Summon monster time question


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Dose the effects of a summoned monster last after the summoned monster spell ends?

If a Poisonous Frog lands an attack with it's poison bite on its last round of being summoned, dose the poison still last the full 6 rounds?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Yes.


Ok...
If the Poison persists after the end of the spell. Can you milk it and keep the poison for later?


Dr Styx wrote:

Ok...

If the Poison persists after the end of the spell. Can you milk it and keep the poison for later?

There are no rules for milking at all in PF so the answer is no until your GM introduces milking rules, and at that point he will have to decide.


If this works for attack based effects ( poison in the last example ) does it also work for magical effects with a duration? Be they spells or abilities?


Spells a summoned creature casts end when the summoned creature is gone. It's in the section on summoning spells.


So is the poison assumed to run its full duration because it is not written otherwise, or is there a specific rule somewhere stating so?


Delenot wrote:
So is the poison assumed to run its full duration because it is not written otherwise

I believe that's it.

Quote:

Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have.

Interestingly, a spell-like ability isn't a spell, so those may very well stick around.


I'm inclined the other way.

Summon a caster creature and have it cast a spell effect on an enemy, that effect ends when the creature goes away. That's in the rules. I see no problem assuming this applies for effects caused by SLAs and poisons too - they're all effects that the summoned creature put on the enemy and they should all go away equally when the creature goes away.

The entire creature, every part of it, goes away when the spell ends. The poison was just a part of the creature, so it goes away too.

That seems reasonable to me, and eliminates the question of farming summoned creatures for poison. No, it's not explicitly in the rules, but I think it's RAI enough for my liking.


Just pointing out that if you rule poisons to linger then you would also need to rule that SLAs linger, because neither is addressed in the rules.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
DM_Blake wrote:
No, it's not explicitly in the rules, but I think it's RAI enough for my liking.

I agree with DM_Blake on this. It's not RAW, but I believe it be RAI.

For example, assume you use Summon Monster IX to summon an Astral Deva Angel. After the fight is over, with rounds still left, you request that it use its At Will Spell Like Ability to generate a Continual Flame. It seems to me that this should end when the creature disappears, just like if you had summoned an Ghaele Azata who had the spell Continual Flame prepared, and you had asked it cast the spell for you. A creature possessing some spell as a Spell Like Ability should be a way to get around the limitation of spells ending when the Summons ends.

It does raise an interesting case though for creatures who use abilities or spells with duration "Permanent." I don't think it had come up so far in a game with which I am involved, but I had assumed that effects that resulted in duration Permanent results, such as Bestow Curse or Blindness had to be removed normally. Reading the rules closely now, I think instead they should end when the Summons ends, even if they normally could not be dismissed.


I certainly agree with ANY spell, regardless of duration, ending along with the summoned creature. There is nothing left for interpretation regarding that. But an SLA, or anything other than a spell, still raises question as there have been many occurrences of something not being written therefore meaning it is permitted.


Poisons are not spells, and the spells are likely limited for balance reasons, which often ignore consistency or common sense.

Grand Lodge

But Spell-like Abilities are subject to the same effects that spells are.

Quote:
In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Scarab Sages

And what about the effects of a healing spell???


True, SLAs are treated like regular spells. Not knowing the summon monster list off hand, is there any Su or Ex ( if I used the right abbreviations ) that have a duration and possibly subject to this?


Was also thinking about something intagled in a web that a summoned spider created?


Eretas wrote:
And what about the effects of a healing spell???

The magic comes and goes in an instant. There isn't anything to end when the monster leaves - the spell already ended the moment it was cast.


Eretas wrote:
And what about the effects of a healing spell???

Mostly doesn't matter. Most healing spells are "duration: instantaneous" which means that they happen immediately and the magic is then gone, leaving the target in its normal (but now healed) state. So there is no magic to undo, and there is no spell to end when the summoned creature departs.

However, if a summon cast Infernal Healing on your PC and then it disappeared next round, that "1 HP healed per round for lots of rounds" effect should end early. That's a spell with a duration that goes on for many rounds, and can be cut off.


thekwp wrote:
For example, assume you use Summon Monster IX to summon an Astral Deva Angel. After the fight is over, with rounds still left, you request that it use its At Will Spell Like Ability to generate a Continual Flame. It seems to me that this should end when the creature disappears, just like if you had summoned an Ghaele Azata who had the spell Continual Flame prepared, and you had asked it cast the spell for you. A creature possessing some spell as a Spell Like Ability should be a way to get around the limitation of spells ending when the Summons ends.

A Summoned Astral Deva can't cast Continual Flame because it has an expensive Material Component.

PDF wrote:
Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).


Some Other Guy wrote:

But Spell-like Abilities are subject to the same effects that spells are.

Quote:
In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Except the FAQs have repeatedly disagreed with that:

Quote:

Metamagic: Can I use a metamagic feat to alter a spell-like ability?

No. Metamagic feats specifically only affect spells, not spell-like abilities.
Quote:
A spell-like ability is not a spell

This is the same reason people argue that the gnome's pyromaniac doesn't boost his fire spell like abilities.


Simple logic for the poison:
The poison is not magical, but a physical substance.
If it is a physical substance and was summoned together with the monster, it is either a part of the monsters body or part of its gear.

