Yes, you can parry touch attacks. There is no ruling, because there's no real question.
Yes, the concept of held charges discharging on contact gets weird sometimes.
I don't see why not. It's a melee attack, so you can parry it. Think of it like you smacking your attacker's arm away as they reach for you.
What I want to see is a pair of swashbucklers engage in a parry-duel: The first one attacks, the second parries and ripostes, the first one parries the riposte and attacks back, and the second one parries in response. Tell me if this happens in your game.
Have had that situation many many times in Earthdawn, where the Swordmaster Class has a near identical power and mechanic resolution.
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I'd say it should work, and I wouldn't expect too much controversy since your blocking the attack with your weapon. I've seen greater doubts when my PC tries to block a touch attack with Crane Wing since people reason that the monster is still coming into contact with him. The fact that shields don't count against touch attacks strikes me as pretty weird. I mean, incorporeal creatures could reach right through them, but it seems like a shield should be able to obstruct a caster with a held charge...oh well...
I'd say it should work, and I wouldn't expect too much controversy since your blocking the attack with your weapon. I've seen greater doubts when my PC tries to block a touch attack with Crane Wing since people reason that the monster is still coming into contact with him. The fact that shields don't count against touch attacks strikes me as pretty weird. I mean, incorporeal creatures could reach right through them, but it seems like a shield should be able to obstruct a caster with a held charge...oh well...
I think the reason is the caster can touch the shield, thuds you, and inflict the charge on you.
Especially, Shocking grasp.
I'd say it should work, and I wouldn't expect too much controversy since your blocking the attack with your weapon. I've seen greater doubts when my PC tries to block a touch attack with Crane Wing since people reason that the monster is still coming into contact with him. The fact that shields don't count against touch attacks strikes me as pretty weird. I mean, incorporeal creatures could reach right through them, but it seems like a shield should be able to obstruct a caster with a held charge...oh well...
In general, the game considers gear you wear to be "you." Basically anything you are holding and wearing gets your saves/defenses barring special/specific rules. This also goes the other way, touching "you" is the same as touching your personal body. Be it the shield you are holding, the weapon you attack with, the armor over the clothes you wear, it is "you."
The touch attack doesn't require any real accuracy or force, just the barest contact to unleash its effect. So the game doesn't differentiate between the 3inches of steel on your shoulder or the inch and half of steel your shoving against the opponent to make it difficult to hit you.
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I'd say it should work, and I wouldn't expect too much controversy since your blocking the attack with your weapon. I've seen greater doubts when my PC tries to block a touch attack with Crane Wing since people reason that the monster is still coming into contact with him. The fact that shields don't count against touch attacks strikes me as pretty weird. I mean, incorporeal creatures could reach right through them, but it seems like a shield should be able to obstruct a caster with a held charge...oh well...In general, the game considers gear you wear to be "you." Basically anything you are holding and wearing gets your saves/defenses barring special/specific rules. This also goes the other way, touching "you" is the same as touching your personal body. Be it the shield you are holding, the weapon you attack with, the armor over the clothes you wear, it is "you."
The touch attack doesn't require any real accuracy or force, just the barest contact to unleash its effect. So the game doesn't differentiate between the 3inches of steel on your shoulder or the inch and half of steel your shoving against the opponent to make it difficult to hit you.
Skylancer4 is right.
Note that the held charge wouldn't discharge, if you "parry" with crane wing probably you aren't touching th attacker hand, instead you are hitting his arm to deflect it (don't ask how that work when you are deflecting a dragon bite).
Relevant FAQ:
Deflecting Attacks: Does an attack that is deflected count as a miss?It depends on the ability that is deflecting the attack.
For example, the Deflect Arrows feat says, "Once per round when you would normally be hit with an attack from a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it." It doesn't say the attack is a miss or is treated as a miss--instead, you take no damage from the attack. Because it is not a miss, effects that would trigger on a miss (such as Efreeti Style or Snake Fang from Ultimate Combat) are not triggered.
Likewise, the Crane Wing feat (Ultimate Combat) uses similar language and does not say the deflected attack is a miss or treated as a miss.
Note that the Snatch Arrows feat counts as a deflected attack--you do not take damage if you choose to catch the weapons instead of just deflecting it, and catching the weapon does not mean the attack was a miss.
Update 5/29/13: If the attack is deflected, not only does the target take no damage, but any other effects (ability drain, negative levels, harmful conditions, and so on) associated with that attack do not occur. If the deflected attack is a touch spell or other effect that requires "holding the charge," the charge is not expended. For example, if a ghoul's claw attack is deflected, the target is not subject to the ghoul's paralysis ability from the attack. If a shocking grasp touch attack is deflected, the attacker is still "holding the charge." The Crane Wing feat will be updated in a future printing of Ultimate Combat to clarify these issues.
