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Played my second organized pathfinder core game and walked out because of demeaning and ridicule from veteran players.
Before you chase off your next new player because they dont fit perfectly in your experienced scheme off pathfinder reality, remember the following.
Please,
1) Help new players.
2) Have the new player experience FUN, not frustration because they dont know alllll the rules.
3) Dont be cynical and tell new players what they can and cannot do, let the GM do that.
4) Please dont say..."I would recommend new players to NEVER start with spellcasters", in front of everyone, and at the end of the game. Real barn burner that one.
5)New people may think outside the box, so give them at least some consideration of style play, and not box them in preconceived notions of rule and opinions. This is a game of imagination if i remember correctly.
6) Dont let a new player be the only person in the group not being healed, because the veterans dont like you. Rude.
7) The game should be FUN! Its us against the monsters, not veterans against new people.
Sorry for my rant, but please remember you were new once also. We new people dont know all the rules, dont know the specifics of spells, dont know combat sequences down to the detail, and etc. We came to your group to have FUN.
Thank you and Merry Christmas.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Sorry to hear you had a lousy time. Most of the experienced rules gurus around here are pretty helpful really (even if they don't always remember how tough it is as a newcomer). I hope you give it another go with a different group and get a better reception.

The game is great, the campaign world is terrific, the community is (usually) helpful and the company is awesome. Fingers crossed you get to enjoy that side of things rather than the jaded, opinionated few. :/


Baconology, you are absolutely right: the most important part of the game is having fun. And if other players are crushing the fun of a new player, then it is the other players that are the problem and they need to learn how to play.

I hope you are able to give it another try with people that actually take joy in sharing our hobby with new players. Good luck!


Baconator,

So obviously that stinks. I've played organized events and got a lot of help making and tweaking my first character, so I can't say I had the exact same experience. I did however empathize with #5. I too wanted to "think outside the box." Unfortunately that one we both learned the hard way that there's not much wiggle room there.

Organized play has to follow a certain track to make it inclusive enough for everyone. I'm not trying to defend anyone's actions at your experience, just saying that on that one point it might've just been that outside home games things have to be very strict to the rules.

Please do give it another go, oh knower of the science of Kevin Bacon. This is a fun game but it can be really daunting in reality to play. Add in challenging personalities and frustration is inevitable.

Maybe think about playing a game here on the boards. It's not the same as live but you'll get the benefit of the combined wisdom and rules knowledge of the community at large. Also if you just want to tool around with builds, get a handle on some of the trickier rules or just chat this is a very positive forum as those things go.

Who knows hamhock; maybe you run into some players in your area online and a home game grows from there?


Baconology wrote:

Played my second organized pathfinder core game and walked out because of demeaning and ridicule from veteran players.

Before you chase off your next new player because they dont fit perfectly in your experienced scheme off pathfinder reality, remember the following.
Please,
1) Help new players.
2) Have the new player experience FUN, not frustration because they dont know alllll the rules.
3) Dont be cynical and tell new players what they can and cannot do, let the GM do that.
4) Please dont say..."I would recommend new players to NEVER start with spellcasters", in front of everyone, and at the end of the game. Real barn burner that one.
5)New people may think outside the box, so give them at least some consideration of style play, and not box them in preconceived notions of rule and opinions. This is a game of imagination if i remember correctly.
6) Dont let a new player be the only person in the group not being healed, because the veterans dont like you. Rude.
7) The game should be FUN! Its us against the monsters, not veterans against new people.
Sorry for my rant, but please remember you were new once also. We new people dont know all the rules, dont know the specifics of spells, dont know combat sequences down to the detail, and etc. We came to your group to have FUN.
Thank you and Merry Christmas.

It sounds like you've run into the dark seedy underbelly of the RPG world - the self-centered gamer. They're everywhere and come from all walks of life. There's not much you can do when you run into them at a game other than try to make the best of it. Don't worry, there are plenty of other great players out there that will be more than happy to play with you without being a controlling self centered jerk the entire time.


Hi! I just bought the beginner box. I also bought the beastiary 1 book and box set along with the expansion pack for the individual Paladin and the individual for the sorcerer pack. All games were buy one get one half off, so I bought those four things. I'm a bit intimidated. I've played very few table top games. I have read and have a good understanding of Paladium's Heroes and Villains Unlimited, but have rarely played, as my friends don't understand how awesome these things can be.
I guess some of my questions would be, what forum do you use to find local players? What should my next purchase be? I've seen the online video and this will get me to level 5. I have a buddy who wants to play, but that's about it. I don't think the game will be as fun with one Game master and one level 1 cleric. I am simply stumped as to where to find more.
I hope to be active on this page, but I've also not really forumed a lot in my life. Thanks for listening, and I look forward to the responses!


