How to beat fatigue


Advice


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Got a GM who is instituting a house rule: Any arcane spellcasters casting spells will need to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + spell level of the spell being cast) or gain the fatigued condition. I guess he's accustomed to spellcasting being a taxing affair, like it is in many tropes, such as Raistlin from Dragonlance.

So, how do I beat fatigue? Advice?


You rest for eight hours.


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Same way you beat every fort save, cloaks of resistance, belts of constitution, great fortitude (or whatever it's called), and not dumping CON.

Otherwise potions of lesser restoration instantly cure fatigue.


paladin with the fatigue mercy, lame oracle gains immunity to fatigue, Cord of Stubborn Resolve

Silver Crusade

Soothing Performance (12th lvl Bard) removes fatigue.


I think there's an ioun stone that does it.

But if you try to get around the DMs houserule like this I have a feeling it will come back to bite you.


You could just put up with it - the penalties are pretty minor for a character who isn't fighting in melee.


I am not against the idea of spellcasting being a more elaborate affair rather than an push button instant affair, so having it be a little taxing could be interesting.

But if I understand what your DM has done it is way more than just a little taxing.

Cast and fail one Fortitude save in a battle and your fatigued, fail a second Fortitude save in the same battle and you become exhausted at which point you are possibly also effected by encumbrance.

It could all still work to majorly lower arcane spell caster power if the NPC spell casters are also affected. It is a whole world of asthmatic arcane casters.

Silver Crusade

Invigorate (A LvL 1 Bard Spell) temporarly removes Fatique other than that the usual (Lesser Rest. etc).

Invigorate is an excellent choice for Barbarians during fights


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Found out more about the house rule. Apparently it's an option rule from the Dragonlance campaign setting.

The full rule is every time an arcane caster casts a spell, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Spell Level) or become fatigued. If the spellcaster fails it twice (for casting two spells) he is exhausted. Failing a third time causes the spellcaster to lose consciousness altogether. None of these debilitating conditions state a duration.

Rubbish! I'm gonna' try and talk him out of it, or else just not play an arcane caster. Just not worth it to basically be limited to three spells an encounter.


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Three spells is pessimistic. Let's say you're a caster with Con 14 and a Fortitude feat - which you probably should be taking in this situation, but is a generally useful thing to have anyway. That's a +4 Fort save (and it could be higher with a trait). At level 1, you need to roll 7 on a d20 to be OK. You should pass around two-thirds of all your saves. So on average you can cast nine spells before losing consciousness, which should be enough to keep you going until you can get to the point where you can make casual use of Lesser Restoration.

On the other hand, playing a Cleric or Oracle or Druid seems like an easier option.

The Exchange

Cord of Stubborn Resolve


How to beat fatigue: Be a human with the Heart of the Fields alternate racial trait. In the morning of an adventuring day, consume the drug Allnight (only 25 gp if you craft it yourself). You now cannot be effected by fatigue for 8 hours. At the end of the 8 hour period, use your Heart of the Fields ability to negate the exhaustion that would normally come. Repeat each day as needed.

How to beat your GM's silliness: Be a sorcerer with the Psychic bloodline. Your spells are now psychic, not arcane.

Grand Lodge

I'm a huge fan of Dragonlance. But Raistlin had a dumped Con and was fighting magically within himself to keep Fist_____(not even gonna attempt to spell) possession spirit in check. He had so much happening to him inwardly even walking great distances was taxing on him.. Later books like war of the brothers Raistlin went through time and replaced Fist____ and no longer had that burden and was able to do anything he wanted. Was not as taxing anymore to cast spells. All he had left to fight was his birth sickness. Which was another compounded reason magic was so taxing for Raistlin more so than any other Magi.

This was not as sever for other Magi of that setting. Many of them acted like pathfinder...using a few spells was normal...casting all their spells made them tired and needing rest.

