Is Empiricist the most overrated archetype in the game?

[Secret Wizard]

Seriously, why do people keep recommending that piece of trash?

Changing WIS/CHA/DEX to INT for a couple of skills (which are class skills anyway) equates at most to a +3 to those skills if you min/max like a fiend... whereas you could probably have gotten Use Magic Device, the only one that matters, as an INT skill through Pragmatic Activator.

And you get that... by losing POISON RESISTANCE. ON A LOW FORT SAVE CLASS. Also Poison Lore, which is pretty damn useful.

Then you trade away SWIFT ALCHEMY, probably one of the best, most useful features in the game, for a bonus to some Will saves... ON A HIGH WILL CLASS. Why are people even recommending this waste of ink?

[N. Jolly]

See, here I think Poison Resistance is trash. Bonuses to skills on a skill focused class seems amazing to me, and poison resistance was trade bait anyways. Swift Alchemy isn't anything too amazing for this class, and failing a will save ends encounters, making bonuses to them that much better.

Overall, it's probably the best investigator archetype around, although lamp lighter (I think that's what it's called) is probably a close second.

[Secret Wizard]

Poison Resistance is amazing. Your skills are stupid high anyway.

One of my players had an Investigator, vanilla, and he was rocking those 30-something Perception checks, on 20 point buy, no funny stuff. Expanded Inspiration makes sure you'll pass any check you need to pass. Anything else, to me, is wasted.

Now, his Investigator did almost die several times (this was Carrion Crown), and mostly due to Fort-targeting effects.

Will saves are covered by class chassis and worst case scenario, you can use Battle Inspiration to boost the save.

The fact that you underestimate Swift Alchemy makes me cry.

I'd say Empiricist is a terrible trade that only appeals to people who get a chubby for SAD characters, whereas you can make a perfectly serviceable character on 20 pt buy.

[Chess Pwn]

For me it was a 5 point difference in the skills and allowing a higher point buy for the other stats. He is pfs lv 10 and I have yet to see any poisons. And why is swift alchemy so good? It's not instant alchemy so your still not doing it in combat.

[N. Jolly]

Swift Alchemy is meh for Investigators, it's not their forte. Give it to an alchemist and we'll talk.

For opposed skills, nothing's ever high enough, and poison isn't the most common thing to go up against. What is a lot more common than poison is will saves, which are generally more important to make.

Making a SAD build can be useful, and it gives more points to throw into constitution to help balance out that lack of con bonus, so it's giving a bonus to all saves rather than just poison.

Again, it's probably the best one there is, but there's not a huge amount of competition.

[Azten]

In Serpent's Skull I've had characters die to poison. I've rarely seen poison anywhere else though, and no one has died from it in memory.

[Faelyn]

I agree with N. Jolly... Investigators deal with skills; that's their thing. Poison use is utterly worthless in Pathfinder. Poison Resistance is okay, I guess? If you run into poison all the time, then I'd say its good; however, I rarely run into poison with most games I've played.

And here's the thing... Restoration spells take care of any ability damage you take on a failed save. Which is pretty hard to do beyond low levels. The DCs for poisons are pretty lackluster.

Plus, for some people its more about the theme of the archetype. I personally feel like Empiricist should have been the default Investigator and Poison Use tagged onto an archetype.

[Secret Wizard]

I suppose you guys just don't like to kill your PCs.

[Exguardi]

Secret Wizard, you're discounting just how much benefit you get from said "fiendish" minmaxing.

Let's say in my original statistic distribution, I decided that I want to be pretty good at Perception and Disable Device, so I assign a 16 to WIS and 16 to DEX. I still want 16 INT for Investigator-y things, but as you say, I could spend a trait to get INT to UMD at least and thus continue to ignore CHA.

Now instead I take the Empiricist archetype and start with 20 INT. Now not only am I +2 "better" at Perception and Disable Device, I'm not penalized by lower WIS or DEX. I've also saved a trait and am again +2 "better" at UMD. At this point, I could spend my trait on, say, INT to Bluff and Diplomacy for even more complete coverage.

Each time I increase my INT, I automatically benefit in all of these skills; previously I benefitted only partially from particular statistic increases.

Let's also not discount the fact that the Investigator is (more-or-less) a spellcaster. The higher their primary statistic, the more extract slots they acquire, which means more Alchemical Allocations for all sorts of powerful stuff (including +10 to various skill checks and even more useful things).