I also fear that I've posted in the wrong area...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Generally, creating your own thread on a form will get you more views, rather than adding onto an existing thread. As you suspected, there's also a better forum section for this - Gamer Connection on this forum is designed to help people get together and play RPGs. You can either browse for people in your area who are looking or put out your own thread calling for folks.

Don't discount the power of old-fashioned ways of getting together, either. If you're at a college, see if there's a club dedicated to tabletop gaming, or post flyers to start assembling the group yourself. Ask at your local bookstore or game store to see if they have any groups. And ask more friends if they want to play!

Hope everything goes great for you!


CountVega wrote:
I also fear that I've posted in the wrong area...

Our local society games are all found on meetup.com. You might try that as well! Otherwise, ask at your local game stores, or email your local venture captain directly (their info can be found on the site somewhere).

Cheers,
-J

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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Starfinder Superscriber

I've seen some tables do pretty well with newbies. Andrew Hoskins is a great GM for newbies at the table; he'll work with them when they come up with "out of the box" ideas that us experienced gamers who know the rules too well don't think to do... and as they try things their character isn't optimized for.

But, yeah, you have to have a whole table willing to work with it.

5/5

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Baconolgy - sorry you had such a crappy experience. I've had a table or two like that myself, but I've also had hundreds of great tables, and met some really close friends through PFS. I hope you give PFS another try, perhaps at a different venue if one is available.

I also suggest that you take a look at the list of Venture-Officers and send your post above to the officer who oversees your region. If you know it, send it to your GM as well - they may not realize how you felt (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, since I wasn't there). Either way, they need to improve their behavior and/or control of the table to prevent future instances like this.


I work with Andrew Hoskins over at The Flying Pincushion, so I very much second how great of a dude he is, not a mean bone in that one, so yep, if you can get in a game with Andrew, do it!

Liberty's Edge 3/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

Juicetice wrote:
CountVega wrote:
I also fear that I've posted in the wrong area...
Our local society games are all found on meetup.com.

For my area we use Warhorn.com.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Back on topic, I too wish to offer my condolences that you had a less than enjoyable experience. When I joined the Society, I had a negative interaction with one of our area's more prolific GMs at the time. I didn't return to play PFS for 3 months or so, and wound up going to WinterFest in Pullman with my area's current VC. If I hadn't continued to show up and interact, I would have missed out on so much fun and so many new friends. Try again in a different setting or with a different group is the best advice I can offer you. Don't be afraid to talk to your local event organizer or Venture Officer.

Best of Luck

The Exchange

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I have a happier tale to tell I suppose :) I went to my first pfs game a little over a month ago, (at Lightspeed Hobbies in portage IN) and I took my sister who is in high school. I was looking for another game to play sense our home brewed dnd game fell through due to a player being a creep. the gm's took extra time to shuffle around everyone to create a level one table. We played the module we be goblins. and it was a ton of laughs and it was so much fun to just play. Everyone was super helpful with figuring out what we needed to do and it was such a great way to meet a bunch of new people totally loved it. the second game we played was confirmation where we played prejens cause we didn't get how to do feats and that, and once again everyone was super helpful. Then over the next 2 weeks poor Avram (http://paizo.com/people/AvramSuson) gave me his fb and he helped me and my sis build our characters he was so ready to answer any questions, and was so patient with our noobish ways. the latest session was last Thursday first thing he did was grab our sheets double checked to see we were ok. Then dm'ed giving pointers all the while on how to add up our new weapons and stuff. Then they sat down and explained how to level up and now were level two and super exited for the next meeting. :)


Since we are on the topic of helping newbies can some one please come over to my thread to help I really hope I'm not sounding mean or jerkish I actually really need help with one part my thread was named character build help or something along those lines. Please help I hope I don't sound like a jerk. It was not n beginners box of some one would help please again I hope I don't sound like a jerk saying this.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
WIIIIILLLLSSSSOOOONNN wrote:
Since we are on the topic of helping newbies can some one please come over to my thread to help I really hope I'm not sounding mean or jerkish I actually really need help with one part my thread was named character build help or something along those lines. Please help I hope I don't sound like a jerk. It was not n beginners box of some one would help please again I hope I don't sound like a jerk saying this.

For those looking for a link, here it is.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'm still a bit disappointed he wasn't a jerk, I had some really sarcastic snark I was ready to throw up.


captain yesterday wrote:
I'm still a bit disappointed he wasn't a jerk, I had some really sarcastic snark I was ready to throw up.

What?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Just joking around. :-)

Edit: honestly, I thought I was somewhere else.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

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Baconology wrote:

Sorry for my rant, but please remember you were new once also. We new people dont know all the rules, dont know the specifics of spells, dont know combat sequences down to the detail, and etc. We came to your group to have FUN.

