything in any first party Pathfinder or DnD 3.5 books.

4[b]) Bosses get max HP and partial immunity to SoDs/SoSs. (PCs get max HP on the first die and 1/2 HD size + 1 per level).

1a) It can be a good idea in TTRPGs. You need to decide if your group is playing a GAME or if it is in a ROLEPLAYING SETTING. The difference is that GAMES assume that the PCs will be able to overcome pretty much anything they run into, and ROLEPLAYING SETTINGS assume that the PCs exist in a world that isn't connected or linked to their levels in any way: if they decide to go poke a king, he'll most likely be CR 11 or so, his combined army's CR will be higher than 30 and he'll probably kill the PCs with no problems if they are foolish enough to challenge him. Still, having at last one encounter that is absurdly high can work even if your game is in the GAME group of Pathfinder, but be aware that your players will think that they can win regardless of if the encounter is, to you, obviously out of their league. If you've only sent encounters that they can handle at them, they will probably view this as a betrayal since they use their TTRPG time as a power fantasy instead of one where the world can and should react to put them in their place the moment they start being problematic for it.

2a) The only thing you have to do is not kill them. The GM Fiat way of doing this is making it so they, for this encounter, cannot outright die from damage. There are a handful of rules from other systems that protect you in terms of having tough BBEGs: in 7th Sea PCs literally couldn't die from damage unless something obviously deadly happened, e.g. falling off a 200 ft. drop onto sharp rocks, and the villains had to deliver a coup de grace to helpless PCs to kill them—essentially stand over them, make a big dramatic speach about how much they suck and then stab them to death.— In D&D 5E the PCs are going to be hard pressed to die from damage taken unless it is absurdly high, and you can't go into negative HP since at 0 you start making death saving throws (3 failures you die, 3 successes and you heal 1hp or so). The old standby for most GMs when it comes to 3.5 or Pathfinder is "You take 9999 damage, if that would kill you, then you're instead at 1 point until you die from negative HP and stable."

3a) BBEGs don't tend to let heroes live since they know that the heroes are the ones who are most likely to kill them. However, some BBEGs might see the heroes as potential minions or allies. The simple reality here is that a well written villain doesn't really want to kill his enemies unless those enemies are competition for his current or overall goal. If he wants to become a god, then the PCs—who don't want to become gods—are fairly irrelevent, but that one guy who is trying to also become a god via the same method as our villain is the top priority for murder. If anything, the villain will want to team up with the PCs to take down his competition while rationalizing his goals and trying to bring them over to his side. Every villain should, in some way, have a justification and philosophy (even if they are not particularly good ones) for why he does what he does. I recall I wrote a villain who wanted to make an artifact on Golarion that would multiply all of the statistics of arcane magic by a magnitude of 10. Arcane magic would erase divine magic, especially with spell sages, and most govts. would become magocracies. After what would likely be hellish civil war in nearly every magically ready country, the world would move into a new era. Thing is, the PCs kind of took exception to the whole millions of people dying because Mr. Bad Guy wants to make arcane magic super strong. It would likely lead to a long golden age, but it would also have a slew of other problems.

4a) As a general rule, build BBEGs that come alone like PCs using NPC statistics. You can do a lot here, but one thing to keep in mind is that if he is a necromancer, he might just revive all of the PCs as bloody skeletal champions or something else likewise immortal. As for his build, I'd say spend his wealth on pets. Few things are as dangerous as a wizard with a shield golem since that shield golem is going to be making a B-Line for the PCs Offensive caster and then Defensive caster without fear of the villain's spells doing anything to it. Not only that, but shield golems have fast healing and typically high DR. If you want to make things more interesting, throw in Leadership. If the villain is spending resources on having it and he doesn't have infinite resources, it shouldn't increase his encounter's CR.

1b) Fine, but make it PC level.

2b) If you're going to use point buy with NPCs, match it to the PCs' point buy.

3b) I'm not a fan of our broken 3.5 became, the entire reason Pathfinder is popular is because it allowed people to escape the power builds and feats. Granted that is just natively seaping into Pathfinder just due to more content ("bloat" as some would say), but there are plenty of poeple who would rather it wasn't used. If you allow PCs to choose 3.5 stuff, then go for it.

