A Int based divine caster?


Advice


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Hey all, I really want to do a spellcaster-ish divine caster... was wondering if there is such a thing as a int based caster instead of wis based?


No.


Although the Psychic, an INT-based psychic (duh) class can receive its powers from Faith, in which case it would be half-way there.


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You could have a Psychic with a faith discipline.


Psychic- faith discipline
Witch - devotion patron
Arcanist - blooded archetype with celestial bloodline, or white mage archetype
Occultist - reliquarian archetype with sacred implement(s)

Pretty sure I'm missing an archetype somewhere, but those are the biggest ones.


ekibus wrote:
Hey all, I really want to do a spellcaster-ish divine caster... was wondering if there is such a thing as a int based caster instead of wis based?

The Reliquarian archetype from Occult Origins makes the class a a divine spell caster (with access to a domain) but retains Int based casting of the base class.


Adept and Eldritch goslings can pick any stat for casting.


don't forget razmir prist

Scarab Sages

The Embalmer from Wayfinder 12 is an Investigator archetype, with divine necromantic and curative abilities replacing the typical ones.

Not a full caster by any means, but a way for an Osirian temple to have staff members favouring all three mental stats.

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Archivist from 3.5's Heroes of Horror.

It has Medium BAB, light armor (maybe more), 1d8 HD, 4+ skill points, Int-based 9 level divine casting, uses a prayerbook instead of a spellbook, and has some nice Int/Knowledge check-based buffs.

You might have to convert it a bit, but it was a solid class. Kind of a blend of bard and cleric support class.


john mclaughlin 11 wrote:
don't forget razmir prist

Specifically, you want Razmiran Priest Sorcerer with the Sage Bloodline (Wildblooded archetype, but the archetypes seem to be compatible) -- otherwise you get Charisma-based, except Empyreal gives you Wisdom-based, but clashes with Razmiran Priest anyway (they both replace the 9th level Bloodline Power).

Here's another thought: Shaman is Wisdom-based and Spirit Guide Oracle is Charisma-based, but the Lore Spirit (originally for Shaman, but Spirit Guide Oracle can also get it) with the Arcane Enlightenment Hex also needs Intelligence to make good use of this Hex; unfortunately you also need Charisma, so this will make you really MAD (whichever way you take this -- Spirit Guide Oracle swaps Charisma and Wisdom but doesn't get rid of the need for either one).


Sorry to clarify a bit. I'm doing PFS and I really like the cleric, but not having any skills or really being able to do much with the ones i have really kinda kills it for me. So thats why i was wondering about a int based divine caster...I'm thinking a full caster who was decent at some skills would be nice. I'm currently playing a inquisitor and having fun but was massacred today and I keep hearing that there is a need for spellcasters.


I keep looking at the Shaman but as you mentioned you really need to space your stats around..not sure if it is manageable with 20 points (and maybe contribute to combat in some way)

I would have to look at the psychic a bit more but doesn't the faith one base off of wis?


It bases your phrenic pool off WIS, but your casting is still INT-based.


SmiloDan wrote:

Archivist from 3.5's Heroes of Horror.

It has Medium BAB, light armor (maybe more), 1d8 HD, 4+ skill points, Int-based 9 level divine casting, uses a prayerbook instead of a spellbook, and has some nice Int/Knowledge check-based buffs.

You might have to convert it a bit, but it was a solid class. Kind of a blend of bard and cleric support class.

And potentially one of the most powerful divine spellcasters in the game back in the day - the archivist defaulted to the cleric list, but had the potential to learn divine spells from ANY (divine casting) class - paladin, druid, shukenja from OA, and so on.

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Grey Lensman wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:

Archivist from 3.5's Heroes of Horror.

It has Medium BAB, light armor (maybe more), 1d8 HD, 4+ skill points, Int-based 9 level divine casting, uses a prayerbook instead of a spellbook, and has some nice Int/Knowledge check-based buffs.

You might have to convert it a bit, but it was a solid class. Kind of a blend of bard and cleric support class.

And potentially one of the most powerful divine spellcasters in the game back in the day - the archivist defaulted to the cleric list, but had the potential to learn divine spells from ANY (divine casting) class - paladin, druid, shukenja from OA, and so on.

Yep - cherry picking divine lists, supposedly including deity-specific spells, made the archivist VERY powerful.

And then Dark Knowledge giving bonuses on top of that.
Yes, VERY strong class.