I'd ask him to remove this house rule or limit it to low levels when a caster is in the process of building his power.


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Actually, reading over your description again, I'm not so sure being immune to the fatigue itself or negating it somehow is going to help, if you still get exhausted anyway on the second failed save and fall unconscious on the third. It looks like you need to actually be able make the save itself.

Fortunately, the save isn't that hard to make if you build for it.

For example:
Elf wizard or witch
14 Con (16 before racial penalty)
Desert Runner alternate racial trait
one of the nine familiars that grants a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves
one of the dozen or so traits that grants a +1 bonus on Fortitude saves

+2 Con +4 racial +2 familiar +1 trait = +9

The character now makes their save on a 2 for any spell they can cast, without even taking Great Fortitude. And since any self-respecting character is going to gain increases in Fortitude save bonus more quickly than they'll gain new spell levels, you should be 95% fine for your entire adventuring career.

For charisma based casters, ifrit works nicely as well. Their Forge-Hardened alternate racial trait only gives a +2 bonus rather than a +4, but they don't have a constitution penalty, so it pretty much evens out in the end. If you don't have a familiar (through the Arcane bloodline, bloodline familiars, Aberrant Tumor, or one of the feat paths), Great Fortitude could shore up the difference.

Or you could just be a sorcerer with the Psychic bloodline.


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Slap the GM. He has issues.


Coffee is 1 copper per cup, and two of those reduce Fatigue penalties.
It's no solution, but it's dirt-cheap.


Be an android. They don't suffer from fatigue.
Or make friends with a Community domain cleric.

Shadow Lodge

If I remember correctly, the Curse of the Magi only kicked after a Wizard (and only a Wizard) had cast 1/2 of their daily allotment of spells, not after every single spell.

Anyway, you should ask if you could have taken the Test of High Sorcery and walk away with an Artifact and a magic weapon for free, too.


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10 + spell level seems very doable, actually. Great Fortitude, improved great fortitude, a trait, a CON of 16 and a familiar is +8. Play a human with heart of the fields and you get two free get-out-of-jail cards, making it extremely unlikely you'll ever fail. Your Fort will rise higher than the DC as long as you are mindful of it so that'll eventually be fail only on a 1 with two free avoidances - plus fatigue isn't that bad of an effect anyway for a caster.

I would not be angry at him for instigating this rule if it is clearly spelled out before the campaign begins. However, if someone plays a caster and manages to optimise fort as they should to trivialise the houserule, and then he proceeds to make the check more difficult mid-game, it is time to get angry and/or leave.

Or just play a cleric.


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Phoenix M wrote:
Slap the GM. He has issues.

More like he's trying to put a damper on the Caster/Martial disparity. Which isn't unfounded, there are many subjects that coattail the Casters down to a more managable level for Martials to be competent with, my personal favorite being the "Remove 7-9 Spells, but keep the slots for Metamagic" option.

But back to this, it's being executed poorly.

A "three strikes and your out system" doesn't really solve the problem for spellcasters, whose vast ability does has a spelled limit. If he was going to propose this system, then he might as well eliminate spells per day being a mechanic too. It otherwise requires that you become a Con-based spellcaster. Pre-errata Scarred Witch Doctor would laugh at this, and the Kineticist (I believe they're Con-based casters) laughs at this too, especially since their magic is technically Psionic, not Arcane.

Another decent means to reduce Caster power is to not allow them to chain-cast spells or SLAs, implementing an internal cooldown system, so to speak. This is a big hit for Blasters (who are already encroaching on Martial territory as it is), and is quite a hit for those who need to cast a certain spell over and over again (i.e. it cuts down on players using healbots, and more being preventers of damage, as well as cutting back Summon-based casters as well).


The whole debate on caster vs. martial... You know what, each class is designed to deal with encounters differently. If your characters only see one fight in a day yes the caster wins hands down, now if you play a running battle over the course of a day the casters are done before second breakfast leaving the martial builds on their own. If stealth is the priority you average martial and average caster are both screwed to the rogue types.

