Inspired by the threads "One class party, a thought experiment" and "Thought Experiment, Single Class Campaign", but relaxing the restrictions a bit:
What classes would be good to have more than one of in the same party (without necessarily composing the whole party of that class)?
My thoughts:
Core Classes
Barbarian (pre-Unchained or Unchained): Needs more study, but reportedly certain Teamwork feats on Half-Orc or Orc Barbarian can make a really scary duo. Some other dual Barbarian combinations may also exist.
Bard: Vanilla Bard won't work so well (because the buffs won't stack, although having more total rounds of Bardic performance is welcome if you have really long adventuring days), but Bard archetypes are so varied that you can cover all sorts of stuff, and even have a whole band of adventurers (should work well for most of Council of Thieves, and maybe for Hell's Rebels, and be thematically fitting). Of course, you can also cover for each other's missing spells.
Cleric: Should work, and don't even need to pick different archetypes, due to versatility of spell list (although a subset of the archetypes actually are decent). Channeling one at a time is just nice, but Channel Bombing with multiple Clerics at a time is better, since each one affects every valid enemy (usually Undead) within range with damage and possible rider debuffs or every other party member (unless of the wrong Energy Affinity) with healing and possible rider buffs or un-debuffs.
Druid: Like Cleric, but with more options to concentrate on in build, so can even fit different primary roles in the Forge of Combat.
Fighter: At first glance doesn't seem exceptional, but has more feats than anything else and a HUGE number of archetypes, so should be able to make something good and have feats left over for Teamwork, to make things like Shield Walls (although for some things like this you probably want more than just two, although in ordinary sized parties this runs the risk of having two manny hammers and not leaving room for arms and hammers, so the remaining party member(s) will have to build to be VERY versatile and REALLY optimize their action economy).
Monk (pre-Unchained, and count Unchained as an alternate class of this): Like Bard although with a more reasonable number of archetypes, but of course more martial-focused (but you can still get party buffing out of one of the archetypes). (Unfortunately, only one archetype is reported for Unchained Monk, and it appears not to be online yet.)
Paladin (or Antipaladin for murderohobo parties): Great if you are often up against a lot of Smitable opponents; poor if not. At least you can cover for each other's limited spells per day, or one could choose an archetype that trades out spells (although the spells aren't bad).
Ranger: This is probably not so great -- you have a choice between choosing different Favored Enemy and Terrain to cover for each other's lacks, but never being up to full power until you get high enough level to cast Instant Enemy, or making the same choices but then both being fish out of water when the situation is wrong. At least you can cover for each other's limited spells per day, or one could choose an archetype that trades out spells (although the spells aren't bad).
Rogue (and Ninja): This class isn't very powerful, but two of them with Teamwork Feats AND the players actually using teamwork should be able to set up Sneak Attack quite well, and do a lot of damage.
Sorcerer and Wizard: The upside: Two of them can cover for each other's limited spell selection (Sorcerer) or Opposition Schools (Wizard), and build for different roles, even without needing different archetypes. The downside: This makes two party members rather squishy unless they invest a lot in defense.
Base Classes (pre-ACG)
Alchemist: Even without archetypes, you can build for a self-buffing melee monster (Jekyll and Hyde) or a battlefield-controlling Mad Bomber, so you can cover different roles in the Forge of Combat.
Cavalier/Samurai: If you are going to have open charge lanes a lot of the time, this could be good for sheer damage. If not, archetypes let you branch out roles, although it won't be ideal. With the Tactician ability, you really want to be the one leading a squad of Fighters, rather than being one of a squad yourself, although having mutiple Cavaliers does mitigate the risk of running out of uses of Tactician, while multiple Challenge does boost damage output more reliably than multiple Smites.
Gunslinger: Like Fighter, but with a LOT less archetypes to provide variety, and less defensive capability. Still, you might be able to follow the advice given for Fighter (a lot harder due to much fewer feats), and the remaining party member(s) would have to follow the same advice as for those accompanying a Fighter team. If you could pull this off, you could make a SWAT team.
Inquisitor: This class seems like it wasn't really made to work in multiple, but with coordinated choice of Teamwork Feats, it ought to be possible to pull it off fairly well anyway, and different Inquisitors should be able to cover for each other's limited spell selection.
