Is Empiricist the most overrated archetype in the game?


Advice

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Grand Lodge

Lune wrote:
I like it because it mixes so well with the Swashbuckler's Inspired Blade Archetype. Swashigators are the best!

I agree here 100%

And to the OP question about it being the most overrated.....

No the Thug Rogue archetype is the most overrated archetype. It has a nitch that makes it slightly better than nilla rogue....but your still playing a rogue and have been CONed into believing this rogue is "good".


Aelryinth wrote:
Poisons are considered an evil thing to use, and cost money to use and time to apply in combat.

They are considered dishonorable, but I don't know of anything that labels them as evil.

Scarab Sages

My favorite investigator archetype is the Psychic Detective, but that's just because I like spontaneous spells MUCH more than prepared extracts.

In terms of power, Lamplighter and Empiricist both beat it hands down.


Aelryinth wrote:

Poisons are considered an evil thing to use, and cost money to use and time to apply in combat.

That shrinks the usefulness of this ability down to a VERY small fraction of players, mostly to NPC's.

Producing them out of combat is basically Meh. It's a situational bonus to the Craft check, is all (effectively, you make more silver/day when making alchemical items).

Not important in the overall scheme of things.

==Aelryinth

Not to mention, low and non-scaling DC, minor effect (when used on an NPC that doesn't persist in the game world after a given combat), and the fact that Poison Lore (along with all similar abilities) only make it so you can't poison yourself when applying poison - You still poison yourself on a Natural 1 attack roll.


Melkiador wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Poisons are considered an evil thing to use, and cost money to use and time to apply in combat.
They are considered dishonorable, but I don't know of anything that labels them as evil.

They were inherently evil in old DnD (up through version 3, I think--don't remember whether they were in 3.5), so a lot of people who started playing pre-Pathfinder might still have that mentality.


As an alternative "most overrated archetype" I offer up the Synthetist Summoner. Trading off Action economy for the ability to dump your physical stats. Tut tut.

Empiricists are pretty solid, at least equivalent to the basic Investigator. The Student of Philosophy trait makes them even better at what they do for a minimal (and fluff-appropriate) build investment.


Corvino wrote:
As an alternative "most overrated archetype" I offer up the Synthetist Summoner. Trading off Action economy for the ability to dump your physical stats. Tut tut.

Thank you for understanding the flame war baiting that is the true spirit of this thread :3


Gwen Smith wrote:
They were inherently evil in old DnD (up through version 3, I think--don't remember whether they were in 3.5), so a lot of people who started playing pre-Pathfinder might still have that mentality.

I thought it was more the fact that paladins cannot use poison without falling.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

and since the only things that make a paladin fall are evil acts...

==Aelryinth


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Aelryinth wrote:
and since the only things that make a paladin fall are evil acts...

Don't forget about gravity.


Aelryinth wrote:

and since the only things that make a paladin fall are evil acts...

==Aelryinth

Well no. Evil acts AND/OR breaking the code of conduct. Using poison is listed as an act in the Code of Conduct that is considered dishonourable, not evil. So, it's probably more that it's too Chaotic for the Lawful Good paladin.


Secret Wizard wrote:
Corvino wrote:
As an alternative "most overrated archetype" I offer up the Synthetist Summoner. Trading off Action economy for the ability to dump your physical stats. Tut tut.
Thank you for understanding the flame war baiting that is the true spirit of this thread :3

Grow up.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Chaotic acts don't make you fall. Evil ones do. Minor difference.

==Aelryinth

Grand Lodge

Aelryinth wrote:
Chaotic acts don't make you fall.

They do if they go against the code.


I have been enjoying my Empiricist in Hell's Rebels immensely.
But to each their own.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Chaotic acts don't make you fall.
They do if they go against the code.

True, but that's a bit different then 'all chaotic acts make you fall', which is what Evil does.

==Aelryinth


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Chaotic acts don't make you fall.
They do if they go against the code.