Not every game needs to be about damage per round, if that's what you want find an xbox or something. Sit down, enjoy the company of friends, and socialize.

Sorry for the angry rant.


In addition to the suggestions in the thread maybe it's time to play a Mystic Theurge. Cleric for the restorative spells and better Fort saves plus spells in general are lower level until much later when items etc. should make this a non issue.


Step 1: Get a weapon with invigorating

Step 2: Kill stuff with said weapon


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Phoenix M wrote:

The whole debate on caster vs. martial... You know what, each class is designed to deal with encounters differently. If your characters only see one fight in a day yes the caster wins hands down, now if you play a running battle over the course of a day the casters are done before second breakfast leaving the martial builds on their own. If stealth is the priority you average martial and average caster are both screwed to the rogue types.

Not every game needs to be about damage per round, if that's what you want find an xbox or something. Sit down, enjoy the company of friends, and socialize.

Sorry for the angry rant.

This has been shown to be completely incorrect so many times I think the record has been worn right through. To summarise:

Fighters have HP as a hard limiter, and casters are not limited by spells/day after the first few levels.

Rogues actually have a pretty abysmal stealth given that it is one of their primary draws. At level 3 a wizard with invisibility, a decent DEX and ranks in stealth has a check more than 20 points higher than the rogue.

It's funny that you then make the comparison between casters and damage per round... given that full casters generally have poor DPR and many interesting/flavourful options available to them, while martial characters are the ones that rely on damage/combat as their primary draw. People complain about low tier classes generally because they are ineffective out of combat most especially (except the base rogue, which is not really effective anywhere). It's not fun to sit down in the company of your friends and contribute nothing or little effective to the social game except maybe damage, - a situation which does happen at higher levels of play (yes, 'it doesn't happen in my games', of course it isn't a constant).

Anyway, should probably take this to one of the many 'caster vs martial' threads now if you want to continue, not that there is much point. This is all old ground.


Honestly, there's not much you can do. If your DM was to roll Fatigue, doing the say you described is non optimal.
You just focus a bit on CON, some feats and you will auto pass that DC always, ala old school concentration checks, which at certain point you didn't even roll.
If he makes a Concentration check of 10+DOUBLE spell level, things are different, and it might be possible you fail more often.
If you find a way around this, like human racial trait or item to make you immune, DM could rule that you can't avoid this fatigue, and it might be possible you can't even cure it, putting you a hard limit.

You either need more info, or ask the DM to check Sphere of Powers. Never read it myself, but I've read that many are happy with this system to limit caster's powers.


Lesser restoration removes fatigue, buy a wand of that?

Casters should have a huge con score anyway, its your 2nd best stat, so you should be fine mostly. Exhausted is a brutal condition though

Sovereign Court

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If the GM has a grudge against arcane casters, don't play an arcane caster. In general, don't play the thing the GM has a grudge against.


What level are you?
What race are you?

What options do you have available (book-wise)?

Does this fortitude save count as a spell itself, for the results of abilities like Steel-Soul (dwarf)?

My initial thoughts are to go with a dwarf Empyreal blooded sorcerer taking a bloodline familiar instead of heavenly fire, and investing into Steel Soul so you get +4 on saves, in addition to your +2 CON from race. Throw in a trait that bumps fortitude and you end up with +6 right there before base save from class and before you even buy in your CON stat.

You will also have the best will save ever.


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Ascalaphus wrote:
If the GM has a grudge against arcane casters, don't play an arcane caster. In general, don't play the thing the GM has a grudge against.

This.

Grand Lodge

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If a GM has a grudge against a class...its best for the DM to just ban it.

I ban gunslingers, all gun archetypes, synth summoners, master summoners and they must pick Unchained Summoner. I even stat absolutely no guns will drop or can be made. I dislike Guns in my fantasy.