==Aelryinth


Wish was usable in PFS, sounds like it is right what i was looking for


I was going to suggest Changeling or generic Aasimar for the ability score distribution, but as far as I know these aren't allowed in PFS (unless you have a special boon that lets you have an Aasimar), so the next best thing would be to see if PFS lets you use the Human alternate racial trait (Dual Talent) that lets you trade in your bonus feat and the Skilled trait for another +2 to any ability score that you didn't put the first +2 on (without applying a penalty to any of your other scores). (I don't have the PFS materials to be sure, but I think the symbol next to it on Archives of Nethys means that it is PFS legal.) If you really dump Strength hard (I hate doing this, but here it's unavoidable) and put +2 in each of Intelligence and Wisdom, and then pump those and Charisma, you can get:

Str 7; Dex 10, Con 10, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 16

And put your first and second ability score increases into Int and Wis. Rearrange the mental scores (and level-based ability score increases) as needed for whichever MAD spellcaster you chose to be. You aren't going to be able to be effective in physical combat unless you are seriously buffed, so rely on your other abilities. If you were in a 1 - 20 campaign, you would have to concentrate ability score increases onto your primary spellcasting modifier, but PFS is 1 - 12 unless you have a special boon, so this is not a concern -- just either avoid depending too heavily on enemies failing their saving throws, or add some way to impair their ability to make their saving throws.


Was just tinkering with a witch... maybe not the best but it checks off some things...I basically use the class hexes for channel and the feats for hexes...basically a debuffer who can sacrifice spells for heals when needed (really the spell list was iffy)

Human witch (hex channeler) 7 )
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +0

Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +5

Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 19, Wis 10, Cha 12
Feats Accursed Hex, Extra Hex, Extra Hex, Extra Hex, Extra Hex
Traits pragmatic activator, reactionary
Skills Fly +10, Heal +4, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (arcana) +14, Knowledge (history) +14, Knowledge (nature) +14, Knowledge (planes) +14, Spellcraft +14, Swim +3, Use Magic Device +14

Accursed Hex
Cackle
Evil Eye -2 (7 rounds, DC 17) (Su)
Misfortune (1 round, DC 17)
Witch Channel Positive Energy 4d6 (4/day, DC 14)


I think you can also combine the Hex Channeler can be combined with the Hedge Witch if you truly want serious healing power - the ability to spontaneously cast healing spells is a big benefit, although losing the 4th and 8th level hexes in addition to the 2nd might be a steep price.


This works too. If you go with the Healing Patron, it fills in holes in your spell list to make it pretty good for bad status removal -- good enough that a Cleric wouldn't be ashamed of it. Too bad the polarity of Hex Channeler is still tied to alignment, but with Variant Channeling you can still get a bad status removal or buff rider on Positive Energy Channeling (if you could get Negative Energy Channeling while being Good, you would have access to a variety of debuffs, although you would have to invest in Selective Channeling). Some of the Variant Channeling rider effects and in general the Channeling DC depend upon your effective Cleric level (in this case your Witch level) but not on how many dice of Channel Energy you do, which is helpful if you have to skip conversion of one of the even-numbered Hexes (like for instance if some other archetype like Hedge Witch replaced it or replaced your 1st level Hex, so that you need your 4th or in worst case 6th level Hex to be not replaced so that you can qualify for Extra Hex).


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Aelryinth wrote:


Yep - cherry picking divine lists, supposedly including deity-specific spells, made the archivist VERY powerful.

And then Dark Knowledge giving bonuses on top of that.
Yes, VERY strong class.

==Aelryinth

Yes the Archivist was powerful, but not remotely OP as some made out.

What is forgotten is that the Archivist only received 2 cleric spells per level - any other divine spells had to be sought out and added correctly to his spellbook. He was in effect completely in the GM's pocket.... more so than any other class.

What is really interesting from a PF perspective is how easy it would be to transfer the class over.

The amount of times you hear.."A new D6 divine class would be too hard to design, you would have to re-do the cleric list and domains.... blahblahblah..."

Absolute nonsense... the Archivist is for a base class an incredibly simple concept and opens up a whole new load of possibilities.

I am sure Paizo could do a really flavoursome job but wont for some bizarre (and as yet unexplained) reason...!


Biggest worry I would have is double checking the witch spell list and would I be giving up too much mainly giving up feats to manage to be a ok heal-type. I did see the herald caller and possibly there is a oracle I need to look into (think it was called psychic searcher) tie that in with a life oracle...might be something. I've always like the reach cleric idea...the big pain was the skills and how much you have to stretch the stats. Shaman is another I should double check

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SS,

You are mistaken. Wizards only get 2 spells per level. Are you saying wizards are completely in the GM's pocket?

You can buy scrolls of cleric spells the same way your can buy scrolls of wiz/sorc/bard spells. Or, you could just copy down the prayers.

Sure, if you rule 0 the setting, they could have problems.

