paizo.com Recent Posts in Make newbies feel welcome.paizo.com Recent Posts in Make newbies feel welcome.2015-12-23T03:41:04Z2015-12-23T03:41:04ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Society: Make newbies feel welcome.Wrathhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t70u&page=2?Make-newbies-feel-welcome#662015-12-27T09:49:37Z2015-12-27T09:49:37Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">BigNorseWolf wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Wrath wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
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<p>In areas where there are high numbers of players, I'd suggest venture captains create some new player friendly groups. Maybe it's just a DM and one player willing to run with new players at a table. Possibly have set days where you advertise "new player tables running today".</blockquote><p>I don;t know how much it would help. There is no "the right way" to get a new guy into the game. Different styles work for different people and you really don't know until a style is or isn't working.
<p></blockquote><p>Yep, absolutely true Norse. It was just something I've done with my local shop when I was still running Pathfinder. It was more about teaching them the mechanics of the game and giving them a feel for how classes interacted with each other. If you can do that for new players a few times, when they finally get into a table with more experienced players they've got their head in a better place for taking advice or accepting the more competitive/defensive style of the organised play scene. Maybe it will work for some areas at least.BigNorseWolf wrote:Wrath wrote:In areas where there are high numbers of players, I'd suggest venture captains create some new player friendly groups. Maybe it's just a DM and one player willing to run with new players at a table. Possibly have set days where you advertise "new player tables running today".
I don;t know how much it would help. There is no "the right way" to get a new guy into the game. Different styles work for different people and you really don't know until a style is or...Wrath2015-12-27T09:49:37ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Society: Make newbies feel welcome.BigNorseWolfhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t70u&page=2?Make-newbies-feel-welcome#652015-12-27T08:14:52Z2015-12-27T08:14:52Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Wrath wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
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<p>In areas where there are high numbers of players, I'd suggest venture captains create some new player friendly groups. Maybe it's just a DM and one player willing to run with new players at a table. Possibly have set days where you advertise "new player tables running today".</blockquote><p>I don;t know how much it would help. There is no "the right way" to get a new guy into the game. Different styles work for different people and you really don't know until a style is or isn't working.Wrath wrote:In areas where there are high numbers of players, I'd suggest venture captains create some new player friendly groups. Maybe it's just a DM and one player willing to run with new players at a table. Possibly have set days where you advertise "new player tables running today".
I don;t know how much it would help. There is no "the right way" to get a new guy into the game. Different styles work for different people and you really don't know until a style is or isn't working.BigNorseWolf2015-12-27T08:14:52ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Society: Make newbies feel welcome.Wrathhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t70u&page=2?Make-newbies-feel-welcome#642015-12-27T07:46:36Z2015-12-27T07:46:36Z<p>I don't play PFS nor pathfinder any more, but I would like to offer a suggestion. </p>
<p>In areas where there are high numbers of players, I'd suggest venture captains create some new player friendly groups. Maybe it's just a DM and one player willing to run with new players at a table. Possibly have set days where you advertise "new player tables running today". </p>
<p>My experience with organised play is different expectations from different people. It comes down to a DM willing to make calls on the majority of the tables enjoyment more often than not. </p>
<p>Organised play, especially of the style like PFS where you can lose time invested in a character due to one bad group having them killed off, really does push a competitive feel to a game. If you get newbies settled into rules etc and introduce some of the hidden expectations to them over two or three games, it's far less jarring than having one new player sit in with experienced players in an organised setting.</p>
<p>I think sometimes it's important for DMs to pull into line the group destructive behaviour some people want their characters to have. This is tough in PFS at the moment I understand. But as was pointed out earlier, it sucks when you have the majority of the group gunning for diplomacy and spent 15 minutes getting it done, only to have some Jerk character (not necessarily player, they may try to justify why the character is doing it) suddenly stab the diplomat in the throat. If it's not faction essential, then I'd be calling an outright no on that kind of stuff.</p>I don't play PFS nor pathfinder any more, but I would like to offer a suggestion.