Magus: Like Gunslinger, but with choices of spells and Arcana, as well as Arcane Pool-based Weapon Enchantments to make up for the smaller number of archetypes. Most of the archetypes are really meant for melee only, but you might have Eldritch Archer for ranged combat, although messages on these boards make it sound like this archetype will be frequently banned. If it is, Myrmidarch offers some ranged capability, although this seems really meant for switch-hitting rather than heavy investment in ranged tactics, and Myrmidarch will take a long time to get really online; Card Caster also offers some short-ranged capability that probably works better than that of Myrmidarch, as long as you are within its short range; Hexcrafter offers Witch Hexes, of which many are (again short) ranged.
Oracle: This should be one of the supreme choices for having in multiple -- the sheer variety of Curses, Mysteries, and Revelations within each Mystery let you build characters for all sorts of roles within the Forge of Combat, even without archetypes -- and some of the archetypes add significantly to this as well.
Summoner (including Unchained): The sheer variety of capabilities of summoned creatures just about guarantees that once you get past the low levels, you will be able to fill in holes in each other's and the whole party's capabilities, and the Eidolons aren't bad either (especially pre-Unchained). The biggest downside in non-PbP/non-PbEM play will be managing all those extra creatures.
Witch: Like Sorcerer and Wizard (including the squishiness problem), but Hexes give you staying power (and you can cover for each other's missing Hexes to a certain extent, as well as for limited spells per day). Still, for just two Witches, this is probably not so great; this would really start to shine if you went hog-wild and made the whole party (or at least a large fraction of a large party) be Witches, because then each Witch can affect every opponent with an offensive Hex, and each Witch can affect each other Witch with a beneficial Hex to patch the party back up afterwards. Short of that, to alleviate the squishiness problem and get some more conventional offensive power, see Hexcrafter Magus above.
Hybrid Classes (pre-Occult)
Arcanist: Like Sorcerer and Wizard, but with fewer spells per day, but on the other hand more flexibility.
Bloodrager: Needs more study, but probably works like Barbarian, except now you also have limited sets of spells known, which you can choose differently to cover for each other.
Brawler: Needs more study, but probably like Fighter. Hint: Coordinate use of Martial Flexibility to take the Teamwork Feats that you need at the moment -- actually could probably be pretty good.
Hunter: Sort of the best of Inquisitor and Ranger, in a way -- built for working out in the wild, with full-progression Animal Companions, and free Teamwork Feats that you can use with your Animal Companions, BUT if you coordinate, you can also use them with each other. You are spontaneous spellcasters, so coordinate to cover for each other's missing spells.
Investigator: Like Inquisitor, Investigator seems to have been not meant to work in multiple, but unlike Inquisitor, you don't get several bonus Teamwork Feats that you can coordinate to make it work anyway. Between extract selection and the available archetypes, it should be possible to make this okay, but it won't be optimal.
Shaman: Needs more study, but this will probably turn out to be excellent like Oracle (see above), except probably trickier to build right (for one thing, the spell list is by default much more limited, and takes some finagling to expand it back up to what you want).
Skald: Like Bard + Barbarian, but with fewer archetypes available to branch out your roles (and for the most part they don't alter Raging Song, although again, more total rounds of Raging Song are welcome if you have really long adventuring days), and you do have Rage Powers to choose from. Of course, you can also cover for each other's missing spells.
Slayer: See Rogue/Ninja above.
Swashbuckler: See Fighter above.
Warpriest: Like a combination of Cleric and Magus, but you actually get more Bonus Combat Feats than either, thus letting you build for Teamwork like a Fighter, while scaling Sacred Weapon damage lets you Hammer opponents to death faster like a group of Monks, Rogues, Ninjas, or Slayers, while you can actually use the Cleric spells thereafter to patch each other back up afterwards. Actually, this should be pretty good. Again, Channel Bombing is also good (see Cleric above), although you don't get as much of it as a Cleric.
Occult Classes (pre-Intrigue)
Kineticist: Needs more study, but choosing different Elements should allow you to cover for each other's weaknesses. Also, having two ranged combatants that never run out of at least their lighter ammunition will help the party's staying power, relative to having just one.
Medium: Needs more study, but since it looks like Influence will build up awfully fast, you can give each other a break. On the other hand, I'm not convinced that the Medium's abilities are all that great to start with, so having two of them may not be such a great thing, unless you are in a situation where the Mediums actually have access to favored locations for different Spirits to let them fill in different holes in the party's capabilities.
Mesmerist: This class seems very powerful even in single, being both a decent combatant and an excellent debuffer. Need more study of how much their debuffs can stack, but debuffing and whacking multiple moderately tough opponents simultaneously sounds pretty good.
Occultist: Needs more study, but since you have limited implements until high levels, having more of you means getting more of these online sooner.
