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I am looking at Overwatch Style for my archer cleric, and I have some questions.
First here are the feats, and the text of readied actions.
Prerequisite(s): Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon.
Benefit(s): While using this style, as a full-round action you can ready two ranged attacks with the chosen weapon, each with its own triggering event.
You take a –2 penalty on attack rolls made with these readied actions.
Special: A character with this feat and the weapon training (bows, crossbows, or firearms) class feature can use Overwatch Style with any bow, crossbow, or firearm, respectively, in addition to the chosen weapon.
You quickly prepare to react to your enemies' actions.
Prerequisite(s): Overwatch Style, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon.
Benefit(s): While using Overwatch Style, you can ready two ranged attacks as a standard action, rather than a full-round action.
You are ready to respond to many more of your foes' actions.
Prerequisite(s): Overwatch Style, Overwatch Tactician, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit(s): While using the Overwatch Style, as a full-round action you can ready up to four ranged attacks, each with its own triggering event. You take a –2 penalty on attack rolls made with these readied actions.
Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
Distracting Spellcasters: You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell." If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her concentration check result).
Readying to Counterspell: You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell"). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (and are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster's spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.
A spellcaster can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, but it doesn't always work.
Readying a Weapon against a Charge: You can ready weapons with the brace feature, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.
The real payoff here is obviously Overwatch Vortex, and the earliest a cleric can take it is 15th so for my feats I am thinking
Human: Point Blank Shot
1: Precise Shot
3: Rapid Shot
5: Deadly Aim
7: Weapon Focus
9: Clustered Shots
11: Many Shot
13: Overwatch Style
15: Overwatch Tactician
17: Overwatch Vortex
19: Improved Precise Shot
I could drop Deadly Aim, Many Shot or Clustered shots to get Vortex 2 levels earlier, but I believe this will hurt my DPR quite a bit from as early as level 5. I am delaying Improved Precise Shot due to
Basic setup is as follows.
Let us say I am a level 17 Archer cleric.
At this level I will have the following to affect my attacks minimum.
+5 weapon
+10 Dex (16 base, +4 levels, + 6 Belt + 4 Inherent)
Bracers of Falcon's Aim
My normal attack rotation is
Basically +23(2 arrows)/+23/+18/+13.
If I use Overwatch Vortex it is
Basically +23/+23/+23/+23.
So my third and fourth attacks get better, but I lose one arrow from my first attack.
My damage should be something like
Basically 1d8 + 18.
This means if I use the standard bestiary AC for level 17 which is 32, my DPR will be as follows for each set.
Full attack:
Basically ~60 DPR.
Overwatch Vortex:
Basically ~65 DPR. So each of the Overwatch feats are about 1.6 DPR since you need all three for any real benefit.
Now how I am planning on using the feats is as follows.
My initiative starts --> Use a Swift/Free action and 5-foot step as required. --> Declare I am using a Full round action to use Overwatch Vortex, Triggers are:
1: When I say the word "Go" shoot target A. (Target A will be a defined person/thing in combat)
2: After I complete my first attempt at shooting target A, shoot target A again.
3: After I complete my second attempt at shooting target A, shoot target A again.
4: After I complete my third attempt at shooting target A, shoot target A again.
-->End my Turn-->As soon as my turn ends on the same initiative count say the word "Go".-->Take all of my readied actions-->Round Continues as normal.
Does all of this seem like it will work?
After looking at the numbers it seems like this is just not that great of an option as you gain a very nominal amount of DPR at the cost of three feats and losing access to clustered shots, which seems like it will be a bigger DPR gain. I know with a +5 weapon I am only not punching DR/-, DR/Epic, or DR/Slashing, but it seems to me that losing access to clustered shots hurts more than this feat chain helps.
The only place this seems valuable is when you need to try and interrupt someone's casting.
What do you think?
Perhaps this feat line would be better?
Human: Point Blank Shot
1: Precise Shot
3: Rapid Shot
5: Deadly Aim
7: Weapon Focus
9: Clustered Shots
11: Many Shot
13: Divine Interference
15: Improved Precise Shot
17: Empty Quiver Style
19: Stabbing Shot
Any input is appreciated.
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I'm afraid I don't have the time or energy today to evaluate your different attack routines, but I just wanted to say wow, that is a very thorough analysis.
I think the quick cocktail napkin calculations I know say something like this: Vortex is roughly the same Manyshot, except you lose Cluster and gain caster interrupting abilities. Additionally, when you do use the actual readied actions as interrupts rather than weird, just-after-your-turn full attacks, you bleed a bit of init based on the difference between your init count and the caster's. That many feats for such little gain becomes much more about shifting you into a suppressive, caster-controlling role, and much less about DPR.
As a practical matter, I think most GMs would disfavor your Overwatch use because it breaks the spirit of readied actions (in their eyes).
Props for trying to push the envelope on less popular styles.
Personally, I wouldn't allow readied actions to trigger on your own actions, or anything else that's basically trying to "scam" the readied action rules to guarantee attacks go off exactly how you want them. I think part of the cost of the style is that there is some uncertainty in how the readied actions will pan out.