Please, add some favorite to this thread asking for a FAQ search feature.
When it comes to Crane Wing and touch attacks I kind of imagine redirecting the attack by hitting the enemy's wrist or something as Diego Rossi mentioned. When it comes to touch attacks ignoring shields I understand how the rules work but simply don't like them.
Starbuck_II had a good point about Shocking Grasp being thematically well suited to hurting you despite your shield. Shocking Grasp already gets a +3 to hit targets who wear metal armor though. I’d think that another special rule saying metal shields don’t count against it would be better than a general rule that shields don’t count against touch attacks. The idea of a caster with Vampiric Touch sucking your soul out through your shield doesn’t seem very cool to me. I suppose that might be a matter of taste though I also feel like touch attacks in general could use some nerfing.
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In D&D you equipment is within your own aura (i.e. it shares your saves, protections and so on), so it don't protect against attacks that target your aura (i.e. touch attacks).
BTW: vampiric touch don't touch your soul at all, it touch you vital energy.
If a shield protect against it, why your dress don't? After all the enemy is touching a piece of cloth, not you.
All the adventurers would go around in burqa, welder glasses and gloves, leaving not even an inch of their skin exposed. Great way to be immune to all touch attacks if an interposed piece of equipment stop them.
Shocking somebody by touching their sword with Shocking Grasp seems kind of cool to me. Sucking out their vital energy through their sword doesn't. Maybe it does to other people.
I'd consider a shield or certainly a sword to be "held" more than "worn", so I wouldn't see a problem with allowing a shield to block Vampiric Touch but not allowing a burqa to do so. Obviously that would be a house rule though, and probably few people besides me would have much interest in it.
Shocking somebody by touching their sword with Shocking Grasp seems kind of cool to me. Sucking out their vital energy through their sword doesn't. Maybe it does to other people.
I'd consider a shield or certainly a sword to be "held" more than "worn", so I wouldn't see a problem with allowing a shield to block Vampiric Touch but not allowing a burqa to do so. Obviously that would be a house rule though, and probably few people besides me would have much interest in it.
But you are imposing distinctions that don't actually exist in-game. Combat is a jumble of a myriad of things shrunk down to numbers to make it manageable. Where you say sucking soul through sword, I say grabbing the hand holding the sword. Where you say sucking the soul through the shield, I say grabbing the arm holding the shield. Your complaint amounts to not liking how it could be "fluffed" when another explanation works.
Another way to look at it, holding a big plank of wood and metal gets in the way of you dodging or evading touch attacks. Because it is it's own worst enemy, you gain no bonuses from it. It doesn't penalize, but it doesn't benefit you either.
Touching the arm holding the shield might be the same in game terms as touching the shield, but in purely descriptive terms it seems rather different to me. Anyhow, blocking attacks is what shields are for. As I recall there's even a feat which allows you to block rays with your shield even though the shield usually counts for nothing against rays. Once again I find it odd that hitting somebody's shield with Scorching Ray would hurt them just as badly as a direct hit (sure, you can say the spell heats up the shield and hurts them through it - with Admonishing Ray I guess the shield could jostle the wielder - there's always a way to explain why it should work though it mostly seems counter intuitive to me)
To me saying that the shield is too slow and clumsy to block touch attacks just seems like another excuse to make the RAW seem more sensible. I mean, is the touch attack of a feeble Wizard with 10 Str and 12 Dex that much quicker and harder to block than the skillful daggers of a high level Rogue with 24 Dex?
Like you folks say though, the game has rules, and they have to boil down to numbers. I know what the rules are, but I think they could be better in this case. Obviously we deeply disagree on "flavor" here, and that's a matter of taste which we're unlikely to resolve except by each preferring our own version (granted that the official rules support your way of envisioning it). I also happen to feel that letting shields count against touch AC might be better from a game mechanics standpoint since it can be pretty tough to defend touch AC, but I'd expect even less agreement there (and less than none isn't much at all!)
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A touch attack require a touch, a knife attach require to hit with enough force that it pierce the skin and muscles (or what make up your target).
Pick a old vase. Touch it so that it fall to the ground and shatter. What force you have used?
Do the same, but you must break the vase with your blow. What force is needed to do that?
So yes, a touch is way easier to deliver than a hit that should wound a target.
The problem, Devilkiller, is that if touching the shield doesn't count then neither does touching armor.