Psychic: Like Sorcerer, but with a more limited selection of spells (although you get some for patching up the party that Sorcerers can't get). Since you have some area of affect defensive spells, but these are of short duration, you will burn through them fast even with your generous allotment of spells per day, so having two of you will help with this (although that partially interferes with the concept of covering for each other's missing spells). You are probably too squishy to do a good job of all roles in the Forge of Combat (you won't be able to Gish very well), so keep that in mind.
Spiritualist: Needs more study (this class doesn't even have a guide for it yet, making it the exception for the Paizo classes released to date). The Spiritualist appears to be sort of a Summoner without the Summon Monster ability and without the level-down-bumped Summon Monster spells of the Summoner spell list, and thus much more dependent on the Phantom (quasi-Eidolon), but with a decent selection of Cleric/Oracle spells on the spell list instead, thus enabling decent ability to patch the party back up, athough some of this capability is substantially delayed relative to Cleric/Oracle/Shaman (or even Summoner, for those subsets that can be had on summoned monsters), so having two of these isn't necessarily terrible, but probably won't be great either.
Witches can share spells with each other through their familiars at no cost.
The Spellcraft check is only DC 15 + Spell Level, and you'll be doing this during downtime, so you can take 10. 1 rank + 3 Class Skill bonus + 4 Int bonus + take 10 = 18. No way to fail, even with a lower Int.
This gives a multi-Witch party a truckload of spells. You can also probably form a Coven, although I've never looked into it.
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Occultist have a absurd amount of diversity to the point you can easily have a balanced party using nothing but occultists, especially if you are including archetypes. They can heal,buff,do nukes, skill monkey and be a front line fighter.
Witches can share spells with each other through their familiars at no cost.
{. . .}
I thought of a Coven also, but good luck finding a Coven Anchor that isn't evil. Even the magic item that lets you do this without an actual evil member seems from the description that it isn't the kind of magic item that you would want in a good party.
Yes, spell exchange is good -- works for spellbook spellcasters (Magus, Wizard, etc.) As well as for Witches, although inscribing in spellbooks does cost something, and of these, only Hexcrafter Magus would get the Hexing synergy like Witches do.
Also forgot to mention that when you get up to enough Hexes, one of your Witches can be a White-Haired Witch, which can be a scary grappler if you can figure out a way around the bad CMB and CMD resulting from 1/2 BAB -- and the massive debuffs slathered on by the other Witches (and even the White-Haired Witch, by spellcasting) help with this, even against many types of Boss. This is before counting things like dipping 4 levels in White-Haired Witch and going Tetori Monk the rest of the way, or some other multiclass combination that has been reported on these boards (some of which even get online fast enough to use in PFS, even if they don't have the late level awesomeness). Of course, a White-Haired Witch doesn't have any Hexes with which to be a Coven member, unless dipped in Sorcerer with the Accursed Bloodline (gets equivalent of Coven Hex, but no actual Hexes) or dipped more levels than you would probably want in Hexcrafter Magus.
Kineticist is a fantastic class to have multiples of, and if Kinetic Healer wasn't so incredibly unfun you could definitely make a full party of just Kineticists. Fire/Air actually fulfills the role of the Wizard fairly well.
An all kinecticist party can sometimes do weird things to your expectations.
For example, at about level 12, almost all of them can travel faster than high way speed via ride the blast. Considering the fact that horses are the standard for speed in his game, I think that means you can move around the entire continent effortlessly.
A team of kineticists can also play a mean game of guerrilla warfare against entire armies due to that speed, as well as their various AoE options that can be blasted at long range.
Not really working with the system's style...but at least noteworthy.
^I have to say, apart from the unwieldy Burn mechanic, Kineticists look an awful lot like Superheroes to me. And you can certainly have more than one of those in a party.
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Sorcerer and Wizard: The upside: Two of them can cover for each other's limited spell selection (Sorcerer) or Opposition Schools (Wizard), and build for different roles, even without needing different archetypes. The downside: This makes two party members rather squishy unless they invest a lot in defense.
Multiple wizards are less squishy than you may imagine. They have to engage in better tactics (no full charging or wading through enemies anymore), but the shear number of spells plus the massive accumulation of scrolls really sets them above the bar.
A single wizard? Yeah - squishy can be an issue. You start stacking wizards together and the game changes.
Sorcerer and Wizard: The upside: Two of them can cover for each other's limited spell selection (Sorcerer) or Opposition Schools (Wizard), and build for different roles, even without needing different archetypes. The downside: This makes two party members rather squishy unless they invest a lot in defense.Multiple wizards are less squishy than you may imagine. They have to engage in better tactics (no full charging or wading through enemies anymore), but the shear number of spells plus the massive accumulation of scrolls really sets them above the bar.