4b) I think I read somewhere that bosses typically get max HP. My advice is to build the character, then compare its capabilities to the monster creation table, find what level each of its statistics are going to be at, and then average them to get its CR. In Pathfinder a great deal of GMs are spoiled by the rule saying that NPCs always have this or that CR, but it is important to double check. Hell, people are so spoiled by it that they say D&D 5E's method for deciding monster CR is whack even if it offers you a more balanced and less over/under CR result. SOS and SOD are fairly important and should have no problem affecting enemies. It sucks when your BBEG just gets shut down, but then again that is one of the big reasons they tend to be something immune to most mind affecting: if you want your boss to be resistant to SOS and SOD then make them some sort of Construct, Outsider or Undead.


I'm not sure I like the "Primal" idea. It feels kind of cheap. I like to build my NPCs to have attainable statistics, so my players don't feel cheated by DM shenanigans.

If one of my players asks after the fight, "How did he do that!?" I want to be able to point to something in a book that they have access to, or at least something in one of the Bestiaries or Monster Manuals.

I like the magus, but it doesn't get enough high level spells for my taste.

BBEG will probably have levels in EK, the Sorcerer is just a starting point.

I'm thinking if I build the guy up to level 15, it should be plenty to survive the PCs, yet still give him room to "grow" before the final showdown. Does this sound good?

I'm not worried about incapacitating the entire party, just enough of them to make the rest back down and "let the guy escape". If one of my PCs tries to solo run down the BBEG after he turned the Wizard into a babbling idiot and the Rouge into a sack of potatoes, I'll probably tell the player, "You know this guy is out of your league, right? He will likely kill you if you pursue." If they insist, then I have no qualms with killing their character. (I could stand to be a bit more lethal as a GM anyway)

If the PCs start to win, I can just have the BBEG have Contingency tied to teleport upon his death. He and all of his stuff just poofs back to his BBEG lair where a cleric casts resurrection on him.

As for a good reason for having him not kill the PCs, I think I'll go with, "BBEG needs henchmen to do dirty work, and the PCs fit the bill. Through trickery, force, or persuasion, the PCs WILL help him."

Sovereign Court

Encountering a foe that they can't defeat can be really cool.

The whole idea of him toying with them for multiple rounds? Not so much.

If you're going to have this encounter - I'd suggest the encounter be that the PCs have a macguffin that the BBEG wants. He doesn't care about them one way or the other; he just wants the macguffin! So - he takes the macguffin (telekinesis disarm maybe) and leaves (flying off/teleportation etc.) - and there is no possible way that the PCs can stop him. If they try - he might use that same telekinesis to literally toss them around like rag dolls.

But having him toy with them for multiple rounds? (IRL time likely at least an hour as the players spend extra time trying to figure it out.) Lame.

(Think Gannandorf in Ocarina of Time when you open up the chamber where the triforce is stored. There's no pointless combat - he just does it, and you get the impression that he's a badass.)


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I almost always advise against planning an encounter that you know the PCs will lose. It is extremely tough to make that fun and scary, rather than annoying and unsatisfying for your players. If you are determining the ending in that fashion, just go to a cut scene and describe what happens rather than pretending that what the players do matters.

I could see this working with a partial victory scenario though. If the PCs are able to foil the plot in some way, come out with a 'win'. The the bad guy personally being able to defeat them if he wanted, and not even breaking a sweat while doing so, is mitigated if despite that, they still managed to make the bad guy have a really bad day.

Coming up with something for them to foil that is reasonable and serious enough for them to feel like it is a win is a challenge of course, and equally difficult is coming up with why and how the big bad defeats without killing is still a challenge as has been discussed above.


thflame wrote:

I'm not sure I like the "Primal" idea. It feels kind of cheap. I like to build my NPCs to have attainable statistics, so my players don't feel cheated by DM shenanigans.

If one of my players asks after the fight, "How did he do that!?" I want to be able to point to something in a book that they have access to, or at least something in one of the Bestiaries or Monster Manuals.

I agree. Sorry if my post was in a vacuum of this one situation. I tell all players that I use some 3rd party materials, at my discretion, before we start playing. I also let them request 3rd party materials that they like (subject to my approval; I don't think everything is setting-appropriate or balanced enough to use). I also tell them that some 3rd-party stuff is ultra rare so starting PCs won't have access, but if they find it in game they can gain access later.

Primal energy works like that. No first level PC can have it, but I slowly introduce it into the game. My group is 4th level now and they did some research on how to destroy an evil artifact they found. In the course of that research, they learned a little bit about Primal energy. Now they know that there is another kind of magic in the world, a Primal magic, that transcends anything mortals can use. One of them even said he wants to learn how he can get Primal himself - the guy at the temple where he was researching told him to consider taking the Starstone trial (success means becoming a demigod). The player decided to wait a little while...

