Hell's Vengeance Player's Guide


Hell's Vengeance

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While not something I need for my own character, something addressing worshippers of evil deities other than Asmodeus would be handy. How secretive do they need to be, and so on.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'd like to see a Villain Point system. Similar to Hero Points, but for accomplishing Eeeeeevil goals.

Scarab Sages

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
QuidEst wrote:
While not something I need for my own character, something addressing worshippers of evil deities other than Asmodeus would be handy. How secretive do they need to be, and so on.

I second this. Also, since the old Cheliax Player's Companion had a line about how Thrune bans the worship of chaotic deities and any devil other than Asmodeus, it would be nice to include advice for PCs who wish to play both sides. For instance, a CE necromancer intending to make deals with demons for damnation feats.

Grand Lodge

Safe words, for when things get too evil


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Galnörag wrote:
Safe words, for when things get too evil

My safe word is keep going. Muhahaha


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
logic_poet wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
While not something I need for my own character, something addressing worshippers of evil deities other than Asmodeus would be handy. How secretive do they need to be, and so on.
I second this. Also, since the old Cheliax Player's Companion had a line about how Thrune bans the worship of chaotic deities and any devil other than Asmodeus, it would be nice to include advice for PCs who wish to play both sides. For instance, a CE necromancer intending to make deals with demons for damnation feats.

I am curious about that as well. We already know from the Cheliax campaign setting supplement that worship of devils other than Asmodeus is now legal in Cheliax, and that Queen Abrogail can apparently change the legality of worshiping any deity other than Asmodeus on a whim.

I would have to imagine that for this adventure path she is probably outlawing most LN and LG deities and legalizing most NE and CE deities and hoping that the tradeoff (which would include antagonizing nearly all Hellknight orders) is worth it.


My recollection is that Queen Abrogail has to be pretty choosy about what she outlaws - for example, Iomedae is an actual Cheliaxian who attained godhood after a long string of exceptionally heroic deeds, and is thus both a goddess AND a national hero. So she's pretty popular in Cheliax (and possibly would be the nation's primary religion if Thrune hadn't won the civil war).

Trying to outlaw Iomedae's worship would probably outright provoke another civil war. Abrogail has to settle for forcing the Iomdedaens to pay lip service to Asmodeus instead.

On the other hand, Desna's normally a Varisian goddess, and has never been particularly popular in Cheliax to begin with - it's rare to even find shrines to her. Outlawing Desna's worship would be pretty easy, because she doesn't have much popular support.


IIRC they don't outlaw other religions as long as they don't interfere with the govt.

Grand Lodge Contributor

Cheliax-The Infernal Empire, page 2 wrote:

The veneration of deities other than Asmodeus and subservient entities (archdevils, infernal dukes, malebranche, et al.) is permitted by the grace of Her Infernal Majestrix, Queen Abrogail II of the Thrice-Damned House of Thrune, and may be revoked at any time at her sole discretion. Those practicing these faiths in opposition to the Church of Asmodeus may be declared heretics and tried for their crimes, the penalty being execution or, in the case of clerics of the Dark Prince’s enemies, damnation to Hell. Asmodeus is generous, and those who serve him will be rewarded, even with the ability to follow other gods, as long as none supplant the Archfiend in the hearts of his eternal servants-the people Cheliax.

-Edict 4671.315A.2v5 §15j (Revision 6)

Liberty's Edge

Yeah.

There's also the fact that Asmodeus is Evil, but he views his devotion to Law as paramount, so Chaotic deities are mostly outlawed, while Lawful ones are allowed on sufferance. Iomedae's Lawful, so he's more comfortable allowing her worship than that of someone Chaotic.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Suggestions on how to deal with sudden PVPness in the party.
A table of random NPCs names to substitute the ones inevitably killed by the players.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Adam Daigle wrote:
So, since I'm finishing this and getting it into the production cycle soon... aside from advice on how to play an evil character and be cohesive as a group and the usual character creation advice and setting background that we normally include in Adventure Path Player's Guides, what else do y'all think this guide needs? What's one thing that you'd expect to see in this one?

This may be too late to assist you, but I'm happy to see you ask for feedback so I thought I'd share my expectations and experience.