Good or Lawful acts also make you fall if they go against the code. There's nothing particularly chaotic about poison.

Grand Lodge

Aelryinth wrote:

True, but that's a bit different then 'all chaotic acts make you fall', which is what Evil does.

==Aelryinth

Then evil acts aren't the only ones that make a paladin fall.


Corvino wrote:
As an alternative "most overrated archetype" I offer up the Synthetist Summoner. Trading off Action economy for the ability to dump your physical stats. Tut tut.

Seconded. There are people who actually think it's better then the default Summoner for some reason. Don't get me wrong, it's great for playing with super dump stats, but those couple +'s don't justify giving away an additional swift, move and standard action every turn. Way overrated.


Anzyr wrote:
Corvino wrote:
As an alternative "most overrated archetype" I offer up the Synthetist Summoner. Trading off Action economy for the ability to dump your physical stats. Tut tut.
Seconded. There are people who actually think it's better then the default Summoner for some reason. Don't get me wrong, it's great for playing with super dump stats, but those couple +'s don't justify giving away an additional swift, move and standard action every turn. Way overrated.

Depends what's getting the actions. Eidolons are just martials. Summoners are medium casters with so much early spell access they may as well be full. Having a pseudo-full caster that's harder to put out of action is a lot better than a set of mere martial actions per turn.

Especially when that extra set of actions pops when the flimsier half of the pair drops.

Dark Archive

Corvino wrote:
As an alternative "most overrated archetype" I offer up the Synthetist Summoner.

I would actually consider allowing the Synthesist Summoner, but only if the player agrees not to dump any stat lower then 10.

Dark Archive

CampinCarl9127 wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
and since the only things that make a paladin fall are evil acts...
Don't forget about gravity.

Ipso facto gravity = evil.

"I smite the gravity!"


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Suthainn wrote:
CampinCarl9127 wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
and since the only things that make a paladin fall are evil acts...
Don't forget about gravity.

Ipso facto gravity = evil.

"I smite the gravity!"

The world trembles and objects start to levitate as the paladin riddles gravity full of arrows, dealing 7d8 + 856 + 14d6 ⇒ (4, 5, 7, 3, 6, 2, 5) + 856 + (2, 1, 6, 2, 3, 4, 5, 4, 5, 3, 2, 1, 1, 6) = 933 damage to the fabric of reality.


Atarlost wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Corvino wrote:
As an alternative "most overrated archetype" I offer up the Synthetist Summoner. Trading off Action economy for the ability to dump your physical stats. Tut tut.
Seconded. There are people who actually think it's better then the default Summoner for some reason. Don't get me wrong, it's great for playing with super dump stats, but those couple +'s don't justify giving away an additional swift, move and standard action every turn. Way overrated.

Depends what's getting the actions. Eidolons are just martials. Summoners are medium casters with so much early spell access they may as well be full. Having a pseudo-full caster that's harder to put out of action is a lot better than a set of mere martial actions per turn.

Especially when that extra set of actions pops when the flimsier half of the pair drops.

Some points.

Flimsier is relative. That flimsy bit has all the defensive abilities of any other 3/4 BAB, 3/4 Caster. They're just marketed at you poorly.

Second, having the caster and pet separate will always be superior than cramming them together. In terms of positioning you can stay safe with the caster bit while an expendable martial bit runs out and does it's thing. If the second part fails you can rapidly summon a field of bodies to keep your positional superiority. If the flimsy bit fails you can easily have taken a feat and you should have) to keep it around long enough to finish out the fight.

Action wise anzyr is right on the nose. By shoving yourself into the eidolon you limit yourself to either casting or "mere martial actions" when you can easily take both.

All synthesists give you is numbers while sacrificing that action and positioning superiority. In the hierarchy of things you want to have in combat your numbers advantage has to be utterly overwhelming to beat out both positioning and actions.

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