In areas where there are high numbers of players, I'd suggest venture captains create some new player friendly groups. Maybe it's just a DM and one player willing to run with new players at a table. Possibly have set days where you advertise "new player tables running today".
My experience with organised play is different expectations from different people. It comes down to a DM willing to make calls on the...Wrath2015-12-27T07:46:36ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Society: Make newbies feel welcome.BigNorseWolfhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t70u&page=2?Make-newbies-feel-welcome#632015-12-27T07:27:54Z2015-12-27T07:27:54Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rambone wrote:</div><blockquote> My first games were with murderhobos who didn't have any problem killing unconscious, surrendering, or helpless NPCs. I thought 'this is pretty stupid, not very heroic, and actually kind of offensive' and didn't play PFS for about six months until I went to a con which didn't have 'the other game' and I was pretty much forced to. Luckily the other groups I played with weren't nearly so bad and I moved over to PFS most of the time. </blockquote><p>Of course, someone could just as easily show up to a PFS event and be annoyed by the people not letting him kill everything "what hte hell i thought this was an adventure game not the monsters of our lives soap opera!"
<p>Different groups have vastly different styles, even in the allegedly uniform experience of PFS. I think people forget that they don't have signs on their heads saying "I am 85% murder hobo and 40% role playing" </p>
<p>Someone could just as easily not enjoy a session, show up and say </p>
<p>Someone show me the rules here! I need to know how to do stuff. </p>
<p>None of the other players talked to me at all, they had to wait for the DM to do that and he was busy running the adventure. Come on guys, help us both out </p>
<p>Why didn't anyone warn me that running an arcane caster is THE hardest class you can walk into off the street with 800 extra rules? </p>
<p>5) The DM keeps saying no to stuff I want to do, why didn't anyone tell me there's something called action economy? </p>
<p>6) Why are people just throwing all these spells and effects on me? Its getting confusing and complicated.</p>Rambone wrote:My first games were with murderhobos who didn't have any problem killing unconscious, surrendering, or helpless NPCs. I thought 'this is pretty stupid, not very heroic, and actually kind of offensive' and didn't play PFS for about six months until I went to a con which didn't have 'the other game' and I was pretty much forced to. Luckily the other groups I played with weren't nearly so bad and I moved over to PFS most of the time.
Of course, someone could just as easily show up...BigNorseWolf2015-12-27T07:27:54ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Society: Make newbies feel welcome.Wei Ji the Learnerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t70u&page=2?Make-newbies-feel-welcome#622015-12-27T07:23:21Z2015-12-27T07:23:21Z<p>We had someone who didn't appreciate our talking and attempting to negotiate with viable subjects encountered in one scenario and attempted to throw a bomb at an NPC while characters were talking to said NPC.</p>
<p>Because this wasn't the first time the particular character had been acting erratically, the GM allowed us all to roll perception and initiative, along with the character. When my character won initiative, he dove in front of the NPC to 'eat' any bombs that were thrown.</p>
<p>Player's response in discussion "Why did you do that, we had a clean shot at •NPC•"</p>
<p>Best part of the story? Negotiation saved us our second PP. We would have lost it AND gotten a pretty nasty boon on top of it if we'd tried to 'fight it out'.</p>We had someone who didn't appreciate our talking and attempting to negotiate with viable subjects encountered in one scenario and attempted to throw a bomb at an NPC while characters were talking to said NPC.
Because this wasn't the first time the particular character had been acting erratically, the GM allowed us all to roll perception and initiative, along with the character. When my character won initiative, he dove in front of the NPC to 'eat' any bombs that were thrown.