Probably the most interesting game I've run that I'm extremely proud of because of my group and the story we told was a Dragonlance game focused on the Wizards of High Sorcery. Every PC was a Wizard of High Sorcery. Each chose different specialties and interests. While we had a couple players leave, others joined and thus we tried hard to maintain a balance between the three orders: White (good), Red (neutral), and Black (evil). Some players were thrilled to try playing evil while others were worried about having evil PCs.

It worked out extremely well not because everyone got along but because they didn't. They disagreed on moral/ethical decision but it led to great RP. They disagreed on how to best combat a situation, handle talking to NPCs, and dealing with other groups. It was amazing. What kept them in line, however, was ultimately alignment was second to what they had all pledged their lives to: Magic. That's the first and foremost concern for the Wizards (and Gods) of High Sorcery.

So in this case I think it might all come down to not how they play together IC and OOC, but why. And that why is likely: Thrune. Thrune owns your soul. Thrune has a contract you've signed. Thrune is your family. Thrune HAS has your family. Thrune has promised you riches.

I agreed with Grond about how "evil does mean all evil types are into rape, torture, murder, lying etc." I witnessed an array of evil characters in our Dragonlance game. Heck, one LE mage helped bring the best law into the city, strict but fair. Self serving to him? Sure, but excellently detailed and ended up having that martial force work with a more NG one to create an excellent police force. Some evil types are insane, some are just rageful, racist, murderous, etc. Some won't hurt children and some don't care. There's a spectrum and not just between the three alignments of evil.

To build on that, everyone's a hero of their own story after all. It'd be nice to see some information on playing a more delusional character that doesn't believe they're evil, even if they are. I recall a good NPC example in the NPC codex: the "Fatal Axe" Thelan Stonebiter on page 211. Her information begins with "In Thelan's mind, the task she performs serves the greater good of her clan and her fortress home." Information on how to make that work with the campaign could help for those wanting to play a more conflicted evil.

Finally, I'd want to see information on how some neutral characters could work into the party. It doesn't seem good characters could unless later on in the campaign path the villains become sympathetic to the heroes of the Glorious Reclamation. I guess there's always the possibility of that if a DM wants to turn things around. Maybe that's good for a "after the campaign" section at the end of module 6.

So in summary:
1. Ways (starting traits?) of how you are connected to House Thrune.
2. Evil is more than just LE, NE, and CE. Not all evil people agree on what's right, what's wrong, and what's not.
3. "Everyone's a hero of their own story after all" How can you play an evil character that maybe doesn't believe they're evil
4. How to be neutral in this campaign, maybe even to be good or go good


Adam Daigle wrote:
So, since I'm finishing this and getting it into the production cycle soon... aside from advice on how to play an evil character and be cohesive as a group and the usual character creation advice and setting background that we normally include in Adventure Path Player's Guides, what else do y'all think this guide needs? What's one thing that you'd expect to see in this one?

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, a small section on Black Hat Necromancy (creating and controlling new undead) would be good. Such a thing would be a red flag in most other adventure paths, so I'm sure quite a few people are excited to play that kind of character in this campaign.

Also something about black market items, which the PCs in this case would be much more open to using here.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Adam Daigle wrote:
So, since I'm finishing this and getting it into the production cycle soon... aside from advice on how to play an evil character and be cohesive as a group and the normal character creation advice and setting background that we normally include in Adventure Path Player's Guides, what else do y'all think this guide needs? What's one thing that you'd expect to see in this one?

What NerdOfTheYear said (though I'm sure the guide is done by this point). Just stress to people that just because someone has an Evil alignment doesn't mean he always does evil at every opportunity. Evil people can have friends. Can care about each other. Can have goals and ambitions. You don't risk becoming less evil because you didn't slit a guy's throat as soon as his back was turned. I'd only play this AP with a mature group. If anyone has "that" person in their group (you know the one I mean) who ALWAYS plays a CN halfling rogue, because he thinks that being Chaotic Neutral lets him get away with being evil by acting cute when he's caught... don't let that guy play in this one. haha


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
I get it that folks are eager, but we're talking about a difference of a few weeks at most. Please stay patient, and try to be understanding that not everything will always be perfect.