So now the stage is set. I can create a bad guy with a little bit of Primal energy (a drop in the bucket of what Saranrae or Pharasma, etc., can wield) and when he uses it they'll probably be a little awestruck and even afraid - now they know they're facing a demigod (or something similar).

In fact, I tend to use it more as the campaign goes on into higher levels - it blows the crap out of Rocket Tag and can turn one-round encounters into epic battles that everyone remembers for years. And I've had many players "ascend" and acquire Primal energy, sometimes early in their career. I had an oracle get it at 5th level once - he didn't know his god had transformed him into a quasi-divine being and he mainly infused his healing spells with Primal to make them function as if Maximized, he could do it 5 times total and regained one use each day. He didn't even know he could do other things until he was about 10th level and met another primal NPC who trained him a little.

Used correctly, it never feels cheap and I can always point to a source. I've found it livens the game a whole lot. When my long-time players sit around and reminisce about previous campaigns, many of their favorite moments involved Primal powers (theirs and their enemies'). I heartily recommend it to all GMs.


Dave Justus wrote:
If you are determining the ending in that fashion, just go to a cut scene and describe what happens

I'm no fan of cut scenes (I assume you were kidding anyway).

I am the mighty Dragonborn! I run through dungeon after dungeon, slaying hordes of ancient enemies. I slay countless dragons. I slay daedra and master assassins and entire armies when I want to!

Oh, here's a cutscene where I get bonked on the head by one guy and I'm knocked out like a child...

Always feels kinda wrong to me...


Claxon wrote:
Part of the general contract between a GM and their players is that the GM is supposed to present reasonable, and at time difficult and challenging encounters. But they should always have a significant chance of being won by the PCs (50% chance the PCs can win with a high likelihood of incurring character deaths but not TPK).

I was going to say how absurd I thought the idea that "players are incapable of starting fights they can't win" was (like if low-level characters are contracted to rescue some folks abducted by kobolds, and it turns out that the kobolds were intending to use these people as an hors d'ouevre/tribute for an ancient dragon that's waking up, I don't think the PCs should be able to expect to be able to hang around and kill the dragon just because they're special because they're the PCs. I'm not going to stat out a dozen different versions of the dragon for the dozen different times during the campaign the PCs could conceivably fight it, but if the players *really* want to fight the dragon they likely can't kill, I also won't say "no.")

But then I read:

Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
1a) It can be a good idea in TTRPGs. You need to decide if your group is playing a GAME or if it is in a ROLEPLAYING SETTING. The difference is that GAMES assume that the PCs will be able to overcome pretty much anything they run into, and ROLEPLAYING SETTINGS assume that the PCs exist in a world that isn't connected or linked to their levels in any way: if they decide to go poke a king, he'll most likely be CR 11 or so, his combined army's CR will be higher than 30 and he'll probably kill the PCs with no problems if they are foolish enough to challenge him.

and realized that we're just looking for fundamentally different things from this kind of game. I would urge everybody to reconsider that the "general assumptions" they or their groups operate under are not, in fact, universal. Personally, my campaigns tend to have lots of fights that the PCs could start but almost certainly would not win, just to underline that having a hammer doesn't mean every problem is a nail (and also "you can pick a fight with whomever you want, so choose carefully.")

So, cheers.

To the OP though, I think "the PCs realize they can't win here, and so beat a hasty (if not expeditious) retreat" is probably a better solution than "PCs get thrashed, but not killed." Simply being able to choose when to run away (and "villain laughs at the PCs who are fleeing" is less artificial than "villain thinks you're too pitiful to kill") gives the party agency that they wouldn't have if they are defeated and then spared. Probably best to send them to the dungeon to accomplish two tasks- a) get the macguffin and b) kill the bad guy, and let them accomplish the first task but not the second. Partial or complicated victories are more interesting than total victories or total defeats, after all.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
To the OP though, I think "the PCs realize they can't win here, and so beat a hasty (if not expeditious) retreat" is probably a better solution than "PCs get thrashed, but not killed."

What can also work amazingly well here is to have the PCs take on an epic encounter that revolves around a small group of enemies (1 - Number of PCs). Allow the PCs to win this encounter by the skin of their teeth at full power.