That being said, you might consider the Crusader archetype. Not only will it get you Weapon Focus for free and speed up your plan, it will give you some other bonus feats, such as Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and/or Improved Critical. The tricky part is the small list for level 5, but Shield Focus with a buckler isn't a bad idea for surprise rounds.
On the other hand, if you're building for Overwatch Style, why not a Crossbowman fighter? The bonus feats get it online WAY faster, the damage bonus to readied actions would be a huge DPR boost, and he gets some other goodies as well.
Thank you both for your responses.
About Crusader:
Several things kill it for me.
1.) You cannot take weapon focus until level 5 as it is not a "normal class- or level-based prerequisite" as per the author. Link.
This means the only benefit I get before level 5 is either Heavy armor proficiency, which as a high dex character I do not want and cannot likely afford at 1-3, martial weapon proficiency to pick up a better melee weapon *shrug*, or shield focus which could buy me two AC out of a buckler but costs me -1 to hit unless as you said I am only using it in surprise rounds.
2.) I could live with one domain, but 1 less spell per spell level is rather crippling. This means from levels 1-4 I have 1-2 fewer spells per day as well as losing the domain abilities, such as the ability to wash away fatigue and all I have gained is the before mentioned feats which I don't want.
It is slightly better at level 5 when I can get weapon focus, but trading a 3rd level spell for a +1 to hit which does not seem like a good deal to me.
From levels 6-9 I lose a 4th and 5th level slot still paying for weapon focus.
At 10th-14th I lose a 6th and 7th for +2 damage.
At 15th-19th I lose an 8th and 9th for +1 to hit.
At 20th I do get another +2 to damage for effectively free. As I am playing an AP I just doubt I will see 20.
3.) Legions Blessing is terrible. There is no point especially with fewer spells per day at which I would trade a 1rst and a 4th for any of the small selection of (Harmless), (Touch) spells to a group of max 10 people. Any higher level spells are a worse trade. If I am missing something about this ability please point it out to me but it seems unappealing with a quick glance through the cleric spell list.
My feats with Crusader would be
Human 1: Point Blank Shot
Crusader 1: Martial Weapon Proficiency (Greatsword)
1: Precise Shot
3: Rapid Shot
5: Deadly Aim
Crusader 5: Weapon Focus
7: Overwatch Style
9: Clustered Shots
Crusader 10: Weapon Specialization
11: Many Shot
13: Overwatch Tactician
15: Overwatch Vortex
Crusader 15: Greater Weapon Focus
17: Point Blank Master
19: Improved Precise Shot
Crusader 20th: Greater Weapon Specialization
The big pay-off here is Point Blank Master, but I get it very late in life.
If I abandon the Overwatch line it is slightly better, but still seems weak.
Human 1: Point Blank Shot
Crusader 1: Martial Weapon Proficiency (Greatsword)
1: Precise Shot
3: Rapid Shot
5: Deadly Aim
Crusader 5: Weapon Focus
7: ??? (Maybe Scribe Scroll?)
9: Clustered Shots
Crusader 10: Weapon Specialization
11: Many Shot
13: Point Blank Master
15: Improved Precise shot
Crusader 15: Greater Weapon Focus
17: Divine Interference
19: ???
Crusader 20th: Greater Weapon Specialization
Not trying to be a negative nancy, but it seems to me that Crusader is a straight downgrade for a cleric archer except for the ability to get point blank master, and that does not seem like it is worth it to me.
I do appreciate the feedback, but I think I am going to abandon the Overwatch idea. Without the -2 to hit it could be worth it, as is it seems weak.
Edit: I am a cleric due to two things;
1.) I enjoy buffing and support
2.) We have no other divine casters
This means we really cannot afford to have me switch classes except maybe to shaman or oracle. Also we are playing carrion crown, so...
Thanks again :-)
I actually endorse the idea of the Crossbowman fighter, overwatch style (to vortex) to at least level 7 so it denies enemies their dex bonus. You could immediately start taking levels in Rogue and stacking Sneak Attack classes to deal a metric ton of damage to enemies with readied actions since at level 7 enemies are denied their Dex mod therefore enabling sneak attack.
The average damage of a sneak attack is 3.5, so short of absurd dex (around 30) it is going to be better to just have more SA dice. If you stack the sniper and deadly sneak attack rogue talents, then this just gets more deadly.
By level 20 you'd be looking at (Fighter7/rogue 13)
1d10+7d6 (average 30 [5.5+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5]) per shot before you add in anything like enchantments, though you could easily add 4d6 of each element to the damage with the elemental damage bonuses, feat bonuses to damage, traits or class bonuses.
OP wants to remain a cleric (or shaman or oracle). 7+ levels in Fighter and Rogue (I assume you meant Vivisectionist) isn't really viable).
...shield focus which could buy me two AC out of a buckler but costs me -1 to hit unless as you said I am only using it in surprise rounds.
For what it's worth, the -1 to hit doesn't apply to bows, so there's no penalty. But I agree that if you don't want to go all-in for archery, that spell loss is pretty bad.
A bow takes two hands to use, thus you take the -1 penalty.
A bow takes two hands to use, thus you take the -1 penalty.
Bows and crossbows have a special exemption.
This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so.
I picked up a +1 buckler on my archer for an easy +2 AC in surprise rounds, and when I have to do something other than shoot.
well look at that.