James, let me just say, you've been doing an incredible job keeping me entertained for the past, oh, 15 years or so. Folks say things because it's the internet, and they can post stuff behind a keyboard.

You've set the bar too high with your fantastic(al) imagination and dedication. That's why folks get impatient. Keep up the great work. In my opinion, you, Erik, and your crew have ushered in a golden age of gaming.
Take a breath, take a vacation, and keep up the unparalleled work.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Ched Greyfell wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
I get it that folks are eager, but we're talking about a difference of a few weeks at most. Please stay patient, and try to be understanding that not everything will always be perfect.

James, let me just say, you've been doing an incredible job keeping me entertained for the past, oh, 15 years or so. Folks say things because it's the internet, and they can post stuff behind a keyboard.

You've set the bar too high with your fantastic(al) imagination and dedication. That's why folks get impatient. Keep up the great work. In my opinion, you, Erik, and your crew have ushered in a golden age of gaming.
Take a breath, take a vacation, and keep up the unparalleled work.

Thanks for the kind words.

That said... you do realize "take a vacation" is also a way to say "delay the products you're working on even more" yeah? ;-P


James Jacobs wrote:

That said... you do realize "take a vacation" is also a way to say "delay the products you're working on even more" yeah? ;-P

It's for the first (and possibly only) evil AP from Paizo. What better time for the writing staff to turn NE, say "screw you guys" and take a holiday, leaving us all to wait in agony? :P


James Jacobs wrote:
Ched Greyfell wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
I get it that folks are eager, but we're talking about a difference of a few weeks at most. Please stay patient, and try to be understanding that not everything will always be perfect.

James, let me just say, you've been doing an incredible job keeping me entertained for the past, oh, 15 years or so. Folks say things because it's the internet, and they can post stuff behind a keyboard.

You've set the bar too high with your fantastic(al) imagination and dedication. That's why folks get impatient. Keep up the great work. In my opinion, you, Erik, and your crew have ushered in a golden age of gaming.
Take a breath, take a vacation, and keep up the unparalleled work.

Thanks for the kind words.

That said... you do realize "take a vacation" is also a way to say "delay the products you're working on even more" yeah? ;-P

... You are kinda saying you need to learn how to delegate more. 8P


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

Thanks for the kind words.

That said... you do realize "take a vacation" is also a way to say "delay the products you're working on even more" yeah? ;-P

Not to worry, your adoring addicts fans, will be waiting for your return, gnawing on our knuckles and flesh like starving feral ghouls...

But you're not leaving right? Right?

Eyes his left hand nervously...

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Nutcase Entertainment wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Ched Greyfell wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
I get it that folks are eager, but we're talking about a difference of a few weeks at most. Please stay patient, and try to be understanding that not everything will always be perfect.

James, let me just say, you've been doing an incredible job keeping me entertained for the past, oh, 15 years or so. Folks say things because it's the internet, and they can post stuff behind a keyboard.

You've set the bar too high with your fantastic(al) imagination and dedication. That's why folks get impatient. Keep up the great work. In my opinion, you, Erik, and your crew have ushered in a golden age of gaming.
Take a breath, take a vacation, and keep up the unparalleled work.

Thanks for the kind words.

That said... you do realize "take a vacation" is also a way to say "delay the products you're working on even more" yeah? ;-P

... You are kinda saying you need to learn how to delegate more. 8P

Hence me not doing Adventure Paths and delegating them to Adam and Crystal, yeah?


James Jacobs wrote:
Nutcase Entertainment wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Ched Greyfell wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
I get it that folks are eager, but we're talking about a difference of a few weeks at most. Please stay patient, and try to be understanding that not everything will always be perfect.

James, let me just say, you've been doing an incredible job keeping me entertained for the past, oh, 15 years or so. Folks say things because it's the internet, and they can post stuff behind a keyboard.

You've set the bar too high with your fantastic(al) imagination and dedication. That's why folks get impatient. Keep up the great work. In my opinion, you, Erik, and your crew have ushered in a golden age of gaming.
Take a breath, take a vacation, and keep up the unparalleled work.

Thanks for the kind words.

That said... you do realize "take a vacation" is also a way to say "delay the products you're working on even more" yeah? ;-P

... You are kinda saying you need to learn how to delegate more. 8P
Hence me not doing Adventure Paths and delegating them to Adam and Crystal, yeah?