Player's...Wei Ji the Learner2015-12-27T07:23:21ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Society: Make newbies feel welcome.Rambonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t70u&page=2?Make-newbies-feel-welcome#612015-12-27T07:14:39Z2015-12-27T07:01:20Z<p>My first games were with murderhobos who didn't have any problem killing unconscious, surrendering, or helpless NPCs. I thought 'this is pretty stupid, not very heroic, and actually kind of offensive' and didn't play PFS for about six months until I went to a con which didn't have 'the other game' and I was pretty much forced to. Luckily the other groups I played with weren't nearly so bad and I moved over to PFS most of the time.</p>My first games were with murderhobos who didn't have any problem killing unconscious, surrendering, or helpless NPCs. I thought 'this is pretty stupid, not very heroic, and actually kind of offensive' and didn't play PFS for about six months until I went to a con which didn't have 'the other game' and I was pretty much forced to. Luckily the other groups I played with weren't nearly so bad and I moved over to PFS most of the time.Rambone2015-12-27T07:01:20ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Society: Make newbies feel welcome.The Swordhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t70u&page=2?Make-newbies-feel-welcome#602015-12-26T15:52:42Z2015-12-26T15:52:42Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jason S wrote:</div><blockquote><p>Story time. I've seen:
</p>
1) Wizards with low str and taking feats in armor and weapons. It was not a plan, the player later realized his mistakes, although we never corrected it.
<br />
2) That guy doing a 1d4+1 magic missile each round, even at level 4. </blockquote><p>You said you never corrected it...
<p>My point is that just because a few people are defensive doesn't mean you leave everyone to get on with it. I take people on face value based on what they say or do. Not based on what other people have done.</p>
<p>Not judging you, mate just asking further questions. I apologise for being snarky about it.</p>Jason S wrote:Story time. I've seen:
1) Wizards with low str and taking feats in armor and weapons. It was not a plan, the player later realized his mistakes, although we never corrected it.
2) That guy doing a 1d4+1 magic missile each round, even at level 4.
You said you never corrected it... My point is that just because a few people are defensive doesn't mean you leave everyone to get on with it. I take people on face value based on what they say or do. Not based on what other people...The Sword2015-12-26T15:52:42ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Society: Make newbies feel welcome.Jason Shttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t70u&page=2?Make-newbies-feel-welcome#592015-12-26T14:14:49Z2015-12-26T14:14:49Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">The Sword wrote:</div><blockquote> Why do you need to know all the spells and rules before hand? Why can't you just choose some spells and learn the rules relevant to those?</blockquote><p>Obviously, you only need to know what you use. You're not being argumentative are you?
<div class="messageboard-quotee">The Sword wrote:</div><blockquote>Casters have been part of this game since it was a game.</blockquote><p>And? These days, it seems like several people are casual and can barely keep their chronicles and gear selection up-to-date. They just want to "show up and play", like it was a video game, or a board game. There's nothing wrong with that, but for the sake of the table, it would be better if they had an easier character to play, since even learning the basic rules of the game will be an ongoing process.
<p>I have two players like that in my home game.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">The Sword wrote:</div><blockquote>Why didn't you tell the guy he could roll 2d4+2 for a magic missing?</blockquote><p>You're very judgmental, how do you know that I didn't say something?
<p>I have in several instances.</p>
<p>The last guy was using a wand, he was very knowledgeable, so I have no idea what he was doing. I just figured he was holding stuff back.</p>
<p>And like I pointed out in this thread already, defensive people don't like being told what to do, so sometimes it's better to just let it slide, especially at a convention. Maybe he is just "playing his character".</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">The Sword wrote:</div><blockquote>Were you getting your kicks watching him not succeed? Wizards using armour is missing a mechanic of the game like not realising what armour check modifiers can do. It can happen to any class - it's a shame someone didn't point that out to the guy at the start and suggest taking spell focus instead. Yeah - the problem the OP mentions becomes ever more apparent.</blockquote><p>Very judgmental again, how do you know I didn't say something?
<p>We actually •did• nudge the player (and did suggest Spell Focus), but he didn't understand and thought feats in armor and weapons were the best thing ever. If we said any more plainly it would have been offensive.</p>
<p>I'd rather be diplomatic than pushy.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">The Sword wrote:</div><blockquote>I'm a DM and player of 25 years who still looks things up during a session. As do my players - people who don't usually make assumptions and get things wrong </blockquote><p>We all look up things, I never play without my core rulebook. I think you've misinterpreted me.