Thank you and Merry Christmas.

Have you sent this rant to the people responsible, so that they know there is a problem and how they can improve?


captain yesterday wrote:

Just joking around. :-)

Edit: honestly, I thought I was somewhere else.

Ok just wanted to be sure that I hadn't sounded like a jerk.

Sovereign Court

TOZ wrote:


Have you sent this rant to the people responsible, so that they know there is a problem and how they can improve?

You're the responsible one. And I BLAME YOU!

1/5

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Baconology wrote:

Played my second organized pathfinder core game and walked out because of demeaning and ridicule from veteran players.

Before you chase off your next new player because they dont fit perfectly in your experienced scheme off pathfinder reality, remember the following.
Please,
1) Help new players.
2) Have the new player experience FUN, not frustration because they dont know alllll the rules.
3) Dont be cynical and tell new players what they can and cannot do, let the GM do that.
4) Please dont say..."I would recommend new players to NEVER start with spellcasters", in front of everyone, and at the end of the game. Real barn burner that one.
5)New people may think outside the box, so give them at least some consideration of style play, and not box them in preconceived notions of rule and opinions. This is a game of imagination if i remember correctly.
6) Dont let a new player be the only person in the group not being healed, because the veterans dont like you. Rude.
7) The game should be FUN! Its us against the monsters, not veterans against new people.
Sorry for my rant, but please remember you were new once also. We new people dont know all the rules, dont know the specifics of spells, dont know combat sequences down to the detail, and etc. We came to your group to have FUN.
Thank you and Merry Christmas.

1) Should be a given to help *all* players. Even the 40-50 year old veteran has been known to miss a thing or two from time to time. No one, and I'm comfortable stating *no one* has a perfect knowledge of the rules.

2) Fun is a relative thing. For some, it is hacking and slicing. For others, roleplay. For another segment? Problem-solving. There are blends in-between, but everyone at a table should be having fun playing. Otherwise, what's the point?

3) I would humbly suggest that a player encouraging a new perspective is refreshing to the community, and re-invigorates the whole. Failure to accept that is as much a failure as any mistake a new person could possibly make.

4) Been gaming for over thirty years. Spellcasters are my weak spot. But I'd never suggest someone not give it a shot. The first three scenarios of a given character's career are the time to experiment, play around with builds, get an idea for how things work, learn fundamentals.

5) See 3)

6) Did you ask for healing, or did you expect it? Some tables run on the 'If a player doesn't tell me their character's hurt, I don't heal them' philosophy, whereas others run on 'everyone must be topped off health-wise whenever possible'. It may be that you've run into a beast of the first ilk versus the second.

7) See 2)

I consider myself both new and veteran, young and old, experienced and complete noob. Every scenario I play, every post I make, every thing I encounter is a learning experience.

Please do consider 'another go' at things, but if you do not feel comfortable going back to that particular venue, that would be understandable.

May your holiday season bring peace and tranquilty.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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Baconology wrote:

Played my second organized pathfinder core game and walked out because of demeaning and ridicule from veteran players.

Before you chase off your next new player because they dont fit perfectly in your experienced scheme off pathfinder reality, remember the following.

I'm not trying to belittle your feelings, but please keep in mind that what you're asking for involves a large amount of subjectivity and people skills in a hobby justifiable notorious for lacking them.

Its paramount to realize that other people cannot make you feel anything at will. You might get angry. They may have done something to justifiably make you angry.. or they may not have.

Quote:
2) Have the new player experience FUN, not frustration because they dont know alllll the rules.

*drops 5 pound rulebook on the table with a thudd*

There is no way new guy is not going to experience some frustration at not being able to get through that, the guide to organized play, the core rules, the drivers manual, and the reams of meta rulings and gaming conventions that make the game playable without any degree of frustration, especially if they're trying to run from day one.

Quote:
3) Dont be cynical and tell new players what they can and cannot do, let the GM do that.

At the start of a scenario I'm going over the scenario one more time, trying to calculate the average party level, doing table seduko trying to get everyone at a table, in tier, and with the right party composition, scarf down a pizza so I'm not a killer DM, adjuticating some weird rules thingy someone wants to exploit use and learn what bizzar or made up subsystem this scenario makes fun of.

My brain is full.

Pawning new guy off to another player that dumped charisma the least hard is kind of standard operating procedure.

There's also a certain level of equality in some groups. The guy behind the screen may be the DM this week, but the guy telling you you can't do that playing at the table might a dm as well, an even more experienced dm than the guy behind the screen, the local rules guru or even a venture critter of some sort. Do not discount someone's imput just because of where their rear is in relationship to the screen.