The next the the PCs see a similar encounter that is even bigger, they wont want to fight it because, "Wait. Are those the things that...yup, yup we're fu-." Now, have this group grovel before something else that the PCs can't see and call it master/mistress. Make sure these enemies that almost trounced the PCs visibly hate their subservient nature so it is obvious that if they thought they could win, they would rush whoever they're cowtowing to and kill him/her without a second thought.

If you absolutely want the PCs to face the BBEG, then the easiest way to make them feel dread is to have the BBEG cast some pretty absurd spells that more or less make him untouchable for the PCs. After a few rounds of him making fun of how helpless they are, have him start toying with them. Dominate Person with "Punch yourself in the face until you pass out, then rinse and repeat until the spell wears off" is a favorite.

Another standby is to have him cast a spell that makes it so he can't be moved, then for him to cast a modified version of each of the damaging wall spells around himself in a sphere. Make sure he has Arcane Sight cast with Permenancy and he can see the PCs due to their magical gear.

If someone actually hurts him, have him get angry and cast something that has a likelihood of 1-shotting the person: Disintegrate works. Of course, have the spell's power knock a finger off or something so Reincarnate works. I do caution about using this 1-shot to show power bit too much, as it tends to get old fast. Plus, dominate person with "rip your own balls off" is much nastier than "die screaming!"

Part of being scared of running into someone is the knowledge that you're out of your league. People tend to dread things they don't think they can "get lucky" against. This is entirely the reason why the enemies in Amnesia: The Dark Descent are more frightening and threatening than the enemies in Dead Space: You can't kill the Amnesia enemies, but you mow down the Dead Space enemies.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Part of the general contract between a GM and their players is that the GM is supposed to present reasonable, and at time difficult and challenging encounters. But they should always have a significant chance of being won by the PCs (50% chance the PCs can win with a high likelihood of incurring character deaths but not TPK).
I was going to say how absurd I thought the idea that "players are incapable of starting fights they can't win" was (like if low-level characters are contracted to rescue some folks abducted by kobolds, and it turns out that the kobolds were intending to use these people as an hors d'ouevre/tribute for an ancient dragon that's waking up, I don't think the PCs should be able to expect to be able to hang around and kill the dragon just because they're special because they're the PCs. I'm not going to stat out a dozen different versions of the dragon for the dozen different times during the campaign the PCs could conceivably fight it, but if the players *really* want to fight the dragon they likely can't kill, I also won't say "no.")

Yes, but the PCs aren't "choosing" this fight, which is a significant difference. If players come up against an ancient red dragon at level 5 they should probably have an idea of how under matched they are for such a fight. But that doesn't seem to be what the OP is suggesting. It seems more like he's going to force them into a fight where they are unaware of the strength of their enemy. And then the enemy is going to toy around with them and not kill them "because reasons".

It'd be a bit like having the PCs walk into an ancient dragon's den with no warning of what it contained and then having the dragon curb stomp the PCs but not eat them. It doesn't really make much sense without coming up with a very strong reason.

The Exchange

First,
I'd design it so that the players "choose" the fight. Design a few clues that are ambiguous. The clues are pointing to something they want that is to go either to place A (Investigate the crypts beneath the church of Sarenrae) or place B (The academae of magic). Whichever one they pick happens to be the wrong one where the BBEG is.

Second,
When they show up they find the BBEG having just defeated the NPCs at said location and is in the process of sacrificing them. (He's specifically prepared the vast majority of his repetoire with nonlethal spells specifically because he needs to sacrifice people.)

Third,
The PCs show up just in time. Prevent said BBEG from completing some/most/all of the sacrifices. They get in some good licks. He defends himself with his remaining (low level) nonlethal spells and actually engages in melee because he's running low.

Fourth,
If the PCs do really well well he uses his last remaining high level spell to teleport away, cursing the PCs for foiling his plans and promising to meet them again. Alternately, whenever the PCs are right at the razor's edge of failure, something happens (hopefully because one of the PCs do something heroic). Either the BBEG's summon shows up but NOT under the BBEG's control and forces the BBEG to flee and he makes a deal with the PCs not to kill them in exchange for an as yet undeclaired future favor, or possibly the cavalry arrives. Thanking the PCs for preventing whatever apocalypse.

The only 'flaw' i see here is that forcing the BBEG to flee is often considered a success and thus awards XP.


Check out the Devilbound template.

Fire resistance, improved armor class, SLA, regeneration... all good stuff.

