I've been working on building a Bloodrager, and with my limited Rage Powers that I can get, I'm wondering how useful some of these really well-known powers are. Specifically, I'm wondering about CAGM, Superstition, and the Beast Totem chain (as they relate to my character).
My character is going to be a typical beat stick, but I wanted him to be able to survive, and not just do insane amount of damage and gamble away the AC. To that end, I put a lot of effort into buffing his saves, AC, and HP. I don't put much stock into DR, just a personal preference. Here's what I got so far:
** spoiler omitted **...
Well, CAGM is great. However, it shines the most when you are pumping your DR and not prioritizing AC. I suppose you could push your AC high enough to where even with -4 you still feel safe, but the idea is you kill the enemy before it can kill you. It depends what you are fighting, but you seem to like having really high AC.
Superstition is solid, but significantly better on a Barbarian whose Favored Class bonus can push it's bonuses higher.
Pounce is amazing, especially if you already like the natural armor... But those claws won't do much for you. Sort of seems worth it though.
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I personally Like to play a Half-orc Primalist Spelleater Arcane bloodrager.
I don't put stock in AC and love the 8th level power to add Displacement or Haste when you enter a rage. 50% miss chance is very fun. I trade out DR for Fast healing which I spike higher with Faster Healer trait because Spelleater's Fast healing is SU and not EX thus I get to add half my con to my fast healing amount.
You can't have cornugon smash at level 5 as you need 6 ranks in intimidate, you should take hurtful at lvl 5and cornugon smash at lvl 7.
He might be building Level 13 to start and Like they do in PFS with a level 2 rework....he can take any feat he qualifies for as a level 13 character. In PFS a Magus would rework to get Dervish Dance at 2.
Note 1: I also thought it might be good to get Improved Familiar. Is there anything on the list that's worth it? Or is hedgehog good enough?
Were is the Familiar coming from?
As for the original question of the rage powers:
CaGM- This Increases your damage and killing the threat faster. The only way to not take damage is to get the enemy to the dead condition. This accomplishes your goals.
Supersition + Witch Hunter- This combo works as most enemies above level 7 will have some sort of Spells, SLA, and SU abilities. Surviving those abilities and killing them quickly is your goal.
Beast Totem Line- This line is good but I feel as a bloodrager a 3 Rage power line is just too much. Bonus Natural armor and Pounce are very good and a very strong Option. Claws are not bad either when grappled or using a reach weapon.
Other good contenders: Spell Sunder, Eater of Magic, and Improved damage reduction.
1 (4/day): Enlarge Person, Thunderstomp, ???, ???, ???, ???, Shield (bonus)
2 (3/day): Mirror Image, Ablative Barrier, See Invisibility, Spider Climb, ???, Blur (bonus)
3 (1/day): Greater Magic Weapon, Fly, Channel Vigor (includes Haste), ???
4 (1/day): ???, ???
1 (4/day): Enlarge Person, Thunderstomp, Long Arm, Feather Fall (this saves lives), Protection from Evil (you being dominated is bad), Windy Escape (Immediate action negate a critical), Shield (bonus)
2 (3/day): Ablative Barrier (Pair this with a wand of Infernal Healing), See Invisibility, Spider Climb, Resist Energy, Flaming Sphere (Swarms are rare but this can help not be useless against them), Blur (bonus..you don't need mirror image with blur for free.)3 (1/day): Greater Magic Weapon, Undead Anatomy I (Flight, Climb speed, Swim Speed, dark vision...More utility than straight Fly) , Channel Vigor (includes Haste), Vampiric Touch (add spell storing to your armor or Weapon and store this spell on off days to get more spells a day as well as better action economy)
4 (1/day): Enervation or Stone Skin, Monstrous Physique (Flight, Swim speed, Size alteration, Sound Mimicry, Mimicry, Freeze, Pounce...need more reasons?)
Feat wise:
Raging Brutality should be your Level 13 feat.
I'm a fan of Improved Critical. A 15-20 Critical rating is a Critical roughly every 3 attacks. I would switch from a Greatsword to a Falchion. Make it a +1 Furious Spell-storing Weapon. On non-adventure days fill it up with Vampiric touch. It can save your life or really spike your damage higher on a serious threat. Very good combo when using Come and Get me.
Arcane does seem great with Primalist. 4th and 8th are amazing abilities, but 12th is much more niche. It also can get synergy from natural weapons because eventually it can transform.