Quote:
4) Please dont say..."I would recommend new players to NEVER start with spellcasters", in front of everyone, and at the end of the game. Real barn burner that one.

Take out the never then. Spellcasters are hell of complicated and have rules coming in from all over the book. Also unlike most of the table you can't skip first level with DM credit. That makes you squishy.

Its entirely possible that the other guy was reccommending the SOP of playing a barbarian or something through level 1, then switching it with the free rebuild to a wizard.

Quote:
5)New people may think outside the box, so give them at least some consideration of style play, and not box them in preconceived notions of rule and opinions. This is a game of imagination if i remember correctly.

This is questionable in a home game, depending on what you want to do. In a PFS game this is probably a non starter. Depending on what you want to do "outside of the box" may mean illegal, which the DM can't allow, and certainly can't allow you going from table to table breaking the rules.

6) Dont let a new player be the only person in the group not being healed, because the veterans dont like you. Rude.

Yeaaaah no excuse for that. No such thing as "missing only one hit point" on new guy.

Liberty's Edge Venture-Agent, Online

For #6 I wonder if they assumed you were aware of a sort of unwritten rule of PFS where you are expected to supply your own healing in the form of a wand if you want to be healed. There are a decent number of players that will balk at the idea of spending their own resources (whether spell slots or consumable items) on other player's characters out of combat.

1/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Michael Hallet wrote:
For #6 I wonder if they assumed you were aware of a sort of unwritten rule of PFS where you are expected to supply your own healing in the form of a wand if you want to be healed. There are a decent number of players that will balk at the idea of spending their own resources (whether spell slots or consumable items) on other player's characters out of combat.

I look at it personally as 'Is this person a mooch?' or 'Is this person new and doesn't have resources?' I could see a new player either not thinking of being able to purchase things of that sort. I didn't know I could when I started.

A new player before L2 I tend to give a bit of slack.

Between certain modules giving conditions that might need to be cleared and such, it's understandable that the 'priorities' for a new player may not be quite the same as someone who's played a bit. Plus, not everyone knows about the 'bring your own healing' courtesy, so that's a bit daunting and off-putting to new players.

I know it was to me when I had someone *insist* I buy a Wand of Cure Light after my first scenario by someone who had dumped Charisma IRL and my character didn't have UMD.

Why would I buy a piece of equipment I *couldn't* use? After there was some explanation after my *second* scenario did I pick up on that? Absolutely. EDIT: Saved our party in Stonelords, even, because of that.

Someone who's at L7 and hasn't even gotten a Wand of Cure Light or some potions? Especially someone who has a stable of at least a half-dozen characters? NO. By that point they should know better, and shouldn't be expecting me to fund their health care.

In that latter case, they're on their own, unless mission failure rides directly on them being healed up, but even then, I'll be very reluctant to cover a 'mooch'.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Michael Hallet wrote:
For #6 I wonder if they assumed you were aware of a sort of unwritten rule of PFS where you are expected to supply your own healing in the form of a wand if you want to be healed. There are a decent number of players that will balk at the idea of spending their own resources (whether spell slots or consumable items) on other player's characters out of combat.

Kinda not an option for newguy.

Liberty's Edge Venture-Agent, Online

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Michael Hallet wrote:
For #6 I wonder if they assumed you were aware of a sort of unwritten rule of PFS where you are expected to supply your own healing in the form of a wand if you want to be healed. There are a decent number of players that will balk at the idea of spending their own resources (whether spell slots or consumable items) on other player's characters out of combat.
Kinda not an option for newguy.

He did say it was his second event. To some people that may be sufficient for "not a new guy".

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Michael Hallet wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Michael Hallet wrote:
For #6 I wonder if they assumed you were aware of a sort of unwritten rule of PFS where you are expected to supply your own healing in the form of a wand if you want to be healed. There are a decent number of players that will balk at the idea of spending their own resources (whether spell slots or consumable items) on other player's characters out of combat.
Kinda not an option for newguy.
He did say it was his second event. To some people that may be sufficient for "not a new guy".

Unless, of course, his first event was one of the Free RPG Day modules that only give 1 PP....

I tend to give out healing,. but try to explain the philosophy of owning your own CLW wand to new players. Sometimes, your PC may be the only one at a table that isn't a totally new PC, or a first level pregen...


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I'm glad you guys are starting to make questioning posts. When I saw this thread start, I held back because I could see lots of reasons why the veterans would make things uncomfortable for a newbie -- and some of those reasons are so valid that I'd be like, "Stand your ground, don't take that back."

Healing is one of them.