A DM should not be afraid to say no if something down right irratates them. Especially if your playing a long 6 months of campaign.


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There is nothing wrong with the GM. This is an expected part of arcane spellcasters in the literature. Don't play a wizard in the Dragonlance setting if you don't like it.

Raistlin's frailty wasn't part of this; that was a curse placed upon him to keep him in check. Every wizard had to deal with the same issues of spellcasting being taxing on Krynn.

My only issue with the rule is that divine casters can be just as powerful and don't have a downside. The moon cycles and extra buffs for casters aren't enough to counteract this drawback in my opinion.

As for beating it, just go with the +fortitude feats. The DC is not really that bad.

Silver Crusade

Well there's the tireless wayfinder for reduced penalties and bonuses against saves, or there's the barbarian's best friend, the flawed Scarlet and Green Cabochon Ioun Stone, which turns any situation of being fatigued into sickened. Sickened won't stack with itself, so you take some minor penalties to ignore the risk forever. Hell, slot the stone into the wayfinder as a stylish way of showing this GM you don't care about their setting's rules.


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Just make sure the GM is also following his own rules for the NPCs/bad guys.

Scarab Sages

Carry several Potions of Invigorate. It at least lets you ignore the effects temporarily. Should get you through the fight unless you fail three in a row or something.

Sovereign Court

On the one hand, there is certainly a lot of settings where spellcasting is physically tiring. But on the other hand, in most of them that is the limit on spellcasting, not spells prepared/spells per day. Shadowrun is an example of a game that puts this trope into practice. There, spellcasting has the potential to deal subdual or lethal damage.

This feels like applying a double limit because the other limit has better flavour.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
master_marshmallow wrote:

What level are you?

What race are you?

What options do you have available (book-wise)?

Does this fortitude save count as a spell itself, for the results of abilities like Steel-Soul (dwarf)?

7.

Human.
All pathfinder books, but with heavy restrictions (no spontaneous casting, no gunslingers); it just doesn't exist on Krynn during the Age we're playing in.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Nawtyit wrote:
Just make sure the GM is also following his own rules for the NPCs/bad guys.

Since it's the Dragonlance setting, I think most of the bad guys are likely to be martials, or over-the-top dragons with martial riders.

Lantern Lodge

So older era Dragonlance? Before they learned how to use wild magic?

If that is the case... remind the GM that wizard magic would therefore be High Sorcery?

Among the wizards, it is only Raistlin Majere who has a health issue which affected his magic. Which is mainly cos he is effectively walking around with a curse on him for being too overpowered.

Most High Sorcery spellcasters have no such issues. Especially more so for the Wizards of High Sorcery. The strength of their powers are more closely tied to the moons that give them their power.

So what the GM should be doing is:
1) Checking what is the alignment of the party's casters and

2) Assign the proper color robe (white, red or black) to them based on the caster's alignment.

3) THEN the GM has to come up with a way to track the Moons' (Solinari, Lunitari and Nuitari) rise and wane.

4) And finally come up with the appropriate buffs and debuffs on the appropriate spell schools and robe colors, depending on which moons are on the rise and which ones are on the wane.

IF the GM wants to give fatigue for spellcasting, then the GM better make sure that each spellcaster is a Raistlin Majere in the making.
Remind him what ONE Raistlin Majere can do and did.

Dark Archive

Just a Mort wrote:
Cord of Stubborn Resolve

This and a wand of Cure Light or Infernal Healing seems like it removes the entire problem essentially and should be affordable at 7th level if he's using regular WBL, though it is a big chunk of your budget spent to overcome a seemingly ridiculous penalty (unless he's also letting you have Raistlins magical power as well). Con bonus so you have a better chance of making saves, should you fail it's simply a small amount of non-lethal, super cheap healing removes it along with any lethal after the fight.