I use this one a lot on BBEG that are intended to be cocky, because players don't expect a humanoid to REGENERATE.

Even if they drop him, he just comes back... :D


I skimmed through this thread, rather than reading every post super in-depth, so if I repeat advice, I apologize.

I did see a lot of "that's a good idea; there should/can be fights the party can't win" and "that's a horrible idea; players/I hate to run up against an impossible encounter". I can see both sides of the argument, but the point seems moot since you seem intent on doing it.

I, as a player, tend to always have the mentality that my character should be trying their hardest, and I tend to not like to back down or let bad guys get a way; I can be persuaded if the rest of the party has leveler heads than I do and suggest such a strategy, but beyond that I tend to be the "rush-stupidly-to-his-death" kind of PC.

Some suggestions for the battle:

Have the BBEG display some sort of easily identifiable, high level power. An example would be casting Prismatic Wall. Everyone knows what it is, and that it's dangerous, and the spellcasters could easily know that it's a very high level spell and only a very high level (i.e.: dangerous) spellcaster could cast it.

A spell like Force Wall, Prismatic Wall, etc., could be used to separate BBEG from the party, thereby negating the need to have an encounter at all. I picture something like the party just arriving at the last room of a dungeon, and seeing the shiny-golden-object-of-awe (SGOoA) on it's pedestal across the room, only to be suddenly trapped behind a Forcecage, Wall of Force, or whatever else, as the BBEG comes up from behind. He gives a passing thanks to the adventurers for clearing the way for him so he didn't have to waste his time, grabs the SGOoA and bids them farewell.

I know you said you don't like to use "plot armor"; that you like your BBEG to actually be statted out, but as was mentioned, dice rolls can go badly. If you want it to be unwinnable, you could have the BBEG just shrug off their efforts, but if you want to explain why maybe some previously cast Invisibility (maybe Greater), Spell Resistance, Shield, and Stoneskin spells; remember, the BBEG is getting the drop on the party, so he can come prepared and can strike when the party seems most vulnerable; perhaps right after a big fight, when the party is expecting to have time to lick their wounds, the Cleric is going around about to cast Heal spells, the Barbarian has let his rage drop and is now fatigued, etc.

I think the suggestions for save-or-suck spells is good, but again, they could roll really well; something like a Wall of Force takes people out of the fight without them needing a save. Granted, you can't hurt them either, but that's a good thing in this situation; it gives you a reason why he doesn't kill them, which is another concern that was pointed out. BBEG monologue is so much of a trope that it's almost become a trope-in-a-trope for monologing to be referenced in/during a monologue. This isn't always a bad thing, but if you want to avoid a reverse deus ex machina wherein the all-powerful BBEG doesn't just immediately kill them, this gives you a way to accomplish that.


This kind of thing works best if the Big Bad Evil Guy is actually a Big Bad Good Guy on a mission that opposes the PCs. Then being merciful makes sense, and sets up an opportunity to reveal the actual bad guy later.

Mind Controlled/Geas'd Angels are great for this sort of thing.


What about a boss like the Terminator in T2? The PCs can knock it down but it just keeps getting back up. The monster doesn't even need to have a strong offence. The PCs have to stay on the run until they can figure out what kills it. Or better yet, they have to role play their way out of the situation, figure out what it really wants and make a deal.


Be very cautious for the situation in which they actually kill it.


Consider how he could show his power even before fight has even starter. For example using fireballs to light candles or kill some rats.

Works better if there is big room with hundreds of hiding places giving cover to players when they came near or tries to spy. And if he notice one guy, what would be better than thinking too cleverly.

"Did you think that I wouldn't know a classic distraction when I see it? Say goodbye your friends."

Then other side of room will explode with the strongest spell he had ready.


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Bunnyboy wrote:
Consider how he could show his power even before fight has even starte[d]

Another option is for him to not even be there.

Imagine that the PCs are seeing an illusion that is being maintained by Mr. Big-Bad's familiar (probably familiar spell or something) with the big bad casting spells through one of the two rings wondrous item. Let's say he never actually casts spells that leave a trail.

You could have the PCs taking swings at something they can't hurt until they're all dominated and taking turns kicking each other in the crotch.


DM_Blake wrote:
thflame wrote:

I'm not sure I like the "Primal" idea. It feels kind of cheap. I like to build my NPCs to have attainable statistics, so my players don't feel cheated by DM shenanigans.