<_<

>_>

You would probably still work while on vacation anyway, just with less source of stress around. 8D

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:

Yeah.

There's also the fact that Asmodeus is Evil, but he views his devotion to Law as paramount, so Chaotic deities are mostly outlawed, while Lawful ones are allowed on sufferance. Iomedae's Lawful, so he's more comfortable allowing her worship than that of someone Chaotic.

Though honestly, given the synopses of the AP's adventures we see in Book 1, I think that will change VERY quickly once Hell's Vengeance gets rolling. At the very least there'll probably be a new ban specifically on Iomedaeans in Cheliax...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Though honestly, given the synopses of the AP's adventures we see in Book 1, I think that will change VERY quickly once Hell's Vengeance gets rolling. At the very least there'll probably be a new ban specifically on Iomedaeans in Cheliax...

Oh, Abrogail could outlaw nearly anything... especially since most indications are that she leans more on the Evil component of her alignment than even Hell is really comfortable with (A Pit Fiend is your voice of reason?!)

"Best Friend Abrogail reserves the right to outlaw stuff for any reason, including whimsy or boredom."


6 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm a f%*%ing rock star, not even grandma can top the s@@& I'm capable of. I'm certainly not going to let a bunch of upstart peasants f#!! with my rise to power.

Hell itself can't keep me down.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Abby Thrune, Despot wrote:

I'm a f@$*ing rock star, not even grandma can top the s$!! I'm capable of. I'm certainly not going to let a bunch of upstart peasants f@!$ with my rise to power.

Hell itself can't keep me down.

Rock? I would have guessed Heavy Metal. (or any other 'X' Metal)


6 people marked this as a favorite.

Whatever, get to work.

Those fields won't salt themselves.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Abby Thrune, Despot wrote:

Whatever, get to work.

Those fields won't salt themselves.

Me?

My work is banging heads on the pavement. Why use rocks and pebbles when you can use bones.


So, any change to the timetable for this? Did the spam problem have any effect? Did the Weather?


Nutcase Entertainment wrote:
So, any change to the timetable for this? Did the spam problem have any effect? Did the Weather?
Rob McCreary wrote:
The plan is to have the Player's Guide available by the street date for the first volume of Hell's Vengeance, which is February 24.

It's not late yet.


Joana wrote:
Nutcase Entertainment wrote:
So, any change to the timetable for this? Did the spam problem have any effect? Did the Weather?
Rob McCreary wrote:
The plan is to have the Player's Guide available by the street date for the first volume of Hell's Vengeance, which is February 24.
It's not late yet.

I know, but asking if anything is interfering with production sounds like a good question.

Paizo Employee Developer

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Everything's still on track for February 24th.

Also, thanks to everyone that gave their feedback on the kinds of things you want to see in the Player's Guide.


Starfinder Superscriber

Man still no players guide? So sad...


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Patience is basic villainy 101, they've got their top people working on it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
captain yesterday wrote:
Patience is basic villainy 101, they've got their top people working on it.

Yeah I know, but having the PDF last week and yesterday getting the print in the mail makes it suck to wait.


I haven't even gotten my print version yet (the email said it would leave the warehouse by tomorrow, tops) still, I'd rather it was done right, then done early. :-)

Edit: I'm also angling to play in it, so I haven't even hardly opened up the PDF, except to read the forward and check out the inside front cover awesome map of Cheliax, which is awesome.

Liberty's Edge

Cole Deschain wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Though honestly, given the synopses of the AP's adventures we see in Book 1, I think that will change VERY quickly once Hell's Vengeance gets rolling. At the very least there'll probably be a new ban specifically on Iomedaeans in Cheliax...

Oh, Abrogail could outlaw nearly anything... especially since most indications are that she leans more on the Evil component of her alignment than even Hell is really comfortable with (A Pit Fiend is your voice of reason?!)

"Best Friend Abrogail reserves the right to outlaw stuff for any reason, including whimsy or boredom."

Voice of reason as in Lawful I think. Not as less Evil ;-)


Starfinder Superscriber

Give me patience and give it to me NOW!


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I want it too, but I can certainly wait until it's done right.