<p>For someone to feel this way, I think there are things that people on both sides could do better, and chances are the veteran players don't even know that it's making someone new feel unwelcome.</p>The Sword wrote:Why do you need to know all the spells and rules before hand? Why can't you just choose some spells and learn the rules relevant to those?
Obviously, you only need to know what you use. You're not being argumentative are you? The Sword wrote:Casters have been part of this game since it was a game.
And? These days, it seems like several people are casual and can barely keep their chronicles and gear selection up-to-date. They just want to "show up and play", like it was a...Jason S2015-12-26T14:14:49ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Society: Make newbies feel welcome.Nohwearhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t70u&page=2?Make-newbies-feel-welcome#582015-12-26T14:05:40Z2015-12-26T14:05:40Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Wei Ji the Learner wrote:</div><blockquote></p>
<p>I sat down at a different recent iteration of a particularly popular rpg's campaign table and the person to my side was •incredibly insistent• that my stats 'were wrong' and that I should 'just be such and such race' and essentially 'do what I tell you, I'll be your gamer boy/girlfriend tonight'.</p>
<p>Suffice to say, that impression has left a rather foul feeling about that campaign, and I may avoid it completely in the future. It's a bit of a shame, because there is promise there, but it definitely wasn't a •fun• experience.</p>
<p></blockquote>THAT, I feel, is the sort of person who needs to be told that they are "doing it wrong," since they are stuck in a mindset that insists there is but one right way to do those things - and since that is not true, the mindset that leads them to believe that is wrong. </blockquote><p>I completely agree.I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:Wei Ji the Learner wrote:I sat down at a different recent iteration of a particularly popular rpg's campaign table and the person to my side was *incredibly insistent* that my stats 'were wrong' and that I should 'just be such and such race' and essentially 'do what I tell you, I'll be your gamer boy/girlfriend tonight'.
Suffice to say, that impression has left a rather foul feeling about that campaign, and I may avoid it completely in the future. It's a bit...Nohwear2015-12-26T14:05:40ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Society: Make newbies feel welcome.I'm Hiding In Your Closethttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t70u&page=2?Make-newbies-feel-welcome#572015-12-26T14:03:01Z2015-12-26T14:03:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Wei Ji the Learner wrote:</div><blockquote></p>
<p>I sat down at a different recent iteration of a particularly popular rpg's campaign table and the person to my side was •incredibly insistent• that my stats 'were wrong' and that I should 'just be such and such race' and essentially 'do what I tell you, I'll be your gamer boy/girlfriend tonight'.</p>
<p>Suffice to say, that impression has left a rather foul feeling about that campaign, and I may avoid it completely in the future. It's a bit of a shame, because there is promise there, but it definitely wasn't a •fun• experience.</p>
<p></blockquote><p>THAT, I feel, is the sort of person who needs to be told that they are "doing it wrong," since they are stuck in a mindset that insists there is but one right way to do those things - and since that is not true, the mindset that leads them to believe that is wrong.Wei Ji the Learner wrote:I sat down at a different recent iteration of a particularly popular rpg's campaign table and the person to my side was *incredibly insistent* that my stats 'were wrong' and that I should 'just be such and such race' and essentially 'do what I tell you, I'll be your gamer boy/girlfriend tonight'.
Suffice to say, that impression has left a rather foul feeling about that campaign, and I may avoid it completely in the future. It's a bit of a shame, because there is...I'm Hiding In Your Closet2015-12-26T14:03:01ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Society: Make newbies feel welcome.Wei Ji the Learnerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t70u&page=2?Make-newbies-feel-welcome#562015-12-26T13:52:49Z2015-12-26T13:52:49Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Scythia wrote:</div><blockquote><p> If I had began the hobby only to face condescension and "you're doing it wrong" thinly veiled as advice, to say nothing of healing attitudes that would make Ayn Rand giggle, I probably wouldn't be playing today. </p>
<p>At least not any iteration of D&D. </blockquote><p>I sat down at a different recent iteration of a particularly popular rpg's campaign table and the person to my side was •incredibly insistent• that my stats 'were wrong' and that I should 'just be such and such race' and essentially 'do what I tell you, I'll be your gamer boy/girlfriend tonight'.