If one of my players asks after the fight, "How did he do that!?" I want to be able to point to something in a book that they have access to, or at least something in one of the Bestiaries or Monster Manuals.

I agree. Sorry if my post was in a vacuum of this one situation. I tell all players that I use some 3rd party materials, at my discretion, before we start playing. I also let them request 3rd party materials that they like (subject to my approval; I don't think everything is setting-appropriate or balanced enough to use). I also tell them that some 3rd-party stuff is ultra rare so starting PCs won't have access, but if they find it in game they can gain access later.

Primal energy works like that. No first level PC can have it, but I slowly introduce it into the game. My group is 4th level now and they did some research on how to destroy an evil artifact they found. In the course of that research, they learned a little bit about Primal energy. Now they know that there is another kind of magic in the world, a Primal magic, that transcends anything mortals can use. One of them even said he wants to learn how he can get Primal himself - the guy at the temple where he was researching told him to consider taking the Starstone trial (success means becoming a demigod). The player decided to wait a little while...

So now the stage is set. I can create a bad guy with a little bit of Primal energy (a drop in the bucket of what Saranrae or Pharasma, etc., can wield) and when he uses it they'll probably be a little awestruck and even afraid - now they know they're facing a demigod (or something similar).

In fact, I tend to use it more as the campaign goes on into higher levels - it blows the crap out of Rocket Tag and can turn one-round encounters into epic battles that everyone remembers for years. And...

The publisher for primal order is a company called Wizards of the Coast. They later acquired TSR and the rights to D&D. If you look at the third edition Deities and Demigods you will see a lot of the ideas from primal order. Primal order was in my opinion better because it could be used with any game system. It allowed the GM to occasionally bend the rules in a consistent and logical manner. It also gave a framework for power beyond what mortals can control.

Paizo’s approach to deities is that they don’t have stat blocks because anything with a stat block can be defeated. While this approach works it makes it a little harder for the GM to incorporate deities in his game. DM_Blake is right that properly used it can be a valuable tool for the GM. Overuse of it would make the mythic rules look like a preschoolers crayon drawings.


thflame wrote:

This is mostly a curiosity based question, but I'm wondering if having a "boss" that is designed to toy with the PCs, then all but crush them, then walk off without finishing them off.

Here's the idea:

PCs (who's classes and abilities have yet to be determined) stumble upon the BBEG way before they are ready to fight him. The BBEG is not interested in killing the PCs, but doesn't mind toying with them. After a lengthy battle of trading somewhat heavy hits from the NPC, he get bored with the party and hits them with some less-than-lethal spell that incapacitates either all of them, or enough of them that the remaining PCs realize that it would be stupid to carry on.

Statistics wise, I'm thinking a custom Sorcerer template (replace the bloodline stuff with d8 HD, medium BAB, light armor/martial weapon proficiency). The idea here is that the BBEG can handle himself in melee and use his low level spells to toy with the PCs, then bust out a high level crowd control spell to incapacitate the party as he walks off chuckling.

I'm not sure what level to put him at. I want him to be hit-able rarely, but have plenty of HP to tank what hits he does take. I want him to have high enough saves that the party can't incapacitate him.

The BBEG will be using mostly debuff spells to soften people up (touch of idiocy, ray of enfeeblement, ray of clumsiness, bestow curse, etc.)

I'm thinking of throwing this guy at the PCs fairly early (level 5 or so) and he would go on to become the final boss (where he is hopefully defeated by the PCs).

I'm unsure whether the PCs should just run into him on an unrelated quest or based on poor information.

Examples:

The PCs are going to retrieve some item from a dungeon and the BBEG just happens to be looking for the same item. They run into each other and things deteriorate from there.

OR

The PCs are sent out to deal with some little known sorcerer who has been causing trouble. The quest giver is under the impression that the BBEG isn't very...

In my campaign I have 4 lv 5 gestalted characters. So they are pretty high up there in the power scale.

I had them dungeon crawl, and face some relatively difficult enemies.

And at the end of the whole thing I placed an undead Warlord (3rd party Undead) challenging the PC's at a 1 v 1 Honorable duel. Only Death through an honerable duel can grant him peace, and if they win they also get the treasure he is sitting on. I cut his atk to half, and his damage bonus to half, and the PCs took turns trying to kill him, and they were one by one wiped out. But He is a lawful undead and by duel rules, he sheathed his sword and sat back on his throne when he knock out a player.