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Can someone explain the benefits of DR vs AC? I read over and over about builds that rely on DR, and how useless AC is at high level, and I feel like I'm missing something. The average first attack for a CR 14 monster is at +24, and for CR 16 it's +27, which makes me think an AC of 41 (or 45 if using Shield) is great. Against NPCs, I assume the attacks are around +30 to +35 if they're Fighter types that put a lot of effort into bumping attacks. Even this build only gets +26, or +30 if not using Power Attack, so for a similar build that's roughly 50% chance, or 25% chance if I use Shield.
In higher levels the Idea of Layered defense keeps you alive longer. Having a High Ac makes you unhittable and means that the DM who is playing smart enemies will just ignore you because they can not damage you. AC is good...its not terrible but it should be used more in the later game to stop the Iterative attacks. If you get hit with their first attack they will likely think they can stand there and fight you instead of them rolling a 17 and still missing. Using DR will lessen the hit and your big HP pool will soak it up.
The second argument for layered defenses is for Creatures that have nasty special abilities like Grab or that attack your touch AC.
Statistically Having a AC of 35 + miss chance + Immunity to Evil possession + DR + Temporary Hitpoints + Good Saves + Critical Negation + Energy Resistance + Fast Healing + Ext Ext. will pay off more than having a AC of 42 and Good Saves.
Having Layered defenses also has you prepared for many different things the DM can throw at you. He might not be able to hit you but he can still sling spells, SLA, SU at you. At least with Blur/displacement you have a chance of being missed with ranged touch attacks. With Resist energy and/or Fast healing Breath weapons have much less impact on you when you beat the save and take half. (Which usually means you take 0-10 damage...which is laughable when you have like 150+ HP.)
AC is good and could be enough to help you survive. But being hittable with the first attack will keep people attacking you as opposed to trying to by-pass you.
As for DR over AC. for a Barbarian that has no magical aid like a bloodrager does it is incredible. It shaves off damage of every attack. The goal then is to kill it before it can kill you. To make Come and Get me work the enemy has to be sure it can hit you. And in Reality he IS gonna hit you...but with big DR and Big HP you should be able to weather the beating and come out alive.
Well, CAGM is great. However, it shines the most when you are pumping your DR and not prioritizing AC. I suppose you could push your AC high enough to where even with -4 you still feel safe, but the idea is you kill the enemy before it can kill you. It depends what you are fighting, but you seem to like having really high AC.Can someone explain the benefits of DR vs AC? I read over and over about builds that rely on DR, and how useless AC is at high level, and I feel like I'm missing something. The average first attack for a CR 14 monster is at +24, and for CR 16 it's +27, which makes me think an AC of 41 (or 45 if using Shield) is great. Against NPCs, I assume the attacks are around +30 to +35 if they're Fighter types that put a lot of effort into bumping attacks. Even this build only gets +26, or +30 if not using Power Attack, so for a similar build that's roughly 50% chance, or 25% chance if I use Shield.
If I was relying on DR, I'd have around, say DR 5/--, and presumably a lot more hits would land.
CAGM will give me AoOs regardless of whether the enemy's attack hits me, so, what am I missing here?
I don't put stock in AC and love the 8th level power to add Displacement or Haste when you enter a rage. 50% miss chance is very fun.I understand relying on Displacement for AC, which I think is a great alternative if I went Arcane bloodline. I think Mirror Image is a good enough middle ground given what I thought is a high AC. Can you explain your reason for not putting much stock in AC?
I will look into going Arcane instead though.
Well,there are a few issues with AC. One, an enemy who realizes your AC is too high is going to begin attacking your softer allies. This is bad, especially when your character probably has the highest HP pool in the party.
Two,your AC being super high can be quite frustrating for your DM. They may respond by simply escalating the accuracy of enemies to match you.
Three, there are things which won't target AC to begin with. Greater Sunder tactics, combat maneuvers, and saving throws namely. That last one becomes more and more common as you level up.
Four, secondary miss chances, like Displacement, become much more relevant.
AC tends to be something you priotize a lot, aiming for untouchability, or something you don't sweat. Often Barbarians and Bloodragers fall into the latter, because they don't use heavy armor or shields and take penalties to AC. they also have the hit dice and DR to make that OK. Destined and Arcane bloodlines are exceptions to that rule, but note that you won't be able to pre-buff before every fight and a round you cast shield or mirror image is a round you aren't killing the enemy.