<p>Suffice to say, that impression has left a rather foul feeling about that campaign, and I may avoid it completely in the future. It's a bit of a shame, because there is promise there, but it definitely wasn't a •fun• experience.</p>Scythia wrote:If I had began the hobby only to face condescension and "you're doing it wrong" thinly veiled as advice, to say nothing of healing attitudes that would make Ayn Rand giggle, I probably wouldn't be playing today.
At least not any iteration of D&D.
I sat down at a different recent iteration of a particularly popular rpg's campaign table and the person to my side was *incredibly insistent* that my stats 'were wrong' and that I should 'just be such and such race' and essentially...Wei Ji the Learner2015-12-26T13:52:49ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Society: Make newbies feel welcome.I'm Hiding In Your Closethttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t70u&page=2?Make-newbies-feel-welcome#552015-12-26T13:35:10Z2015-12-26T13:35:10Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Nohwear wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Scythia wrote:</div><blockquote><p> If I had began the hobby only to face condescension and "you're doing it wrong" thinly veiled as advice, to say nothing of healing attitudes that would make Ayn Rand giggle, I probably wouldn't be playing today. </p>
<p>At least not any iteration of D&D. </blockquote>While I might be reading that wrong, telling the healer that they have to bare the full cost of keeping everyone at max hit points sounds like a great way to wind up with some one with a wand and UMD as the closest thing resembling a healer, if that. </blockquote><p>What I hate is the fact that these topics come up in the first place, since the type of behavior that people would have to be witnessing for these topics to even be a repeat thing on these boards can only be described as "stupid." I'd never think to instigate conflicts for a lot of the reasons I see people complain about on here, nor would many of the people I've played with.
<p>After over a decade of watching MMOs and websites fall all over themselves with increasingly Asmodean lists of behavior rules, I find it so edifying and revealing that at long last, Paizo.com comes along and, aside from some perfunctory <i>magic circle against Klan</i> lines, simply told us "don't be a jerk" - and lo, most of us understood and were not jerks.</p>
<p>The same ought to apply to "don't be stupid." Stupid is like obscene: I know it when I see it.</p>Nohwear wrote:Scythia wrote:If I had began the hobby only to face condescension and "you're doing it wrong" thinly veiled as advice, to say nothing of healing attitudes that would make Ayn Rand giggle, I probably wouldn't be playing today.
At least not any iteration of D&D.
While I might be reading that wrong, telling the healer that they have to bare the full cost of keeping everyone at max hit points sounds like a great way to wind up with some one with a wand and UMD as the closest thing...I'm Hiding In Your Closet2015-12-26T13:35:10ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Society: Make newbies feel welcome.Nohwearhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t70u&page=2?Make-newbies-feel-welcome#542015-12-26T13:17:58Z2015-12-26T13:17:58Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Scythia wrote:</div><blockquote><p> If I had began the hobby only to face condescension and "you're doing it wrong" thinly veiled as advice, to say nothing of healing attitudes that would make Ayn Rand giggle, I probably wouldn't be playing today. </p>
<p>At least not any iteration of D&D. </blockquote><p>While I might be reading that wrong, telling the healer that they have to bare the full cost of keeping everyone at max hit points sounds like a great way to wind up with some one with a wand and UMD as the closest thing resembling a healer, if that.Scythia wrote:If I had began the hobby only to face condescension and "you're doing it wrong" thinly veiled as advice, to say nothing of healing attitudes that would make Ayn Rand giggle, I probably wouldn't be playing today.
At least not any iteration of D&D.
