Does flaming/frost/shocking/corrosive count as weapon damage for swarm immunities?
Strictly rules, probably. Though torches are called out as working on swarms (they can be used as clubs with 1 fire damage, IIRC), so they probably should work, and aren't too strong anyway.
no they are energy damage so that portion works, if they where weapon damage they be subject to DR.
KainPen wrote: no they are energy damage so that portion works, if they where weapon damage they be subject to DR. Not necessarily true. There is the Battle Poi that is a weapon that does Fire damage. There is also the spell Silver Darts that does piercing damage and is subject to DR, but is not weapon damage.
However, I would always rule that the additional damage from flaming/whatever is additional damage, and would allow it to work.
had a player with innate DR 10 vs fire pour a flask oil(or alchemist fire?) on them selves, light it, then run into a swarm to save the rest of party...
Not sure.
Firstly, Swarms do not have Damage Reduction. They either take half damage from piercing or slashing weapons (Tiny creatures) or no weapon damage (any smaller creatures). That said, the Swarm creature type doesn't have any sort of "DR x/whatever."
There is no mention of immunity to any types of energy damage, so I would assume that the energy portion of the attack would affect a Swarm, but it is not specifically spelled out.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
The issue isn't energy vs. physical, but weapon (i.e. localized) vs. area of effect. The idea is that the swarm is made of so many individuals, that killing a few doesn't affect the "swarm" as a whole. Your weapon may cut a dozen individual rats or cockroaches etc. in half, but that is just 12 out of Hundreds if not Thousands (diminutive swarm is 1500 to 5000 individuals).
Read the Swarm subtype. There is no mention of "energy" damage. Only immune to weapons and +50% from AoE. That's it.
OP: Yes, because it targets a specific number of individuals instead of the swarm in it's entirety.
j b 200 wrote: OP: Yes, because it targets a specific number of individuals instead of the swarm in it's entirety. Debatable. The paragraph discussing targeting a specific number of individuals is in regards to "spells or effects." The previous paragraph discusses weapon damage.
Here are the two paragraphs in their entirety:
"Swarm Traits: A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or less causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells."
Saldiven wrote: j b 200 wrote: OP: Yes, because it targets a specific number of individuals instead of the swarm in it's entirety. Debatable. The paragraph discussing targeting a specific number of individuals is in regards to "spells or effects." The previous paragraph discusses weapon damage.
Here are the two paragraphs in their entirety:
"Swarm Traits: A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or less causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells." Well that second paragraph goes on to talk about more than just spells, including splash weapons. I'd say it validates his point, more than debates it.
However personally I would allow a flaming weapon (or cold acid etc) to be treated like a torch in respects to damaging a swarm. I would not modify it by 50% however, nor would I include base weapon damage. Still 1d6 is better than nothing.
Really it never hurts to carry a few flasks around for just these reasons.
Cavall wrote: However personally I would allow a flaming weapon (or cold acid etc) to be treated like a torch in respects to damaging a swarm. And what does a torch do to a swarm?
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Matthew Downie wrote: Cavall wrote: However personally I would allow a flaming weapon (or cold acid etc) to be treated like a torch in respects to damaging a swarm. And what does a torch do to a swarm? RAW = Nothing as it is an effect that targets a specific number of creatures (i.e. 1)
If memory serves, 3.5 had a rule somewhere explicitly allowing the energy damage from a flaming (or equivalent) weapon to damage a swarm, but that rule was not adopted by Pathfinder.
Matthew Downie wrote: Cavall wrote: However personally I would allow a flaming weapon (or cold acid etc) to be treated like a torch in respects to damaging a swarm. And what does a torch do to a swarm? Well according to heart of the jungle you could use one per square of a swarm and disperse it.
I believe that only applies to 'hazard' swarms and not to standard swarms.
A torch vs swarm is a classic fantasy trope. And it's only 1 damage, there's no reason to disallow it.
The same reasoning applies to flaming weapons. Let the fighter do something besides ask his wizard buddy to help.
I support that... as a house-rule.
Kobold Cleaver wrote: Ba-dum ba-dum.
Dum ba-dum barrum-dum.
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Barrum.
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Dum ba-dum barrum-dum.
Ba-da-bum.
Barrum.
Ba dum dum.
Is there any chance you are going to put those into an index?
It will need a catchy name, though. Since this is mostly a problem for martial types, why not call it Swarm/Martial Disparity. S/MD for short.
Yes? No? Go away?
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Paulicus wrote: A torch vs swarm is a classic fantasy trope. And it's only 1 damage, there's no reason to disallow it.
The same reasoning applies to flaming weapons. Let the fighter do something besides ask his wizard buddy to help.
I agree this is a reasonable position to take for a house rule, but RAW it doesn't work. Also the fighter should carry a few alchemist fires/acid flasks/etc.
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