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The problem, Devilkiller, is that if touching the shield doesn't count then neither does touching armor.
But there's touching and then there's touching. Apparently.
The problem, Devilkiller, is that if touching the shield doesn't count then neither does touching armor.But there's touching and then there's touching. Apparently.
And mechanically the game dictates what counts and what doesn't.
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A taser would be a touch attack.
The tip of the taser is what produces the effect.
You wouldn't parry a taser by jamming your hand into the contacts on the tip of the taser.
Right?
You can parry 'touch' attacks.
A laser would be a touch attack too, and it still seems to me that getting hit with a laser should hurt more than blocking a laser with your shield (assuming your shield was made of something which might be able to block a laser - say adamantine)
@Arachnofiend - It seems like it would be a simple matter to distinguish between items worn and those merely held. I'd also find it kind of odd if somebody touching your weapon (staff, katana, musket) should hurt you though based on previous posts it sounds like that's the case "by the rules".
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A taser would be a touch attack.
The tip of the taser is what produces the effect.
You wouldn't parry a taser by jamming your hand into the contacts on the tip of the taser.
Right?
You can parry 'touch' attacks.
We've long since gotten past that, we are now on the "my shield should help vs touch attacks, it makes no sense it doesn't help" argument.
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A laser would be a touch attack too, and it still seems to me that getting hit with a laser should hurt more than blocking a laser with your shield (assuming your shield was made of something which might be able to block a laser - say adamantine)
@Arachnofiend - It seems like it would be a simple matter to distinguish between items worn and those merely held. I'd also find it kind of odd if somebody touching your weapon (staff, katana, musket) should hurt you though based on previous posts it sounds like that's the case "by the rules".
Good point about the laser... chalk it up to "maaaaaagic"... and move on. :D
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We've long since gotten past that, we are now on the "my shield should help vs touch attacks, it makes no sense it doesn't help" argument.A taser would be a touch attack.
The tip of the taser is what produces the effect.
You wouldn't parry a taser by jamming your hand into the contacts on the tip of the taser.
Right?
You can parry 'touch' attacks.
Hrm. I sort of agree that shields could help with it... I don't think it would break anything.
Minor tweak, just state that shield bonus adds to touch AC. I like it!
We've long since gotten past that, we are now on the "my shield should help vs touch attacks, it makes no sense it doesn't help" argument.A taser would be a touch attack.
The tip of the taser is what produces the effect.
You wouldn't parry a taser by jamming your hand into the contacts on the tip of the taser.
Right?
You can parry 'touch' attacks.
Hrm. I sort of agree that shields could help with it... I don't think it would break anything.
Minor tweak, just state that shield bonus adds to touch AC. I like it!
And the other side of that is, for as many reasons it could work, there an equal amount of reasons it might not help.
So they errored on the side of less complicated. I'm all for it (the way it is now)!
@Skylander4 - I don't think that adding shield bonuses to the list of things which count for touch AC would really be a significant increase in complexity. Getting rid of touch attacks would reduce complexity though it would also recommend moving a lot of spells like Scorching Ray from using touch attacks to allowing your caster level to count as your BAB (like some other spells already do). That's probably too much change though, especially since most people are used to the complexity and many feel that it is a good simulation of how things should work in the game world. Touch attacks aside, the Armor Class system in general seems a little weird, but it is a Tradition, and we're all pretty used to it by now.
@alex1976 - I'm glad to see that what I was saying makes sense to somebody. I figured that the laser should remove the idea of magical auras a bit.
@Skylander4 - I don't think that adding shield bonuses to the list of things which count for touch AC would really be a significant increase in complexity. Getting rid of touch attacks would reduce complexity though it would also recommend moving a lot of spells like Scorching Ray from using touch attacks to allowing your caster level to count as your BAB (like some other spells already do). That's probably too much change though, especially since most people are used to the complexity and many feel that it is a good simulation of how things should work in the game world. Touch attacks aside, the Armor Class system in general seems a little weird, but it is a Tradition, and we're all pretty used to it by now.
@alex1976 - I'm glad to see that what I was saying makes sense to somebody. I figured that the laser should remove the idea of magical auras a bit.
The system isn't perfect... but it works.
In our games, we don't use anything more advanced than black powder firearms, so it doesn't really come up.
Except for that one time my party accidentally detonated an antimatter drive in a downed spaceship.
Even the bloody skeletons were destroyed. :(
I think it would have been pretty funny if the bloody skeletons came back an hour later like usual though an exploding anitmatter drive is probably an area effect rather than a touch attack, so we're even further off topic than before (though I think the OP's question has long since been answered)