Not to mention the fact that you don't actually lose your ability to craft alchemical items... stock up on +5 vs. poison-resist tonics if the possibility is that concerning.

[N. Jolly]

Secret Wizard wrote:

I suppose you guys just don't like to kill your PCs.

Not with poison, no. I prefer using will saves to impair them and then make them attack each other, a thing Empiricist helps avoid. Poisons are for the most part slow acting and rarely that viable past a certain level due to things like anti-toxin and such.

I'd rather be able to go 18 int/16 con than need to split my stats, not to mention Exguardi's point of getting a buff on all skills per int boost. Poison Use/Resistance just isn't that good or common.

[pauljathome]

The investigator is pretty much the class for people who want to play skill monkeys. That is what they want to do with this character or they'd have chosen a different class.

So, given that you want to play a skill monkey, getting massive bonuses on many, many skills is just wonderful. Not to mention it lets you maximize intelligence so you get EVEN MORE SKILL points.

Can it be overdone? Sure.
Does it hit limiting returns? Sure.
Is it fun? Darn tooting it is. And it is why I chose to play an Investigator. Or multiclass into it.

If I want to play some poison using dude I've almost certainly gone alchemist or rogue or ...... and NOT Investigator.

[Faelyn]

Secret Wizard wrote:

I suppose you guys just don't like to kill your PCs.

You're right. I don't intentionally attempt to kill off the PCs of my players all the time. I play my enemies intelligently and utilize everything at their disposal; however, I'm not going to create an encounter with the specific goal of killing off my player's characters.

If your players are fine with that type of play, then cool, go for it; however, most folks prefer not to have their PCs mercilessly slaughtered by the GM for whatever reason.

[Jaunt]

It's just a matter of how much value you place on things. If you think that Poison Resistance is a really big deal, you're buying Antitoxin and bringing it on every adventure, right? Or even taking it prophylactically? Because that's like a level 5 class feature for a small gold cost on a class that already is likely to have craft: alchemy.

Swift Alchemy is not even close to one of the best, most useful features in the game. Full casting? Have answers to every situation. That's one of the best. Picking up super good feats while bypassing useless and lengthy prereqs? Surpassing the practical limits on martials? That's one of the best. At will, scaling with level, potent SLAs? Those are amazing and class defining. Swift Alchemy? That's not even BOGO on a set of overpriced expendables. It's the functional equivalent of having a follower making alchemical items for you, but only on days when you're not personally busy.

If Disable Device, Perception(!) and Sense Motive don't matter to you as you say, I don't know why you'd play a skill-heavy character. Alchemist does most of the same things but better.

Poison isn't overly common. It tends to be something applied on hit, and you're not the front line character most of the time. You're (usually) not built for being hit. Immunity to illusions is kind of neat, but not amazing. Just like bonuses and eventual immunity to a subset of fort. Blanket will saves is great though, if you have the immediate action to spare.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a minor substitution, and I feel like I come out ahead by keying everything to int. +3 to a single skill is nominally feat equivalent, and I get somewhere between double and triple that.

[cavernshark]

Secret Wizard wrote:

Seriously, why do people keep recommending that piece of trash?

Is it arguable whether its more powerful than the base or not? Sure, but it's certainly not trash. It's exactly what you'd hope an archetype does - emphasize a particular aspect of the base class and minimizing another part a player doesn't want to use without compromising the character itself. For a lot of investigators, that trade off is reasonable and beneficial to the way they want to play.

To flip your own argument, not having to take Pragmatic Activator can be used to get a +1 Fort trait, which will be more universally useful across all kinds of fortitude effects. As for losing poison resistance, you're playing a class with access to Delay Poison, Neutralize Poison, and Alchemical Allocation should you prefer those in potion form. Finally, Swift Alchemy does nothing for people who aren't interested in using poisons or playing in a game where crafting is factor (PFS).

So, I'm not sure why you find it so appalling that people might might recommend this archetype.

[Ryan Freire]

Being an empiricist allowed me to make an 8 cha 12 wis investigator that can still use UMD, sense motive and gather information with diplomacy. I'm in a campaign that goes up to level 20 so i'll (if i survive) become completely immune to most illusion spells at level 16.

Poison and Illusions are both basically interchangeable, niche, gm dependent things to be resistant or immune to. Fair exchange there. Swift alchemy isn't all that interesting as the value of alchemical items drops off by mid level. I'd say its easily fair exchange for mainstat to those skills.