Both of those vanish once the spell ends.

Rather simple in my eyes.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Dr Styx wrote:

A Summoned Astral Deva can't cast Continual Flame because it has an expensive Material Component.

PDF wrote:
Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).

Good point. It does not change my greater point, which is that I don't think you should be able to use a Spell Like Ability to get around the limitation of a Summon Monster spell, but it does point out that the obvious permanent duration spell-like abilities will not work anyway.


I was under the assumption that spells with expensive components could not be cast because the summoned creature didn't have the needed component. If the player supplied the component, it off their own resources, the spell could be cast.


Delenot wrote:
I was under the assumption that spells with expensive components could not be cast because the summoned creature didn't have the needed component. If the player supplied the component, it off their own resources, the spell could be cast.

Nope. The spell says summoned creatures simply can not use those abilities. It has nothing to do with components. Notice that it also applies to spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components. Spell-like abilities don't use material components to begin with, and the summoned monster still can't use them.


Kalridian wrote:

Simple logic for the poison:

The poison is not magical, but a physical substance.
If it is a physical substance and was summoned together with the monster, it is either a part of the monsters body or part of its gear.

Both of those vanish once the spell ends.

Rather simple in my eyes.

I agree with this. The whole creature goes away, including blood it spilled on the ground, limbs that were hacked off, and poison it left in enemies bodies.

Grand Lodge

Melkiador wrote:
Some Other Guy wrote:

But Spell-like Abilities are subject to the same effects that spells are.

Quote:
In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Except the FAQs have repeatedly disagreed with that:

Quote:

Metamagic: Can I use a metamagic feat to alter a spell-like ability?

No. Metamagic feats specifically only affect spells, not spell-like abilities.
Quote:
A spell-like ability is not a spell
This is the same reason people argue that the gnome's pyromaniac doesn't boost his fire spell like abilities.

Without context, saying "A spell-like ability is not a spell" would negate the entire line saying "a spell-like ability functions just like a spell". The FAQs are about specific functions that spells can be used with. Without that context, anything that says "spells" would never apply to a spell-like ability such as dispel magic. Half of the invisibility description wouldn't function because it specifically references "casting this spell".


From the spell Dispel Magic:

Quote:
Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.

So, Dispel Magic can dispel SLAs, because it has a specific line saying it can.


DM_Blake wrote:
Kalridian wrote:

Simple logic for the poison:

The poison is not magical, but a physical substance.
If it is a physical substance and was summoned together with the monster, it is either a part of the monsters body or part of its gear.

Both of those vanish once the spell ends.

Rather simple in my eyes.

I agree with this. The whole creature goes away, including blood it spilled on the ground, limbs that were hacked off, and poison it left in enemies bodies.

Bizarre question based upon this concept. What happens if the summoned creature eats something? Be it an item, or even a target's flesh and bone?


Delenot wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
Kalridian wrote:

Simple logic for the poison:

The poison is not magical, but a physical substance.
If it is a physical substance and was summoned together with the monster, it is either a part of the monsters body or part of its gear.

Both of those vanish once the spell ends.

Rather simple in my eyes.

I agree with this. The whole creature goes away, including blood it spilled on the ground, limbs that were hacked off, and poison it left in enemies bodies.
Bizarre question based upon this concept. What happens if the summoned creature eats something? Be it an item, or even a target's flesh and bone?

Assuming it's inside the creature, it should probably disappear with the creature.

Held items given to the creature someone should definitely persist.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Delenot wrote:
Bizarre question based upon this concept. What happens if the summoned creature eats something? Be it an item, or even a target's flesh and bone?

For the sake of my mental hygiene, OBVIOUSLY summoned monsters have a very fast digestive system, and the consumed portions are integrated into their physiology, thus disappearing when the spells end. This works to keep the dungeons tidy, explaining yet again why there are not bathrooms on every level of the dungeon as well.

Of course, I am kidding about all that, and I really don't know. If they do disappear, is having a Summoned Monster (or sets of them) eat a body a way to prevent access to a body for such things as Speak with Dead or Raise Dead? You couldn't even use Locate Object to find the body since it would be off plane...

If not, I can also see the Pathfinder-style CSI at the murder site. "Hmm. Look at the splattering of chewed flesh and blood splattered on the floor all the way over here... Based on the quantity of material and dispersion on the floor, I estimate dropped from the stomach of a summoned Dire Lion. That's likely our murder weapon, then."

Either way, presents some fuel there for something a bit different for someone's adventuring group.


Delenot wrote:
Bizarre question based upon this concept. What happens if the summoned creature eats something? Be it an item, or even a target's flesh and bone?

Actually that's quite an important question. There are a number of summonable creatures with Swallow Whole ability. My interpretation would be that if a summoned T-rex swallows a PC, when the duration of the spell wears off, whatever's left of the PC is left behind as it disappears.


The eaten item/person remains here.

See this thread for a short discussion and a fairy definitive answer.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Thanks for the link, DM_Blake. That is pretty definitive.

And so, now I go to plot out my mystery-style investigation adventure based on finding the various victims' remains after they have been killed by a selection of summoned monsters.

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