The first time a player is at a game, we all chime in to tell that newbie about buying a wand of CLW with 2 prestige points. Some new players object to this. It's not how their home games go, and they want PFS to follow the home game style. They'll say, "The healer spends money to heal, I spend money on weapons & armor. That's how it works. I'm not buying a wand."

Those players have very uncomfortable moments when, during the next game, the healer won't heal them. These new players object, but our veteran players are like, "You should have got with the program. Tough luck." Some new players are apologetic at that point and fall in line, and get healed. Some new players get argumentative. They get drummed out, they quit, they pout, they complain, whatever.

An outsider could see that and think, "Wow that's mean." However, this is a standard/convention that builds off the PFS "don't make others spend money on you" rule, and it's meant to be courteous to the healer. If a player won't be courteous like that, and won't work with the team like that, then I'm not sure the veterans are the jerks in that case. I just don't think we need every troublesome player. I think it's OK to say "We have these expectations. Oh, you want to ragequit because of that? OK, bye."

I'm sure that none of what I've written applies to the player who started this topic. I would have no trouble believing that someone at that game store was being a jerk and excluding the newbie. So he/she has my condolences.

Still, I really think it's OK to have standards. There are new players who are persistent in ignoring the environment around them (both at the game table and in the game world), and just going off half-cocked. These players can endanger other characters that people really care about.

We had a new player bring a wizard to a game. Unlike the person at the beginning of this topic who said, "I would recommend new players to NEVER start with spellcasters," I will totally make room for a new player with a wizard. However, if you're going to do that, I expect you to know all the extra stuff that is needed to know how to play a wizard. This guy showed up with no armor, AC 10, and no Mage Armor spell, no Shield spell, and only 1 spell for offense (1 use of Magic Missile). We asked the GM if we could help him revise his spell list right there, and the new player shushed us. He said it would be fine. He had little clue how his spells worked, AND he kept running into the melee area of each combat encounter. He went down hard every time, and expected healing every time, and never learned anything. Here's a spoiler about this:

Spoiler:
We were in the module with the dagger that makes you commit suicide when you touch it. At this point, he had rushed ahead of us a dozen times, and had his butt saved every time, and we were exhausted. When we saw the dagger, we instantly knew something was up. He rushed in and grabbed it. We desperately asked him not to do this. When he died from failing the fort save, I "donated" my book that gives free rerolls to him, so that he could re-try the fort save. He still failed. And he was upset, but we were done. We were like, "Dude, we did everything to help you, and this was far too much babysitting for us. This isn't fun or funny." I mean, nobody said exactly that, and nobody was exactly mean, but everyone was done with it. I don't think that guy ever came back, and the only thing I heard about that was relief that he wasn't still blowing up games. And importantly, I think the veterans had a point. If you can't show up to the game with some kind of ability to contribute and be a team player, then at some point someone -- soon -- will stop wanting to carry your dead weight.

I love new players, but I expect them to be team players and learn. I don't love carrying dead weight. I really apologize if that makes me a pox on PFS. I just... I really want to draw in new players, but I cannot give them a free pass to just ignore everyone's advice, blow up the scenario, and then laugh it off in the name of fun. I mean, if the whole table is laughing with you, cool. But in many cases, including the one described at the start of this topic, it's clear that the rest of the table wasn't having as much fun. I think that's fair to consider.

1/5

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aboyd wrote:


The first time a player is at a game, we all chime in to tell that newbie about buying a wand of CLW with 2 prestige points. Some new players object to this. It's not how their home games go, and they want PFS to follow the home game style. They'll say, "The healer spends money to heal, I spend money on weapons & armor. That's how it works. I'm not buying a wand."

If one plays Master of the Fallen Fortress and then We Be Goblins (I think?), one may not have the PP necessary to purchase a wand until their *third* scenario. Add in a scenario where they might have to clear a condition (such as disease or a curse or whatnot) and suddenly even *THAT* isn't available any longer.

I actually did have a character that was somewhat in that kind of predicament, and couldn't afford a CLW wand until L2. So empathy is by necessity required in such circumstances.

aboyd wrote:


Those players have very uncomfortable moments when, during the next game, the healer won't heal them. These new players object, but our veteran players are like, "You should have got with the program. Tough luck." Some new players are apologetic at that point and fall in line, and get healed. Some new players get argumentative. They get drummed out, they quit, they pout, they complain, whatever.

An outsider could see that and think, "Wow that's mean." However, this is a standard/convention that builds off the PFS "don't make others spend money on you" rule, and it's meant to be courteous to the healer. If a player won't be courteous like that, and won't work with the team like that, then I'm not sure the veterans are the jerks in that case. I just don't think we need every troublesome player. I think it's OK to say "We have these expectations. Oh, you want to ragequit because of that? OK, bye."