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Druuuuuuuuuuuugsssss, Allnight is 75 gp per dose, immune to fatigue for 8 hours, take once daily


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Secane wrote:
So older era Dragonlance? Before they learned how to use wild magic?

That's correct.

Secane wrote:
If that is the case... remind the GM that wizard magic would therefore be High Sorcery?

Pretty certain he knows already.

Secane wrote:

Among the wizards, it is only Raistlin Majere who has a health issue which affected his magic. Which is mainly cos he is effectively walking around with a curse on him for being too overpowered.

Most High Sorcery spellcasters have no such issues. Especially more so for the Wizards of High Sorcery. The strength of their powers are more closely tied to the moons that give them their power.

I will point that out to him (that only Raistlin really had such significant problems), but it probably doesn't help that we are basically roleplaying out the events of the Dragons of Autumn Twilight novel (which I've not read).

Secane wrote:

So what the GM should be doing is:

1) Checking what is the alignment of the party's casters and

I get to choose my robe color and any non-evil alignment.

Secane wrote:
2) Assign the proper color robe (white, red or black) to them based on the caster's alignment.

Though the GM hasn't specifically said as much, I assume the alignment needs to match the color.

Secane wrote:
3) THEN the GM has to come up with a way to track the Moons' (Solinari, Lunitari and Nuitari) rise and wane.

I'm told he has an electronic calendar-type tool that was made specifically for this purpose.

Secane wrote:
4) And finally come up with the appropriate buffs and debuffs on the appropriate spell schools and robe colors, depending on which moons are on the rise and which ones are on the wane.

This will most likely be a -2, -1, 0, +1, and +2 caster level bonus. That's the way it was done in the old Dragonlance Roleplaying game I think.

Secane wrote:

IF the GM wants to give fatigue for spellcasting, then the GM better make sure that each spellcaster is a Raistlin Majere in the making.

Remind him what ONE Raistlin Majere can do and did.

I've not read any Dragonlance books, so I have no idea what Raistlin was capable of. I'm not entirely certain he's read them either.

Suthainn wrote:
Just a Mort wrote:
Cord of Stubborn Resolve
This and a wand of Cure Light or Infernal Healing seems like it removes the entire problem essentially and should be affordable at 7th level if he's using regular WBL, though it is a big chunk of your budget spent to overcome a seemingly ridiculous penalty (unless he's also letting you have Raistlins magical power as well). Con bonus so you have a better chance of making saves, should you fail it's simply a small amount of non-lethal, super cheap healing removes it along with any lethal after the fight.

There is no divine magic. The gods are all gone, or dead, or something. We are going to have a cleric and a warpriest in the party I'm told, but they would be the first in the campaign world in hundreds of years.

So we can't really assume there are wands of healing floating around town.

I myself will be playing a NG female human wizard with the exploiter wizard archetype. School specialization/robe color is largely thematic at this point. Conceptually, I'm a transmutation specialist. I possess all Core spells of 4th-level or lower, as well as all of the form changing transmutation spells of other books (such as vermin shape).

Ridiculon wrote:
Druuuuuuuuuuuugsssss, Allnight is 75 gp per dose, immune to fatigue for 8 hours, take once daily

But would that work once I failed the save when casting a second spell?

Shadow Lodge

The old Dragonlance Roleplaying book?

Dude. Ask about playing an Irda.

Yes, white robes are Good and tied to Solinari, red robes are Neutral and tied to Lunitari, black robes are Evil and tied to Nuitari.

Yeah, at this time there was no divine magic. Otherwise, just make sure that you've got plenty of things you can do that aren't spells, and you'll do all right. Ask about magic item creation. Wands and scrolls sound like a great way to get around the requirement.

Grand Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:
Secane wrote:
So older era Dragonlance? Before they learned how to use wild magic?

That's correct.

Secane wrote:
If that is the case... remind the GM that wizard magic would therefore be High Sorcery?

Pretty certain he knows already.