Finally, the cool thing about DR is it is one of the only lines of defenses that doesn't care about dice rolls. You still get it if the enemy nat 20s you, or you flub a saving throw. It's great for being mobbed by low damage strikes, whether from one enemy with tons of natural attacks or lots of weak enemies. But it still does something if that enemy has +50 to attack.
Your AC is very high (you can barely hit yourself after all), so you can easily afford the -4 for CaGM.
Thanks for the very informative responses! Makes a lot more sense to me now. I don't think I gave up much for my high AC, and I can always not use Shield, plus trigger CAGM to allow certain enemies to bypass my AC if their first attack is too low. I feel like this is actually a good argument for taking CAGM, so I'll probably stick with that.
Also, I think my saves are very high, so I definitely didn't neglect that. Bloodragers also can do a swift level 1 or level 2 spell at the beginning of a bloodrage, which is when I intend to use Shield or Mirror Image or Blur, so it's not as if I neglected those aspects.
I do like Displacement a lot, and would consider dropping Destined for Arcane, but at most I can maybe cast it twice a day, so I'm not convinced it's worth getting.
Maybe I'm overlooking something, but how does the Bloodrager swift cast? First I've heard of that.
Also, Displacement doesn't need to be cast if you have the Arcane bloodline, you get it automatically whenever you rage.
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Thanks for the very informative responses! Makes a lot more sense to me now. I don't think I gave up much for my high AC, and I can always not use Shield, plus trigger CAGM to allow certain enemies to bypass my AC if their first attack is too low. I feel like this is actually a good argument for taking CAGM, so I'll probably stick with that.
Also, I think my saves are very high, so I definitely didn't neglect that. Bloodragers also can do a swift level 1 or level 2 spell at the beginning of a bloodrage, which is when I intend to use Shield or Mirror Image or Blur, so it's not as if I neglected those aspects.
I do like Displacement a lot, and would consider dropping Destined for Arcane, but at most I can maybe cast it twice a day, so I'm not convinced it's worth getting.
First if you use the Free action to cast a self spell on yourself it's duration is greatly reduced. I have almost never needed to use that ability because I am good at pre-buffing before anticipated battles. So you could be taking Mins/level buff and making it last only rounds. Means your diminished spell casting just got even more diminished.
Second...what makes Arcane so good is Displacement and Haste are just added to your rage. Means no spell or resource is wasted other than rounds of rage. It is also the equivalent of casting a 3rd level spell as a Free action. Action economy at its finest. I choose Displacement most the time unless I'm fighting something that has Blind-fight or Blindsight. Then I choose Haste when I rage. But in no way do you have to "cast" it. By 8th level you have roughly 20 or so rounds of rage...which means you have 20 rounds of Displacement or Haste.
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Thanks for the very informative responses! Makes a lot more sense to me now. I don't think I gave up much for my high AC, and I can always not use Shield, plus trigger CAGM to allow certain enemies to bypass my AC if their first attack is too low. I feel like this is actually a good argument for taking CAGM, so I'll probably stick with that.
Also, I think my saves are very high, so I definitely didn't neglect that. Bloodragers also can do a swift level 1 or level 2 spell at the beginning of a bloodrage, which is when I intend to use Shield or Mirror Image or Blur, so it's not as if I neglected those aspects.
I do like Displacement a lot, and would consider dropping Destined for Arcane, but at most I can maybe cast it twice a day, so I'm not convinced it's worth getting.
Maybe I'm overlooking something, but how does the Bloodrager swift cast? First I've heard of that.
Also, Displacement doesn't need to be cast if you have the Arcane bloodline, you get it automatically whenever you rage.
You Ninja...
To answer your question tho.
At 11th level, when a bloodrager enters a bloodrage, the morale bonus to his Strength and Constitution increases to +6 and the morale bonus on his Will saves increases to +3. In addition, upon entering a bloodrage, the bloodrager can apply the effects a bloodrager spell he knows of 2nd level or lower to himself. The spell must have a range of touch or personal. If the spell's duration is greater than 1 round, it instead lasts for the duration of the bloodrage. This use consumes a bloodrager spell slot, as if he had cast the spell; he must have the spell slot available to take advantage of this effect.
Wow, that's awesome.
I'm still confused about how he has a familiar.
Bloodline familiar? Something from the familiar folio I think.
Bloodline familiar? Something from the familiar folio I think.
Yes, that makes sense. Thanks. :)