However, presented like that is very much the jerkish sort of approach. If it can be done more diplomatically, a lot of that kind of situation could be avoided. My -1, for example, I had someone explain in my second scenario that being a freeloader was-- and they didn't have to go further into it.

I don't mind paying my share for healing. What I do mind is when someone tells me to do a thing, doesn't give a reason, and then treats me a like a jerk because I just don't 'hop to'.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Starfinder Superscriber

The #1 reason to buy a wand of CLW is so that you don't have to get into arguments with people who hate you if you don't have a wand of CLW.

Having healing available for yourself, and for others in the party if they need it, is a nice side-effect.


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If there is an expectation that new players or nearly new player bring a CLW wand, should that not be made clear in advance? That is a pretty specific requirement. Either by organisers or rules for character creation. It is not unreasonable to think if the party had a healer that he(she) will heal the party.

It sounds like an unwritten rule that people are expected stick to. Those are poor rules in my experience.

I think I can start to see now some people describe wizards resenting casting buffs on others or fighters resenting standing in the way of attacks to protect healers. Why not get rogues to charge money for the solution to bypass that dart trap they just found on the wall...?

Is this still a team game or is it every man for himself?

Scarab Sages

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The CLW thing is just an unspoken convention, but not a rule, that you help provide your own healing.

Basically, healing in combat is generally a taticly poor choice. Clerics/Druids/Other 9 classes that can use CLW wands are better served with buffs, offensive spells, and so forth.

By providing your own wand for others to cast on you, they don't need to spend either spell slots better used elsewhere, or their own expendable resources. It's mostly a nice thing to do. I never expect players to know about it until level 2. Then I think you should have one, but I'll still heal you anyway.


The Sword wrote:

If there is an expectation that new players or nearly new player bring a CLW wand, should that not be made clear in advance? That is a pretty specific requirement. Either by organisers or rules for character creation. It is not unreasonable to think if the party had a healer that he(she) will heal the party.

It sounds like an unwritten rule that people are expected stick to. Those are poor rules in my experience.

I think I can start to see now some people describe wizards resenting casting buffs on others or fighters resenting standing in the way of attacks to protect healers. Why not get rogues to charge money for the solution to bypass that dart trap they just found on the wall...?

Is this still a team game or is it every man for himself?

While I believe that you do have a point, it still seems unfair to me to expect the healer to be the only one to expend nonrenewable resources on healing the party. In a home game it would be a simple fix to dedicate a share to party expenses, such as wand, but in PFS the solution is for everyone to try to keep a healing wand on the.

1/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So does the PFSRPGG need a clarification section for 'things that are nice to have' for new players?

Perhaps a 'new player orientation packet' above and beyond what is already in the PFSRPGG?

The Exchange

The Sword wrote:
Is this still a team game or is it every man for himself?

It is a team game. Contribute by bringing what you will need.

There are plenty of guide and such to different topics to PFS already Wei Ji.

If someone is new maybe have a look at this article.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

rknop wrote:
The #1 reason to buy a wand of CLW is so that you don't have to get into arguments with people who hate you if you don't have a wand of CLW.

Truth.

1/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ragoz wrote:


If someone is new maybe have a look at this article.

Ragoz:

I'm at a major convention.

I've heard about this thing called Pathfinder Society. I decide to play.

I don't have a smartphone.

How do I *learn* this information at a table when I'm playing the first few times?

Not everyone is perfectly tech'd and connected, or informed.

AND

How do we present this information to new players so they don't feel like they're being *told* what to do versus 'a nice suggestion'?

Perception IS important!

Silver Crusade

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"Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
How do we present this information to new players so they don't feel like they're being *told* what to do versus 'a nice suggestion'?

By putting ranks in Diplomacy.

Quote:
Perception IS important!

So are the social skills. ;)

I think it is up to veteran players to help new players have an enjoyable experience.

This thread has done a good job of getting me to reflect on how I interact with new PFS players. :)


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I think some of the discussion today has gone wonky, so I want to try to bring it back to normal, if I can. Please consider how this "you must pay for healing" is based in the PFS rulebook:

PFS rulebook wrote:
In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, you may never buy items from, sell items to, or trade items with another player. You may, however, allow another player to borrow an item for the duration of a scenario.

Also:

PFS rulebook wrote:
Sometimes awful things happen to adventurers. After an all-night romp through the sewers, your wounds might start to fester with some foul disease—you might even die. You may have spells cast on your character, subtracting the gold piece cost from your total. If your gold is insufficient, the other players around the table may chip in to get you back on your feet, but they cannot be compelled to do so. It is their choice whether or not they aid you.