Secane wrote:

Among the wizards, it is only Raistlin Majere who has a health issue which affected his magic. Which is mainly cos he is effectively walking around with a curse on him for being too overpowered.

Most High Sorcery spellcasters have no such issues. Especially more so for the Wizards of High Sorcery. The strength of their powers are more closely tied to the moons that give them their power.

I will point that out to him (that only Raistlin really had such significant problems), but it probably doesn't help that we are basically roleplaying out the events of the Dragons of Autumn Twilight novel (which I've not read).

Secane wrote:

So what the GM should be doing is:

1) Checking what is the alignment of the party's casters and

I get to choose my robe color and any non-evil alignment.

Secane wrote:
2) Assign the proper color robe (white, red or black) to them based on the caster's alignment.

Though the GM hasn't specifically said as much, I assume the alignment needs to match the color.

Secane wrote:
3) THEN the GM has to come up with a way to track the Moons' (Solinari, Lunitari and Nuitari) rise and wane.

I'm told he has an electronic calendar-type tool that was made specifically for this purpose.

Secane wrote:
4) And finally come up with the appropriate buffs and debuffs on the appropriate spell schools and robe colors, depending on which moons are on the rise and which ones are on the wane.

This will most likely be a -2, -1, 0, +1, and +2 caster level bonus. That's the way it was done in the old Dragonlance Roleplaying game I think.

Secane wrote:
IF the GM wants to give fatigue for spellcasting, then the GM better make sure that each
...

Well Good is white robes corresponding to the Moon Solinari.

Neutral is Red corresponding to the Moon Lunitari.
Evil is Black corresponding to the Moon Nuitari.

The color of the robes correspond with the 3 moons. The black moon is hardest to see and can only be seen with the most descerning eyes (magical assistance usually). It can be seen when it eclipses but usually not against the black sky.

In the era of Dragons of autumn twilight divine magic was basically non-existent as the Gods pretty much withdraw their influence and left them in the dark.

As far as Alignment matching the Robe you are pretty much right. BUT there has been just a few Magi (Wizards) that have Transended all 3 colors and 1 Magi in particular who (during the Autumn Twilight Era) could move freely between them all. He is the current Archmagi of the White Robes and Tends to stick to the White but has flowed to black and back.

As far as Raistlin Majere and what he is capable of. You should read the Series as Raistlin is one of the most powerful Magi ever written. He is the Master of Time (can freaking time travel), Owner of a Dragon Orb, owner of the Staff of Magi (Basically the Staff of Power) and Master of a tower of High Sorcery. He Starts out as a sickly twin brother filled with loathing and hate. He then becomes the most powerful Archmagi of all time. His power becomes so great he could utter a sentence, wiggle a finger and rule the entire plane. But such things are beneath him as his goals are much more lofty. I really do not want to spoil it if he is just recreating the entire saga. But he starts really coming into power during the Trilogy of Autumn Twilight.


Well, whats the full wording on that rule? if it is just stacking fatigue normally to go from fatigued -> exhausted -> unconscious then you should be able to beat it with a combination of Allnight and using the Heart of the Fields alternate racial trait for humans after the drug wears off.

If its NOT normal fatigue stacking then there really isnt anything you can do, since its circumventing the system anyway (which is purposefully crippling and i don't think i would play a caster if that was the case)

Lantern Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:
I've not read any Dragonlance books, so I have no idea what Raistlin was capable of. I'm not entirely certain he's read them either.

Well... he pretty much just wiped out all the gods of the world single handedly. You know, the simple everyday stuff that solo, OP, physically sick spellcasters do. :P


Secane wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I've not read any Dragonlance books, so I have no idea what Raistlin was capable of. I'm not entirely certain he's read them either.
Well... he pretty much just wiped out all the gods of the world single handedly. You know, the simple everyday stuff that solo, OP, physically sick spellcasters do. :P

that's....a rather interesting interpretation of events.

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