But the default is, the archivist can cherry pick any prayers off the cleric list for the same cost as a wizard to copy a spell, and could acquire custom/domain clerical spells by buying a scroll of them and converting them.

That's why it was considered strong. Domain spells included the best wiz/sorc spells in the game.

==Aelryinth


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Azten wrote:
Adept and Eldritch goslings can pick any stat for casting.

If you are allowing 3rd party material, I should point out that there is a feat called "Spell Finesse" that lets you change the casting stat of any spellcasting class to any other mental ability score.


SmiloDan wrote:

Archivist from 3.5's Heroes of Horror.

I miss this class! It was a gooder! Hope Paizo releases something similar someday. (Yes, I can convert, but I am thinking for society play, not home game)


Looking at playing this character in PFS so sadly stuck with those rules


ekibus wrote:
Biggest worry I would have is double checking the witch spell list and would I be giving up too much mainly giving up feats to manage to be a ok heal-type. I did see the herald caller and possibly there is a oracle I need to look into (think it was called psychic searcher) tie that in with a life oracle...might be something. I've always like the reach cleric idea...the big pain was the skills and how much you have to stretch the stats. Shaman is another I should double check

Why would Witch necessarily be more feat-starved than Cleric/Oracle/Shaman on account of spell list? On the other hand, if you do want to go Reach, this is harder to do with a Witch (due to 1/2 BAB), but also rules out the Shaman or Spirit Guide Oracle with effective use of the Lore Spirit (see above for MADness). Note that going Reach does consume a few feats no matter what class you are, if you want to make it really effective by doing Combat Maneuvers:

Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise (or Dirty Fighting from the Dirty Tactics Toolbox if PFS allows this -- seems to have a PFS Legal symbol on Archives of Nethys, at least)
Improved Combat Maneuver (usually Trip)
Greater Combat Maneuver (usually Trip; requires BAB +6, so a no-go for a 1/2 BAB character in PFS, even if you manage to overcome the disadvantage in ability to make attacks and Combat Maneuvers effective)


Silver Surfer wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:


Yep - cherry picking divine lists, supposedly including deity-specific spells, made the archivist VERY powerful.

And then Dark Knowledge giving bonuses on top of that.
Yes, VERY strong class.

==Aelryinth

Yes the Archivist was powerful, but not remotely OP as some made out.

What is forgotten is that the Archivist only received 2 cleric spells per level - any other divine spells had to be sought out and added correctly to his spellbook. He was in effect completely in the GM's pocket.... more so than any other class.

What is really interesting from a PF perspective is how easy it would be to transfer the class over.

The amount of times you hear.."A new D6 divine class would be too hard to design, you would have to re-do the cleric list and domains.... blahblahblah..."

Absolute nonsense... the Archivist is for a base class an incredibly simple concept and opens up a whole new load of possibilities.

I am sure Paizo could do a really flavoursome job but wont for some bizarre (and as yet unexplained) reason...!

Aelryinth already explained how the archivist is in pretty much the same boat as the wizard when it comes to spells - it only changes when the GM decides to play spike towards one specific class.

As far as the last part, I think it might be because the Archivist wasn't open licence, and anything that hews too close could cause legal issues.

One campaign I was in used the archivist as an order of learned priest - but defaulting to the druid list instead. They had glades much like druids had groves, except their trees were typically fruit bearing.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
ekibus wrote:
Biggest worry I would have is double checking the witch spell list and would I be giving up too much mainly giving up feats to manage to be a ok heal-type. I did see the herald caller and possibly there is a oracle I need to look into (think it was called psychic searcher) tie that in with a life oracle...might be something. I've always like the reach cleric idea...the big pain was the skills and how much you have to stretch the stats. Shaman is another I should double check

Why would Witch necessarily be more feat-starved than Cleric/Oracle/Shaman on account of spell list? On the other hand, if you do want to go Reach, this is harder to do with a Witch (due to 1/2 BAB), but also rules out the Shaman or Spirit Guide Oracle with effective use of the Lore Spirit (see above for MADness). Note that going Reach does consume a few feats no matter what class you are, if you want to make it really effective by doing Combat Maneuvers:

Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise (or Dirty Fighting from the Dirty Tactics Toolbox if PFS allows this -- seems to have a PFS Legal symbol on Archives of Nethys, at least)
Improved Combat Maneuver (usually Trip)
Greater Combat Maneuver (usually Trip; requires BAB +6, so a no-go for a 1/2 BAB character in PFS, even if you manage to overcome the disadvantage in ability to make attacks and Combat Maneuvers effective)

The issue I have with the witch is that based off my previous build, every level that I would get a hex I would convert that into lay on hands and then for my feats I would be taking extra hex to gain the hex...so that build would leave me almost no room for other feats...which if the spell list was ok, wouldn't be so bad but as you mentioned the base attack wouldn't be there either. It's not a bad route.