So our own guidebook paints a picture that is different from some home games. It clearly falls on the side of "you don't get to obligate someone to pay for your healing." Or really, in general, "you don't get to obligate someone or take from their loot in any way -- and sometimes we flat-out ban it, except for getting raised from the dead."

So we don't have a concept of "the healer must expend his cash to aid others." Some home games do. (In fact, I recently helped someone who was getting yelled at in a home game because he "wasn't doing his job as a healer." He didn't know how to heal a damphir in high volume, since his channels were positive energy and he didn't have enough ways to get negative energy healing. When he complained, he was told that it was his problem to figure out, and he had to figure it out quickly or he'd get booted for failing as a healer. So this mindset is out there, and I've seen people bring it to PFS.)

For those suggesting we might as well charge for other things, like the sorcerer delivering a buff, or the fighter defending a squishy caster from attack, please refocus on the PFS rules. It should be clear that the reason we focus on a healing wand is because we all expect this of the healer in high volume. If we all expected the arcane caster to give everyone Barkskin -- to the point that he's out of Barkskin spells and has to resort to a wand -- then we are imposing a financial cost on the wizard. And he has every right by our rules to say no.

Similarly, yes, the fighter might be justified to say no for a defense that costs him money. For example, if a rust monster is racing toward the cleric and the fighter says he will not engage in melee to intervene, we have no right to be upset with that fighter. He'll lose his armor and weapons! If he wants to stand at range and shoot arrows, that's fair. Or, if the group is under attack by undead, and the paladin has some special anti-undead one-time item, he may insist that the group take down the undead normally, rather than use that one-time item. It's his expense. He gets to decide where to use it. And we don't get to paint him as a jerk for doing that.

However, if that sorcerer has 5x Barkskin on his daily list and it costs him nothing to cast them, and he simply won't use any even though it'd make a difference, and now we're at the end of the module and 2 people are dead and this sorcerer is still sitting on 5x Barkskin on his daily list, that's a whole new ballgame. Now the questions about what exactly this sorcerer contributes start to become fair game. As well, if the paladin in our example has a shield with unlimited positive channeling -- so it can trigger at zero cost -- and he/she refuses to do it while people are begging for the help, then questions about how much of a team player that person is might be valid.

Again, this continually comes down to cost. And discussion that compares a cleric blowing through wands of CLW with others who are not expending consumables or experiencing cost due to limited charges or expense, are not comparing apples to apples.

If a bard says he won't do the free Inspire Courage because I won't buy wands of CLW and heal him dozens of times at my own expense, that's a mismatch. However, if the bard says he won't do Good Hope because he only has it on a wand and if the cleric isn't giving away wand charges then he won't either, that's a match.

Please, keep that in mind while we're discussing. We spam healing spells like crazy and I've had normal (not Bonekeep) modules where I've eaten up 25 to 40 charges in a single game. This is not something we do with almost any other spell, and if we did, the same limitations of fairness would come into play.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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I've given up educating people about self-care. They'll eventually get it and meanwhile the're other players, like me, perfectly willing to burn a few charges from time to time. Sometimes that means I'll burn 2/3 of a clw wunderschtick in an adventure, but that's fine.


Why does the healer have to spend money to heal? They have spells, channels, witch's hexes, Paladins lay on hands etc. They don't cost anything. Even If they say these abilities are only for themselves, why should the wizard cast haste, the rogue tell others about traps, the fighter take hp damage he will have to pay to heal in order to protect the rest of the party...

... Because people have specialisms and in using them correctly the total is greater than the sum of the individual parts. That's teamwork.

Now if there isn't a healer in the party or only a partial healer then yes people are going to have to buy potions or some other alternative. Are you saying a player is diseased or cursed or poisoned or blinded or feeble minded he should have an appopriate scroll ready so the cleric doesn't have to 'waste' daily resources curi this ailment?

Okay - as the cleric has the healing - the cleric can go first, as the rogue can't afford to scout anymore!

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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The Sword wrote:
Why does the healer have to spend money to heal? They have spells, channels, witch's hexes, Paladins lay on hands etc. They don't cost anything. Even If they say these abilities are only for themselves, why should the wizard cast haste, the rogue tell others about traps, the fighter take hp damage he will have to pay to heal in order to protect the rest of the party...

In pathfinder there are very few healing builds that will keep up with the amount of damage a party will sustain. Your chances of adventuring with one of these is pretty rare. As the editions have advanced damage has far outstripped healing. Anything but an absolute dedicated healer is going to have to suppliment their class abilities with wand charges.

Most players, especially level 1 with my first level 1 character, prefer to be topped off completely. Even IF the healer can keep you topped off, they might run out of channels at the worst possible time, say at the start of the boss fight when the fireballs keep flying. The best viable method of doing that are wand charges. (either CLW or infernal healing. If the sum total of your characters contribution to an adventure can be replaced by a 750 gp item you're probably doing something wrong.

