How does the Bloodrager's level 11 ability Greater Bloodrage interact with its Arcane bloodline lvl 8 ability Greater Arcane Bloodrage? Do you get the benefits of both? Do you also get the benefit of the Arcane bloodline's lvl 4 ability Arcane Bloodrage?
Greater Bloodrage (Bloodrager lvl 11 ability):
At 11th level, when a bloodrager enters a bloodrage, the morale bonus to his Strength and Constitution increases to +6 and the morale bonus on his Will saves increases to +3. In addition, upon entering a bloodrage, the bloodrager can apply the effects a bloodrager spell he knows of 2nd level or lower to himself. The spell must have a range of touch or personal. If the spell's duration is greater than 1 round, it instead lasts for the duration of the bloodrage. This use consumes a bloodrager spell slot, as if he had cast the spell; he must have the spell slot available to take advantage of this effect.
Greater bloodrage counts as the barbarian's greater rage ability for the purposes of feat prerequisites, feat abilities, magic item abilities, and spell effects.
Arcane Bloodrage (Arcane bloodline lvl 4 ability):
At 4th level, when entering a bloodrage you can choose one of the following spells and apply its effects to yourself: blur, protection from arrows, resist energy (choose one energy type), or spider climb. These effects last for as long as you continue bloodraging, regardless of the spell's normal duration.
Greater Arcane Bloodrage (Arcane bloodline lvl 8 ability):
At 8th level, when entering a bloodrage, you can choose to apply the effects of either displacement or haste to yourself. This is in addition to arcane bloodrage, and otherwise works as that ability.
Chess Pwn wrote: yes, why wouldn't they? Just double-checking to make sure. 3 spell effects as a free action seemed insane, but that's cool!
The first one, however, must have a spell slot used for it.
The other two are "free" as long as you have bloodrage rounds.
Yeah, Greater Bloodrage requires you to expend the spell slot so it's not completely free.
But yes, this is pretty much the reason why the Arcane Bloodrager is hands down the best bloodrager.
You can roll with (assuming an ally is likely to cast haste) resist energy, displacement, and mirror image to provide so much damage avoidance that it's hard for anyone to really harm you.
*You roll against displacement and mirror image separately for each attack.
Most bloodlines give spell-ish abilities while blood raging though. Arcane is just more blatant about it.
I still prefer Destined bloodline due to the bonuses to both AC and all saves, but Arcane does look like a hell of a lot of fun.
Destined is pretty good, but keep in mind that Mirror Image and Displacement provide a lot more damage avoidance than +5 to AC. +5 to AC is roughly equal to 25% damage avoidance.
Displacement is 50%, and mirror image can be as high as ~89% (8 images + you) though it will decrease over time as images are destroyed.
The main bonus IMO is the bonus to saves which is quite good.
At the same time Superstition (from Primal archetype) can make up for this partially, though comes with it's own problems.
This does bring up a question though, if you have both Mirror Image and displacement should you roll for the 50% miss chance from displacement first and then roll against mirror image? It matters whether or not the mirror image gets popped and then misses, or if the attack just misses from displacement and nothing happens.
I think with mirror image's line:
Quote: If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. You roll against displacement first, and if the attack hits through displacement's miss chance then you would roll against mirror image.
I will also add that Destined has less "really good" powers compared to Arcane which means it hurts less to give up bloodline powers which lets you take more rage powers with the Primal Archetype.
Displacement is great, no doubt about it. I'd prefer it over a +5 to AC for sure, but the reason I prefer Destined doesn't really just come from that one thing. First, Displacement doesn't protect against spells that doesn't require an attack roll. Another reason is that, as you mentioned it's easier to get Rage Powers using Destined. So if you want the Beast Totem line you'd have to wait longer, or possibly give up CAGM or Superstition to get it if you're Arcane. No Beast Totem means another -4 or so to AC, and a major delay to pounce.
Pounce is nice, but pretty much the only thing worthwhile from the entire Beast Totem line for an Arcane Bloodrager. The avoidance is worth so much more than the AC IMO, but I can understand your position. We just value different things and that's okay.
Personally with my Bloodrager I just picked up Superstition and Come and Get Me and ignored Beast Totem (this was a level 14 build). I decided that pounce in general was too good and didn't want to hog the show. I'd already played enough CaGM Superstitious Pouncing Barbarians. I didn't need to add spells to him to make him even more overwhelming.
As an interesting aside, a bloodrager can use a wand of monstrous physique II to turn into a tikbalang, giving them pounce for 7 minutes at 420 gp per casting. It also gives +4 strength and +4 natural armor, large size, and a bite and two hoof attacks you can use in addition to your weapons. Not a bad alternative to beast totem at high levels.
Avoron wrote: As an interesting aside, a bloodrager can use a wand of monstrous physique II to turn into a tikbalang, giving them pounce for 7 minutes at 420 gp per casting. It also gives +4 strength and +4 natural armor, large size, and a bite and two hoof attacks you can use in addition to your weapons. Not a bad alternative to beast totem at high levels. That's a good idea. And reasonably affordable by the level you would ordinarily get pounce.
Claxon wrote: Destined is pretty good, but keep in mind that Mirror Image and Displacement provide a lot more damage avoidance than +5 to AC. +5 to AC is roughly equal to 25% damage avoidance.
Displacement is 50%, and mirror image can be as high as ~89% (8 images + you) though it will decrease over time as images are destroyed.
The main bonus IMO is the bonus to saves which is quite good.
At the same time Superstition (from Primal archetype) can make up for this partially, though comes with it's own problems.
This does bring up a question though, if you have both Mirror Image and displacement should you roll for the 50% miss chance from displacement first and then roll against mirror image? It matters whether or not the mirror image gets popped and then misses, or if the attack just misses from displacement and nothing happens.
I think with mirror image's line:
Quote: If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. You roll against displacement first, and if the attack hits through displacement's miss chance then you would roll against mirror image.
I will also add that Destined has less "really good" powers compared to Arcane which means it hurts less to give up bloodline powers which lets you take more rage powers with the Primal Archetype.
+5AC is not around 25% damage avoidance. It depends on what chance the creature had to hit you. If it hits you on:
RTH RTH-5 Damage Avoidance
-2 3 95 90 5.26%
-1 4 95 85 10.53%
0 5 95 80 15.79%
1 6 95 75 21.05%
2 7 95 70 26.32%
3 8 90 65 27.78%
4 9 85 60 29.41%
5 10 80 55 31.25%
6 11 75 50 33.33%
7 12 70 45 35.71%
8 13 65 40 38.46%
9 14 60 35 41.67%
10 15 55 30 45.45%
11 16 50 25 50.00%
12 17 45 20 55.56%
13 18 40 15 62.50%
14 19 35 10 71.43%
15 20 30 5 83.33%
16 21 25 5 80.00%
17 22 20 5 75.00%
18 23 15 5 66.67%
19 24 10 5 50.00%
20 25 5 5 0.00%
Damage avoidance is as low as 0 (if he already needed a 20 to hit you), up to 83% (if he needed a 15 to hit you). In general damage avoidance is much higher than 25% for +5AC
To be fair at the relavent level (12) destined is only a +4 (3+ fates favored). But it also stays relavent as its harder to counter. True seeing shuts arcanes defenses down hard and you'll probably start seeing that as you get above 12.
Claxon wrote: We just value different things and that's okay. Yep, I totally get where you're coming from too man!
+5 AC changes their chance to hit by an absolute 25%, you're just looking at it from a statistical perspective rather than assuming that they are a CR appropriate enemy who can't roll a -2 to hit that each point of AC increase decrease each individual chance to be hit by 5 absolute%.
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