[PCScipio]

An Empiricist can always prepare and drink an extract of Delay Poison at the beginning of the day.

[DinosaursOnIce]

I find myself in agreement with the general sentiment that the features you lose aren't too big. I played a Tielfing Empiricist Investigator with Student of Philosophy. Never once did I find the lack of Poison related stuff or Swift Alchemy a real loss.

But I really enjoyed having a number of powerful skills run off of my primary stat. Best was being able to double dip with intelligence. More skills and better skills was very nice. To be fair, I super dumped charisma (a mighty 5) so the difference was more in the order of +8. That's before level ups. Wisdom was smaller but still favored intelligence (+3).

Swift Alchemy doesn't really seem to do a lot. I admit I just don't really value it. More of a "neat" thing that I have no qualms trading.

I've been playing Pathfinder for about a year and a half now, give or take, and I've played in a lot of one shots, like 3 APs, modules, and home brew (sadly most have fallen apart, hence the variety). I'm thinking the number of poisons I've ran into could be counted on one hand. Of those, I remember only one situation where the poison might have mattered. But a scroll of neutralize poison too care of the matter. I'm not saying that's how it is for everyone, but poisons in my experience just have never been common (or threatening) enough that I've ever really cared. Further, the number of illusions I've ran into have been about the same amount, so I really see the loss of poison resistance being a wash.

But also to echo the sentiment, I see the Investigator as being the "skill" class. Which the Empiricist archetype adds too, all so nicely.

Perhaps our experiences differ but mine suggest the Empiricist being pretty good.

[Alistair Quinnell]

My good sir, based on my adventuring experience I am afraid I must take issue with thy characterization of my skill set as a "piece of trash." If it is thy preference to rush unwittingly through the stronghold of thy foes, I shall not invest large amounts of time in arguing with thee. I shall, however, endeavor to be certain the rest of thy group proceeds with due caution to avoid being taken in by illusions, caught in traps, or deceived by crafty and underhanded knaves.

[Casual Viking]

Secret Wizard wrote:

Then you trade away SWIFT ALCHEMY, probably one of the best, most useful features in the game, for a bonus to some Will saves...

Seriously, what's the deal with Swift Alchemy? It changes crafting time from "downtime" to "a smaller amount of downtime", and you're still working nowhere near the 1.000 gp/day speed of enchantment.

[Rashagar]

I tend to use poisons more than what I now assume to be the average amount (after reading some of these comments) when I GM games because I find it a good way to vary encounters, and having more than one death counter in effect is nice and memorable. It just makes it more interesting for us. So if you were playing in my game, Poison Resistance would probably be of more value than SADdening your character's ability scores. In comparison, I dislike effects that are all-or-nothing "now you don't get to take part in this encounter", like some will save effects are. So in my game you wouldn't tend to have as much "encounter ending" will saves, but they do still tend to come up for the more interesting effects.

So basically, which archetype is more effective depends on the kind of game you're in, but that kind of thinking shouldn't really dictate which option you choose. Go for whichever feels right for your character concept.

[Lune]

I like it because it mixes so well with the Swashbuckler's Inspired Blade Archetype. Swashigators are the best!

[Ventnor]

Lune wrote:

I like it because it mixes so well with the Swashbuckler's Inspired Blade Archetype. Swashigators are the best!

Is your character also a Scaleheart Skinwalker, out of curiosity?

[Rub-Eta]

Swift Alchemy is nice, as long as you actually create alchemical items, use them and while not using the spontaneous alchemy rules. I'd recomend them as they make it feasible to create alchemical items, unlike the regular crafting rules. Everything poison is kinda meh, not often that I use it as a DM and even less thrown at me as a player.
It's far from the worst archetype, as it actually gives something. Some other archetypes are so bad that even a specialised NPC would be better of as the vanilla class.

[Lune]

Ventnor: Nope.

Here, I'll show you how I plan on building.