.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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Can we not rehash the CLW wand argument again?


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Assuming that a CLW is something that that all players should try to pick up at some point, for the sake of argument at least, then there is a big difference between politely asking them to spend the two PP as soon as possible, and punishing someone for not doing so. Bonus points if you first politely ask if there is some reason why they would rather not.

2/5

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So I've done a lot of conventions in a lot of different places, and while local games aren't any indication, by far the community has been very nice.

Baconology wrote:
Played my second organized pathfinder core game and walked out because of demeaning and ridicule from veteran players.

How exactly did they ridicule you?

Baconology wrote:
1) Help new players.

In #2,3,4,5,6,7 it sounds like they were trying to help you, but you have to be receptive to it as well.

Baconology wrote:
2) Have the new player experience FUN, not frustration because they dont know alllll the rules.

Learning new rules and taking directions from others is sometimes frustrating, especially if you don't like being told what to do.

How did the GM and other players make it frustrating as opposed to fun?

Baconology wrote:
3) Dont be cynical and tell new players what they can and cannot do, let the GM do that.

Veteran players are actually trying to help the GM. This is what the community does in general. Other players occasionally correct me and I have 38 years of experience. It happens and you don't let your ego get in the way.

Baconology wrote:
4) Please dont say..."I would recommend new players to NEVER start with spellcasters", in front of everyone, and at the end of the game. Real barn burner that one.

It's just a recommendation and I think you're being too defensive.

I also wouldn't recommend spellcasters for new players or casual players.

If you are going to take a spellcaster, you need to be prepared and know all the spells and spell rules beforehand, and not look much up during the session. As you level up, you gain more options which makes it even tougher. It's not for the casual player.

Story time. I've seen:
1) Wizards with low str and taking feats in armor and weapons. It was not a plan, the player later realized his mistakes, although we never corrected it.
2) That guy doing a 1d4+1 magic missile each round, even at level 4.
3) That guy taking 5 minutes per turn because he doesn't know his spells and never looked it up when it was someone else's turn.

In terms of not contributing, wizards are probably worse than rogues in terms of being underpowered in the hands of a new player.

So yeah, bottom line, it's a recommendation, but if you're not going to follow the recommendation you'd better do some homework, play a pregen, or get someone to help you.

Baconology wrote:
5)New people may think outside the box, so give them at least some consideration of style play, and not box them in preconceived notions of rule and opinions. This is a game of imagination if i remember correctly.

Well, this isn't a home game and everything must fit within the bounds of "reality" and the game system.

In other words (real example from a player), you cannot draw your bow (from your backpack), tie an arrow to that bow, tie the other end to your waist, shoot at a tree 200' away, swing on that rope, all the while firing more arrows using Rapid Shot, all in 6 seconds. Fun imagery, but if you're going to play like that you might as well be playing "The Window".

Do you have specific examples of how they stifled your imagination?

Baconology wrote:
6) Dont let a new player be the only person in the group not being healed, because the veterans dont like you. Rude.

They probably all had their own Cure Light Wounds wands and assumed one of the spellcasters would use it on them. They probably didn't explain that to you.

You know there's a flipside here too. They don't know you. Did you say you were new? It's possible they didn't even know (that you weren't getting healed).

If that wasn't the case what exactly happened?

Baconology wrote:
7) The game should be FUN! Its us against the monsters, not veterans against new people.

How were the veteran players against you other than what you've already raised?

Sorry you had a bad time, I'd give it another try after talking to organizer. Organizers don't want to turn away new players and they should know about this. Maybe even veteran players in the area need to be a little more diplomatic, aware, or sensitive.


Why do you need to know all the spells and rules before hand? Why can't you just choose some spells and learn the rules relevant to those?

Casters have been part of this game since it was a game. Your recommendation is pretty insulting to new players really. Why didn't you tell the guy he could roll 2d4+2 for a magic missing? Were you getting your kicks watching him not succeed? Wizards using armour is missing a mechanic of the game like not realising what armour check modifiers can do. It can happen to any class - it's a shame someone didn't point that out to the guy at the start and suggest taking spell focus instead. Yeah - the problem the OP mentions becomes ever more apparent.

I'm a DM and player of 25 years who still looks things up during a session. As do my players - people who don't usually make assumptions and get things wrong

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

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I am seeing a lot of areas, where we as a community could be better, either at communication or when it comes to events for new players.

Obviously some players are resistant to positive suggestions/criticism and for some PFS may be a rather bad fit. Nothing wrong with that, but PFS is what it is.

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