A single wizard? Yeah - squishy can be an issue. You start stacking wizards together and the game changes.
Same applies to wizard + sorcerer, especially if one has really good luck with HP and goes the EK route. It can also result in serious crazy happening...like making a castle while you wait for whatever McGuffin told you to wait.
I have to disagree about the party of only inquisitors not working well. Inquisitors have more flexibility than any other class so while they may have a lot of the same abilities many of them can be altered to suit the circumstance. Bane for instance can work no matter what you are facing, and judgements are equally diverse. The ability to coordinate teamwork feats is going to be very powerful. A bunch of inquisitors with precise strike and bane are going to be rolling so many dice for damage it is not funny.
Inquisitors also get a lot of skills including stealth and other scouting skills. This means the whole party can partake in these activities. Chances are they will spot any encounter before it happens and be able to plan out what they want to do. A party of invisible high stealth characters can avoid almost any encounter they don’t want to have. And when they do decide to have the encounter it will be on their terms. Imagine a group of fully buffed inquisitors ambushing some poor helpless monster.
Really good HP isn't even difficult to come by, really. Dwarf Wizards are my favorite example, since I first started my idea for such a thing back in 3.5 with a Dwarf.
With even a modest 15 point buy, you can put a 14 into Con(for 16 total), add a +3 hp familiar, Toughness, and +1 hp from favored class for 11-14 hit points every level. Pick up someone and carry them too, while you're at. Because, you know, Slow and Steady.
^I have to say, apart from the unwieldy Burn mechanic, Kineticists look an awful lot like Superheroes to me. And you can certainly have more than one of those in a party.
It is only really 'unwieldy' early on, it the case you want to do something flashy.
With all the burn reducing mechanics that you get by high level, you can spam most combinations of infusions without any burn at all (and you can at least do all the blasts with just a single infusion altering them without any risk of burn).
And they make good villains at least. While they aren't exactly at wizard levels for teh short, intense battles that mark this system, they are uniquely suited to personally murdering entire armies for hours on end. So the fact that you can have an entire castle cleared out by a single character, and know for a fact that they accomplished this personally without a need to cheese it out, does have some gravitas.
I have to disagree about the party of only inquisitors not working well. Inquisitors have more flexibility than any other class so while they may have a lot of the same abilities many of them can be altered to suit the circumstance. Bane for instance can work no matter what you are facing, and judgements are equally diverse. The ability to coordinate teamwork feats is going to be very powerful. A bunch of inquisitors with precise strike and bane are going to be rolling so many dice for damage it is not funny.
Inquisitors also get a lot of skills including stealth and other scouting skills. This means the whole party can partake in these activities. Chances are they will spot any encounter before it happens and be able to plan out what they want to do. A party of invisible high stealth characters can avoid almost any encounter they don’t want to have. And when they do decide to have the encounter it will be on their terms. Imagine a group of fully buffed inquisitors ambushing some poor helpless monster.
Archetypes are also an important factor with the Inquisitor, since they get quite a few nice ones that really change things up, such as the Santified Slayer and Sacred Huntmaster.
Unchained Monks have archetypes. Monk of the Mantis and Serpent-Fire Adept.
Weird -- although the links you provided work, they aren't linked from the Unchained Monk pages on either www.d20pfsrd.com or Archives of Nethys -- instead, you have to go to the (non-Unchained) Monk Archetypes pages on each (and not the archetype table or list on the Monk page on www.d20pfsrd.com) to find them.
Unfortunately, none of the older archetypes have been converted to work with Unchained Monk, except that Unchained Monk can take Qinggong Ki Powers out of the box.
I have to disagree about the party of only inquisitors not working well. {. . .}
I phrased their entry badly -- what I should have said is that the Solo Tactics class feature makes Inquisitors look like they weren't meant to work in multiple, but they can actually pull it off pretty well with builds coordinated to cooperate on Teamwork Feats (and remember you get a each flexible Teamwork Feat and then solidify it later when you get another one) and cover for each other's limited spells known. And archetypes do have potential to make a big difference (needs more study, but for starters, Monster Tactician gets you a semi-Summoner; Sacred Huntsmaster gets you a semi-Hunter; and Sanctified Slayer gets you a semi-Slayer; still, I wish Inquisitor had an archetype that replaced Solo Tactics with Cavalier-style Tactician).
* * * * * * * *
I didn't put color or numerical ratings on any of the classes, but if I were going to do that, I wouldn't give any of them a rating worse than Orange.