Spoiler:

Str 8
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 16+2
Wis 10
Cha 12

Swashbuckler levels are all Inspired Blade
Investigator levels are all Empiricist
1st
Swashbuckler 1
Inspired Penache, Inspired Finesse, Derring-Do, Dodging Penache, Opportune Parry and Riposte, Weapon Focus: Rapier (bonus), Fencing Grace (1st), Fast Learner (human)
2nd
Investigator 1
Alchemy, Inspiration, Trapfinding
3rd
Investigator 2
Ceaseless Observation, Extra Inspiration (3rd)
4th
Investigator 3
Talent: Mutagen, Keen Recollection, Trap Sense +1
5th
Investigator 4
Studied Combat, Studied Strike: 1d6, Unfailing Logic, Extra Talent: Expanded Inspiration (5th)
6th
Investigator 5
Talent: Quick Study
7th
Investigator 6
Studied Strike: 2d6, Trap Sense +2, Extra Talent: Trap Spotter (7th)
8th
Investigator 7
Talent: Effortless Aid
9th
Investigator 8
Studied Strike: 3d6, Extra Talent: Inspirational Expertise (9th)
10th
Investigator 9
Talent: Underworld Inspiration, Trap Sense +3
11th
Investigator 10
Studied Strike: 4d6, Extra Talent: Combat Inspiration (11th)
12th
Investigator 11
Talent: Amazing Inspiration, Poison Immunity

He is currently level 2 in PFS and has been very effective so far.

[Ventnor]

I... I was trying to make a pun...

[Cavall]

Fort saves (all fort saves, not just poison) can be saved with inspiration. So it's not a huge loss at all. Gaining a bonus to will saves (arguably the most crucial save) to a class that's likely going to bottom out wisdom (because it traded away most skills linked to it for now intelligence ) means you'll be strong without having to max or even average in wisdom.

Lots of gains.

I do like swift alchemy, but for those focused less on that side, it's really a great trade.

[Heretek]

Just joining the choir. Empircist is amazing. Any investigator not picking it up is typically making a very poor decision. If you're in a campaign where poison matters then sure, maybe, otherwise the pros vastly outweigh what few cons it has.

Empiricist or go home.

[TarkXT]

It's not overrated because I never once said to myself. "Boy it sure would be great if I could make this tanglefoot bag marginally faster than normal."

Besides that the illusion "resistance" is roughly the same as the poison resistance.

[Lune]

lol, how did I not get that? I guess text comes across as more literal.

[Jakynth]

Sounds to me like the OP just wanted everyone to agree with how right he THOUGHT he was. Personally I like the archetype. However, the secret is out Secret Wizard, not everyone has the same thoughts as you when it comes to class mechanics.

[Chess Pwn]

So just a note/clarification for those saying empiricist helps with will saves.

We do all know that any will save help is just against illusions right. You gain a bonus to illusions and as immediate you can use in instead of wis for saves against illusions.

[Jaunt]

I'll admit I missed that in my hurried response, no problem. Even if you're just trading poison saves for illusion saves and breaking even, I think the SADding aspects are totally worth giving up...uh...Swift Alchemy and Poison Lore? Yeah.

[Arachnofiend]

TarkXT wrote:

It's not overrated because I never once said to myself. "Boy it sure would be great if I could make this tanglefoot bag marginally faster than normal."

Besides that the illusion "resistance" is roughly the same as the poison resistance.

For the record, I'm pretty sure I've died/nearly died to Color Spray more times than any poison.

[Secret Wizard]

Jakynth wrote:

Sounds to me like the OP just wanted everyone to agree with how right he THOUGHT he was. Personally I like the archetype. However, the secret is out Secret Wizard, not everyone has the same thoughts as you when it comes to class mechanics.

I accept and celebrate a diversity of opinions.

Doesn't mean you aren't all wrong and I'm the only one who is right.

[Jakynth]

Secret Wizard wrote:

Jakynth wrote:

Sounds to me like the OP just wanted everyone to agree with how right he THOUGHT he was. Personally I like the archetype. However, the secret is out Secret Wizard, not everyone has the same thoughts as you when it comes to class mechanics.

I accept and celebrate a diversity of opinions.

Doesn't mean you aren't all wrong and I'm the only one who is right.

The word egotistical comes to mind.

[Secret Wizard]

Jakynth wrote:

Secret Wizard wrote:

Jakynth wrote:

Sounds to me like the OP just wanted everyone to agree with how right he THOUGHT he was. Personally I like the archetype. However, the secret is out Secret Wizard, not everyone has the same thoughts as you when it comes to class mechanics.

I accept and celebrate a diversity of opinions.

Doesn't mean you aren't all wrong and I'm the only one who is right.

The word egotistical comes to mind.

I prefer "categorical".

[Scythia]

Secret Wizard wrote:

Jakynth wrote:

Secret Wizard wrote:

Jakynth wrote:

Sounds to me like the OP just wanted everyone to agree with how right he THOUGHT he was. Personally I like the archetype. However, the secret is out Secret Wizard, not everyone has the same thoughts as you when it comes to class mechanics.