While I might be reading that wrong, telling the healer that they have to bare the full cost of keeping everyone at max hit points sounds like a great way to wind up with some one with a wand and UMD as the closest thing resembling a...Nohwear2015-12-26T13:17:58ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Society: Make newbies feel welcome.I'm Hiding In Your Closethttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t70u&page=2?Make-newbies-feel-welcome#532015-12-26T12:57:55Z2015-12-26T12:57:55Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Scythia wrote:</div><blockquote>...to say nothing of healing attitudes that would make Ayn Rand giggle...</blockquote><p>Uh...you mean like how Asmodean Clerics interpret the Chelaxian expression "do a favor" literally, and expect to be paid every time they cast a <i>cure wounds</i> spell? I can't think of any other meaning for that term of yours there...as a matter of fact, I can't tell you who're arguing with/against (then again, perhaps your post following mine is just a coincidence, because it <i>sounds</i> like we should be on the same side).Scythia wrote:...to say nothing of healing attitudes that would make Ayn Rand giggle...
Uh...you mean like how Asmodean Clerics interpret the Chelaxian expression "do a favor" literally, and expect to be paid every time they cast a cure wounds spell? I can't think of any other meaning for that term of yours there...as a matter of fact, I can't tell you who're arguing with/against (then again, perhaps your post following mine is just a coincidence, because it sounds like we should be on the...I'm Hiding In Your Closet2015-12-26T12:57:55ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Society: Make newbies feel welcome.Scythiahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t70u&page=2?Make-newbies-feel-welcome#522015-12-27T17:42:31Z2015-12-26T12:22:08Z<p>If I had began the hobby only to face condescension and "you're doing it wrong" thinly veiled as advice, to say nothing of healing attitudes that would make Ayn Rand giggle, I probably wouldn't be playing today. </p>
<p>At least not any iteration of D&D.</p>If I had began the hobby only to face condescension and "you're doing it wrong" thinly veiled as advice, to say nothing of healing attitudes that would make Ayn Rand giggle, I probably wouldn't be playing today.
At least not any iteration of D&D.Scythia2015-12-26T12:22:08ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Society: Make newbies feel welcome.I'm Hiding In Your Closethttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t70u&page=2?Make-newbies-feel-welcome#512015-12-27T12:27:58Z2015-12-26T12:10:41Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Baconology wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
5)New people may think outside the box, so give them at least some consideration of style play, and not box them in preconceived notions of rule and opinions. This is a game of imagination if i remember correctly.</p>
<p></blockquote><p>I'm very much onboard with this IF/WHEN this is how it goes.
<p>One thing I see that bothers me GREATLY is a wave of comparatively new players <i>that actually have a more boxed-in mindset than older players,</i> as there's this "Church of Gaming" that got organized over the course of the late-'000s with its own mind-narrowing lingo and doctrine of how to think and play (this being the whole "crunch V fluff/Forge of Combat/martials V casters/DPR/optimization uber alles/etc" crowd) that seems to enthusiasm-bomb new players into thinking that that IS how the game is played (even going so far as to appropriate and codify the word "fun"), when in fact the veteran gamers, who see an infinitely vaster cosmology of possibility without those mental grooves hemming them in, that are getting edged out. It's a thought-plague of energetic evangelical mediocrity that decided what the game needed was ORDER! ORGANIZATION! AND STANDARDIZATION!, when in fact that's directly antagonistic to what makes fantasy gaming thrive - there's no room for Occam's Razor in the realms of the infinite.</p>Baconology wrote:5)New people may think outside the box, so give them at least some consideration of style play, and not box them in preconceived notions of rule and opinions. This is a game of imagination if i remember correctly.
I'm very much onboard with this IF/WHEN this is how it goes. One thing I see that bothers me GREATLY is a wave of comparatively new players that actually have a more boxed-in mindset than older players, as there's this "Church of Gaming" that got organized over the...I'm Hiding In Your Closet2015-12-26T12:10:41Z