The players came really close to beating him, it was certainly in their reach, but 1 lucky crit by the warlord, and a couple of bad rolls from the PC's(also they were a bit thin on class abilities) it was not going to be favorable for them to win. When 2 of the PC's went down, the 2 other decided to heal them up, and then come back another day.

You need a villain that can more than certainly wreck your PC's but not waste them. If anything, you have to instill fear in the PC's not apathy in the BBEG. Your PC's should want to fear for their lives.

There are some cool spells at your disposal to do that.
1. Enervation. Point a finger at a PC, and watch them shrink in power. Maybe cast it on different characters, and have them all worry about becoming too weak to press on.

2. Mirror Image. The bane of so many Melee focus combatants. At high levels, this spell will certainly make focusing and reliably dealing damage very VERY hard. Sure AOE spells will chip away, but it wont get rid of the illusions with anything short of dispel magic.

3. Invisibility. Always a staple of bad guys. Cant hit what you cant target.

4. Summon monster. If this BBEG can cast enervation, why not summon monster IV? Coupled with invisibility this BBEG, can summon 1d4+1 Fiendish Wolfs. Or he can summon 1d3 LARGE apes. Or he can summon or a nice Hell Hound for that nice cone of fire breath.

5. Crushing despair is a good spell, that will weaken the PC's and make them suck a little bit more.

6 Literally any enchantment spells. Give him spell focus enchantment, and watch the PC's act confused and turn on each other.

All in all, The BBEG, should know he is top banana. And He should be more than capable of being taken down. But your main objective is scaring the PC's senseless. Many players hate the whole "come back and try try again" tactic, however somethings are just not doable at low levels. And as others have said, if they do manage to kill him, then have his wife/son/brother avenge him. Or have this significant other to cause spooky things in the region in an attempt to bring back the BBEG back to life.

Last word: Have him be tough, not invisible. Make the players suck, not die outright. From a meta perspective the players should know that the soonest a character can cast eneveration would be lv8. This should somewhat let players know that they are way over their heads.
Some players hate the idea of being beaten by a boss that is way harder CR that they should encounter, but I have read that players like the feeling of becoming stronger and more powerful. So a couple of levels later, they meet up with the BBEG, and they start pounding away at him and they feel a sense of accomplishment for having become stronger.


The best encounter design I've heard basically says "Forget about CR and just focus on designing an interesting encounter" - which, usually, means doing a bit more than walking into a room and pounding some faces in. Remember, it's the players' story, and in general you should try to give them some sort of agency whenever you can. You don't want to make them feel like their choices are irrelevant, but you do want them to recognize that some things shouldn't be faced right away.

That said, you don't have to attack them directly. The villain could be attacking their town, for example, and only be seen in the distance behind a small army of guards.


If you are looking to do this to the group around level 5 then it is a bit easier as, hopefully, the group wont have access to a lot of counters just yet.

I would see your BBEG as a Magus or Mesmerist most likely. Though even a bard could likely pull it off. So really, any one of the 3/4 BAB classes.

For the set up, give the BBEG a reason to not be spec'd for killing. The party has a Mcguffin the BBEG doesnt want to risk damaging or the Mcguffin is a person that has to be taken alive. To accomplish that the bad guy(s) are using non lethal everywhere, perhaps the minions dont know who the target is or cant be trusted to not kill everyone if there is only one person they are supposed to take alive? Spell wise, lots of cheap Grease scrolls/wands, Pit spells, Hold Person and the like. The minions can die off, the BBEG can shrug off a decent chunk of hurt and once they have their target they just leave because the players arent worth the wasted time.

Your villian may be under a Geas to not take any lives, or has to present as not murderous to convince some other power to grant them favours.

They could be a Blackblade Magus and their blackblade takes over when the BBEG goes for the kill, perhaps the blade's purpose is to cause traumatic events and push people into reaching potential or something.

Liberty's Edge

The BBEG wants to twist the knife, maybe because the PCs do not go down as quickly as he thought, or because they refuse to admit his superiority.

And dead bodies feel no pain. While living impotent enemies are so much more fun for all the anguish you can milk out of them ;-)


These things are really hard to pull off and even when mechanically successful, they often fall flat at the table in my experience. I think it's better to find another way to sell the NPC to the party than this. I'm a fan of the "I'm just going to take the McGuffin and leave some incredibly powerful minions to fight you, that you can barely defeat, but are obviously my lowest, lamest followers" approach over this, for example.

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