I accept and celebrate a diversity of opinions.

Doesn't mean you aren't all wrong and I'm the only one who is right.

The word egotistical comes to mind.

I prefer "categorical".

Is it categorically possible to categorize the categories of self-importance?

[Secret Wizard]

Yes.

[Rub-Eta]

I really wouldn't call it overrated, it's nice and that's that. It's an archtype that a lot of people are intrested in, as it furthers the abilities they where looking for and what got them intrested in the Investigator in the first place. Though I've not heard anybody claim that it's always better than a regual Investigator (unlike some other classes and archtypes).

[Ryan Freire]

The big thing is that there's a solid difference between being a SAD class as a martial or caster with 2+int and being a SAD class as a skill based class with 6+int, where Int is the main stat.

Skill based classes have always had a certain amount of MAD about them just because of attribute association with skills. Reducing that, particularly for key skills like UMD and Perception is a much bigger effect for the investigator. The ability to focus on Int not only makes your studied combat last longer but provides you with more skills that you can max ranks on, more infusions and extracts, and higher DC's for the extracts you have that do have a save dc.

[Heretek]

Rub-Eta wrote:

Though I've not heard anybody claim that it's always better than a regual Investigator (unlike some other classes and archtypes).

It is though.

[Shisumo]

Heretek wrote:

Rub-Eta wrote:

Though I've not heard anybody claim that it's always better than a regual Investigator (unlike some other classes and archtypes).

It is though.

I'll go even further, actually. I think you need a pretty good and specific reason to make an investigator who is not an empiricist.

[N. Jolly]

Shisumo wrote:

Heretek wrote:

Rub-Eta wrote:

Though I've not heard anybody claim that it's always better than a regual Investigator (unlike some other classes and archtypes).

It is though.

I'll go even further, actually. I think you need a pretty good and specific reason to make an investigator who is not an empiricist.

It's blue in my guide for a reason. Pretty sure the other investigator guide has it rated highly as well.

[Cavall]

Well, I guess if you have the reasons provided in the OP for what you want out of the class, it's not very good. Reason enough.

[dado1090]

Secret Wizard wrote:

Jakynth wrote:

Sounds to me like the OP just wanted everyone to agree with how right he THOUGHT he was. Personally I like the archetype. However, the secret is out Secret Wizard, not everyone has the same thoughts as you when it comes to class mechanics.

I accept and celebrate a diversity of opinions.

Doesn't mean you aren't all wrong and I'm the only one who is right.

After every single one explained so well and in detail why your opinion is probably wrong...i feel to disagree: although your opinion is legitimate; your arguments are weak. :-)

[My Self]

Secret Wizard, can you take a moment to explain why Swift Alchemy is good? From what I can see, it only halves the time it takes to make Alchemical craft checks, and gives another action with which you can apply poison to a weapon. In my games, I haven't seen anybody make a Craft (Alchemy) check in play, and only once have I seen someone actually try to use poison. I'm genuinely curious what makes Swift Alchemy powerful.

[Secret Wizard]

The sheer amount of alchemical items players have access to and the variety of poisons an Investigator could use. It rewards the better prepared players.

[Aelryinth]

Poisons are considered an evil thing to use, and cost money to use and time to apply in combat.

That shrinks the usefulness of this ability down to a VERY small fraction of players, mostly to NPC's.

Producing them out of combat is basically Meh. It's a situational bonus to the Craft check, is all (effectively, you make more silver/day when making alchemical items).

Not important in the overall scheme of things.

==Aelryinth

[Arachnofiend]

Poisons are also generally not effective unless you're an NPC capable of spending your entire WBL quadrupling down on doses. The majority of Investigators are going to get more mileage out of just stabbing people.

[Faelyn]

Secret Wizard wrote:

Jakynth wrote:

Sounds to me like the OP just wanted everyone to agree with how right he THOUGHT he was. Personally I like the archetype. However, the secret is out Secret Wizard, not everyone has the same thoughts as you when it comes to class mechanics.

I accept and celebrate a diversity of opinions.

Doesn't mean you aren't all wrong and I'm the only one who is right.

I don't believe that anyone is wrong or right in this discussion; it is not one that can be 'proved' either way. It is simply a disagreement on the mechanical aspects of a class and its archetype. However, when making a post heavy-loaded with such apparent loathing towards something, then one can expect to receive dissenting opinions.