Unchained Monks have archetypes. Monk of the Mantis and Serpent-Fire Adept.Weird -- although the links you provided work, they aren't linked from the Unchained Monk pages on either www.d20pfsrd.com or Archives of Nethys -- instead, you have to go to the (non-Unchained) Monk Archetypes pages on each (and not the archetype table or list on the Monk page on www.d20pfsrd.com) to find them.
Unfortunately, none of the older archetypes have been converted to work with Unchained Monk, except that Unchained Monk can take Qinggong Ki Powers out of the box.
Yeah, the loss of archetypes like the Sohei, Sensei, Zen Archer, and others really hurts the diversity of the Unchained Monk compared to the classic version.
IIRC Seifer said that a medium can create an appropriate situation in order to channel any spirit regardless of the location.
In that case given the variety of spirits you could make a party of Mediums without even varying archetypes
I'm a big fan of alchemist parties. Almost anything can be achieved using temp buffs, and bombs are fun. You also get many more recipes when you level up.
Oracles all the way. Different revelations practically create different classes. Take Skill at Arms, for example, from the battle mystery. From that alone, an oracle is proficient with all martial weapons and heavy armor. Other mysteries create offensive spellcasters, while some make great healers.
Monster tactician is almost summoner+. It can summon more kinds by default and make them more powerful through teamwork feats.
IIRC Seifer said that a medium can create an appropriate situation in order to channel any spirit regardless of the location.
In that case given the variety of spirits you could make a party of Mediums without even varying archetypes
Do you have a link to this?
Do you have a link to this?IIRC Seifer said that a medium can create an appropriate situation in order to channel any spirit regardless of the location.
In that case given the variety of spirits you could make a party of Mediums without even varying archetypes
I misremembered, it's actually an official FAQ
Witches can share spells with each other through their familiars at no cost.
{. . .}I thought of a Coven also, but good luck finding a Coven Anchor that isn't evil.
Actually carefully reading the coven hex you would find a party of witches each with the coven hex are very powerful. And nearly OP if they actually form a coven!!!!
When you get down to actual Covens, those really need to be reworked. As is, they don't scale, and are pretty much always the same except for making certain substitutions in spell-like abilities for having certain types of members. That said, without forming an actual Coven, the Aid Another bonus is nice, although it only starts to get really good with more than 2 Witches (or Sorcerers with the Accursed Bloodline), and then does so at the cost of action economy (although if you all have some kind of Reach Weapon(*), Combat Reflexes, and decent Dexterity, this isn't so bad).
(*)Preferably Elven Branched Spears, for +2 on Attacks of Opportunity (to make up for 1/2 BAB into the mid levels).
Witches can share spells with each other through their familiars at no cost.
{. . .}I thought of a Coven also, but good luck finding a Coven Anchor that isn't evil.
Actually carefully reading the coven hex you would find a party of witches each with the coven hex are very powerful. And nearly OP if they actually form a coven!!!!
You need an actual hag to have a coven. Even (and especially) with very careful reading of the coven hex.
The witch counts as a hag for the purpose of joining a hag’s coven. The coven must contain at least one hag.
The first line counting the witch as a hag for the purpose of joining a coven will not qualify them for the second line that the coven must contain at least one hag.
Pretty sure this works for all the full casters and all of two thirds casters.
I believe KenderKin is referring to the separate ability for witches with the Coven hex to increase one another's caster level even without actually forming a coven.
Which as I noted above, I don't think is unbalanced, because it eats action economy (uness multiple Witches in the Coven have Swift Action things they can do, which is its own action economy tax, or you have a bunch of minion Witches that can't do too much effective otherwise, in which case they will be REALLY squishy).
And as for the coven itself, let's not forget that there's a magic item for that.
I saw that, but even though the item description doesn't technically list it as being Evil, it sure seems that way.
I believe KenderKin is referring to the separate ability for witches with the Coven hex to increase one another's caster level even without actually forming a coven.Which as I noted above, I don't think is unbalanced, because it eats action economy (uness multiple Witches in the Coven have Swift Action things they can do, which is its own action economy tax, or you have a bunch of minion Witches that can't do too much effective otherwise, in which case they will be REALLY squishy).
It is unbalanced. Caster level of 1434372.
^Looks like Coven wasn't even selected for the original example, and when it was later added, it would be a minority of the total caster level boost. Sure, if you have to break through one thing that is REALLY hard to crack (and doesn't just have outright Immunity to whatever you are trying to do), AND don't have to deal with a bunch of their minions at the same time, AND you have a bunch of minion Witches, then it could be really good. Outside of those situations, nice but not so overwhelming.