Agreed to go the lore route on shaman and oracle would be mad...but heck even a cleric is a bit mad when you break it down (no room for a dump stat)I tinkered with the Oracle last night and it felt like a lot of contorting. Psychic searcher gives you inspiration but you dont have the training for all the knowledge skills. Again not bad but not right. I'm gonna try to look at the shaman over the next day or so (work has started again) I might have to give up the dream of lore...but i did realize that the 4+ skills gives me some room

Shadow Lodge

You can do it as a cleric. The trick is, you have to accept you can't do everything, and so you pick and choose what you want to focus on.

Regarding skills: which skills are you looking for? A cleric still won't be a jack of all trades, but if you focus on just a few main skills, then you can patch class skills with traits.

Regarding MAD: The way around MAD for a cleric is to focus on buffs. No save needed means you're just as effective with a 15 WIS as a 19 WIS. You lose a couple bonus spells but you can make those back up later with the right headband. You can then be an archer and make do with lower STR and CON, or get Heavy Armor and Lightning Reflexes and dump DEX. In either case, you worry less about channeling.


I'm thinking 4+ int on skills offers me a lot of flexibility... I'm working on a herald caller cleric..I lose med armor and a domain but gain 4+int and some bonus summoning feats along with the ability to sack a prepared spell for either cure or summon spells. So far my rough idea puts me around 15str, 14 dex, 13 con, 12 int, 15 wis and 10 cha..skills would be diplomacy, know history, planes and religion followed by sense motive and spellcraft. I would go for a reach weapon


InVinoVeritas wrote:

You can do it as a cleric. The trick is, you have to accept you can't do everything, and so you pick and choose what you want to focus on.

Regarding skills: which skills are you looking for? A cleric still won't be a jack of all trades, but if you focus on just a few main skills, then you can patch class skills with traits.

Regarding MAD: The way around MAD for a cleric is to focus on buffs. No save needed means you're just as effective with a 15 WIS as a 19 WIS. You lose a couple bonus spells but you can make those back up later with the right headband. You can then be an archer and make do with lower STR and CON, or get Heavy Armor and Lightning Reflexes and dump DEX. In either case, you worry less about channeling.

Kicking channeling into touch is no shame!!

Dumping CHA completely and going heavy armour and some extra CON is always a good touch.

With an Aasimar cleric, its possible to start with a +3 to WIS and CHA and +1 to INT...

Alternatively theres the perennial fave... Dwarf... no encumbrance and amazing saves


ekibus wrote:
The issue I have with the witch is that based off my previous build, every level that I would get a hex I would convert that into lay on hands and then for my feats I would be taking extra hex to gain the hex... {. . .}

Lay on Hands? Do you mean Channel Energy from Hex Channeler? If you use this with Variant Channeling to provide a useful rider effect rather than to deal out multiple dice of healing or undead-damaging, you don't have to keep up on Channeling dice -- the rider effects of at least some types of Variant Channeling don't care how many Channeling dice you have, just your effective Cleric level (which is not detracted by skipping Channeling dice, which also doesn't reduce Channel Save DCs). If you mean the Healing Hex, that only consumes 1 Hex before 10th level and then another Hex at or after 10th level (assuming you want to upgrade it).

If you go Dwarf Cleric, Dwarf has a Forgemaster archetype that trades out Channel Energy for Armor/Weapon buffing abilities, and doesn't need Charisma. Sounds like you want Channel Energy, though, and this archetype doesn't give you more skill ranks per level (meaning that you will have to invest into Intelligence to get enough skill ranks for your crafting without hosing yourself for adventuring skills), although potentially you can get some of the points back by totally dumping Charisma (although conceptually I hate to do this unless a particular concept calls for it). Alternatively, you could be a Dwarf Herald Caller Cleric, and just spend enough points on Charisma to get rid of the penalty so that you have a few Channel Energy uses per day.

Channel Positive Energy is totally possible to get with Oracle or Shaman with the Life Mystery or Spirit (Channel Revelation), and then use Wandering Spirit to get Lore, or vice versa. But again, you run into the MAD problem, so that you won't be much good in physical combat (unless you can super-buff). Interestingly, Oracle/Shaman has no equivalent for Negative Energy Channeling, except for the limited type that can only be used for Command Undead (Undead Servitude Revelation of Bones or Juju Mystery/Spirit).

If you do go the Herald Caller route, see if you can convince the Rogue in your party to be equipped with a rough terrain velocipide.

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