I never run an AP until all six volumes are out anyway...


I disagree with getting all 6 beforehand. if TPK happens and no one wants to continue, you have dead books on your shelf.

Paizo Employee Developer

9 people marked this as a favorite.

Unless...

• You're a collector.
• You enjoy the other material in the books.
• You plan to run it again for another group.
• You enjoy reading the adventures even if you don't run them.

(I'm not trying to be contrary, but I know that Haladir has been a subscriber for a while and there's no way he's been able to run every AP that's come out since he's been subscribing. I was a full-on subscriber before I became an employee and the reasons I listed above were reasons I never considered adventures I didn't get to run "dead books".)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

February 24th? Pssh, waiting until then is a cakewalk. If there's one thing waiting for new seasons of Venture Bros. has taught me, it's patience.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
MannyGoblin wrote:
I disagree with getting all 6 beforehand. if TPK happens and no one wants to continue, you have dead books on your shelf.

Well, having all 6 can help with PCs' concepts, backstories, goals and more...


captain yesterday wrote:
they've got their top people working on it.

*leans forward* Who?


That's for the suits in Washington (state) to figure out, I'm not their supervisor. :-)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Top. People.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Adam Daigle wrote:

Unless...

• You're a collector.
• You enjoy the other material in the books.
• You plan to run it again for another group.
• You enjoy reading the adventures even if you don't run them.

(I'm not trying to be contrary, but I know that Haladir has been a subscriber for a while and there's no way he's been able to run every AP that's come out since he's been subscribing. I was a full-on subscriber before I became an employee and the reasons I listed above were reasons I never considered adventures I didn't get to run "dead books".)

Yeah... I started subscribing with "Skull and Shackles" and have all AP volumes since. And I've also picked up Runelords (both versions), Crimson Throne, Second Darkness, Legacy of Fire, Carrion Crown, and Jade Regent.

The only AP I've run in this time has been "Rise of the Runelords."

I've already collected more adventures than I'll ever be able to run, but I still collecting! I have pressed many bits and pieces of APs into service for my homebrew games. I pretty much never need to draw a map from scratch any more!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I've been getting APs since the beginning of Kingmaker. However, to show how hardcore I am, I've only been subscribing since August. :-)

Sovereign Court

waltero wrote:
I'm all for taking time and getting a good Player's Guide. I especially enjoyed the one for Carrion Crown. Lots of good stuff in there and all of it on the money.

Well Hello there Sexy!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
SilentInfinity wrote:
Adam Daigle wrote:
So, since I'm finishing this and getting it into the production cycle soon... aside from advice on how to play an evil character and be cohesive as a group and the usual character creation advice and setting background that we normally include in Adventure Path Player's Guides, what else do y'all think this guide needs? What's one thing that you'd expect to see in this one?

This may be too late to assist you, but I'm happy to see you ask for feedback so I thought I'd share my expectations and experience.

Probably the most interesting game I've run that I'm extremely proud of because of my group and the story we told was a Dragonlance game focused on the Wizards of High Sorcery. Every PC was a Wizard of High Sorcery. Each chose different specialties and interests. While we had a couple players leave, others joined and thus we tried hard to maintain a balance between the three orders: White (good), Red (neutral), and Black (evil). Some players were thrilled to try playing evil while others were worried about having evil PCs.

It worked out extremely well not because everyone got along but because they didn't. They disagreed on moral/ethical decision but it led to great RP. They disagreed on how to best combat a situation, handle talking to NPCs, and dealing with other groups. It was amazing. What kept them in line, however, was ultimately alignment was second to what they had all pledged their lives to: Magic. That's the first and foremost concern for the Wizards (and Gods) of High Sorcery.

So in this case I think it might all come down to not how they play together IC and OOC, but why. And that why is likely: Thrune. Thrune owns your soul. Thrune has a contract you've signed. Thrune is your family. Thrune HAS has your family. Thrune has promised you riches.

I agreed with Grond about how "evil does mean all evil types are into rape, torture, murder, lying etc." I witnessed an array of evil characters in our Dragonlance game. Heck, one LE mage helped...

The Wizards of High Sorcery are my favorite organization in D and D worlds.


Has there been any update?

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