Build Help- Swashbuckler / Ranger


Advice

Grand Lodge

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Greetings all.
I've always wanted to build a swashbuckler, just they sound like a fun class.
My friend told me about the Freebooter Ranger Archetype, and i thought the two classes would make for a good support fighter. Survivability, reflexes, and flair of the Swashbuckler, with the buff of the Freebooter's Bane.

The thing is- the character a Kitsune; also, would like to multiclass the Ranger to 4 so I also get the flanking bonus ability.

I've trying to figure out if there's a way to build her so, with her diminished strength, she can still deal a decent amount of damage; but that isn't completely dependent on Rapiers and Fencer's Grace- or Dervish Dance.

I had considered the Flying Blade swashbuckler archetype, and dual-wield Starknives- while also taking the Two Weapon Fighting combat style- but again, low strength means low damage even if i'm not throwing the starknives.
(But I'll save the Desna Buzzsaw as i call it, for a rogue build.)

TL;DR- I want to build a Swashbuckler that splashes some Ranger levels, and if possible, isn't a typical Rapier wielder.
Her stats are TBD.

Any advice will be considered. Thanks.


Piranha Strike is Power Attack for light weapons/low strength attackers. It can be used with starknives easily, or with a rapier (or other 1H weapon) with effortless lace applied to it. Swashbuckler, including Flying Blade, isn't terribly TWF-friendly though if you were still thinking of that.

There are some combat maneuvers which are worthwhile and effective for low-strength combatants. Dirty Trick springs to mind, as does Trip. Dirty Fighting is a feat which is almost strictly superior to Combat Expertise for the prereq, especially if you get the flank bonus from Freebooter. Also you might be encouraged to use weapons which give bonuses to combat maneuvers rather than a rapier; maybe something in one hand for use when you're using combat maneuvers, a more typical rapier/scimitar in the other for rounds when you're making normal attacks.

Grand Lodge

Talking with my friend and I may be better off sticking with the Rapier.
Taking the Inspired Blade archetype to snatch Fencer's Grace at level 1- in conjunction with the Weapon Focus (Rapier) bonus feat.

I like the idea of using Dirty Fighting, possibly going Improved Disarm... I may take Faithful (Cayden Cailen) for Combat Reflexes and take Dirty Trick at lvl 3.

If i could work it, Disorienting Maneuver.

Currently her stats are 8/16/13/14/12/16, and with her Inspired Blade archetype- she'll have 5 panache [Cha + Int].


So feats like
Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Focus, Fencing Grace, Weapon Finesse
Ranger 1
Ranger 2: Combat Reflexes, Dirty Fighting
Ranger 3
Ranger 4: Improved Something

Improved Disarm may be flavorful but it's less often useful than you'd think. Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Trip, or just the Piranha Strike I mentioned would be useful more often.

Grand Lodge

I should probably get Agile Maneuvers before Dirty Fighting, with my -1 Str. If I decide to go the Dirty Fighting route.

I just have to wonder, after 4th lvl Freebooter with Dirty Fighting, do i forego all my flanking bonus, or just +2 of it?

Dirty Fighting Inspired Blade/Freebooter build

Spoiler:

S1/1- Weapon Finesse* Weapon Focus (Rapier)*, Fencer's Grace
R1/2- X
R2/3- Combat Reflexes, Dodge
R3/4- X
R4/5- Piranha Strike
S2/6- X
S3/7- Agile Maneuvers
S4/8- Dirty Fighting
S5/9- Disorienting Maneuver
S6/10- X
S7/11- ?

Still pondering how I'll make it, if i don't go the Dirty Fighting route.
I do plan on buying the Boots of the Daredevil for the added "Canny Tumble" effect.


Weapon Finesse should suffice for most combat maneuvers you'd be interested in. Certainly disarm and trip, maybe also dirty trick. Anything you can use your weapon for, basically.

Dodge is not good value for a feat. Combat Reflexes is only OK if you're not otherwise building on it.

dirty fighting wrote:
When you attempt a combat maneuver check against a foe you are flanking, you can forgo the +2 bonus on your attack roll for flanking
freebooter's bond wrote:
All allies within 30 feet who can see or hear the freebooter gain an additional +2 bonus on attack rolls when flanking with the freebooter or with another ally affected by this ability.

These are separate bonuses. Enjoy.


Combat Reflexes allows Opportune Riposte and Parry multiple times a round.


avr, as a GM Id go the otherway for the Dirty Fighting + Freebooter's Bond combo;

dirty fighting wrote:
When you attempt a combat maneuver check against a foe you are flanking, you can forgo the +2 bonus on your attack roll for flanking
freebooter's bond wrote:
All allies within 30 feet who can see or hear the freebooter gain an additional +2 bonus on attack rolls when flanking with the freebooter or with another ally affected by this ability.

As you forgoed the initial +2 bonus, there is nothing to add in addition to; you gave up the bonus to not provoke.

Not a big deal in my opinion, as the penelty only applies to that one roll. Other GMs might agree with your interpritation though.

Liberty's Edge

My Self wrote:
Combat Reflexes allows Opportune Riposte and Parry multiple times a round.

Multiple Parry but you can only Riposte once per round.

Grand Lodge

avr wrote:

Weapon Finesse should suffice for most combat maneuvers you'd be interested in. Certainly disarm and trip, maybe also dirty trick. Anything you can use your weapon for, basically.

Dodge is not good value for a feat. Combat Reflexes is only OK if you're not otherwise building on it.

Dodge is mostly a pre-req for Disorienting Maneuver. I could switch around the feats.

Disorienting Maneuver is easier to get than Canny Tumble.

Combat Reflexes will be fun- knock'em back down when they try to stand up.

Grand Lodge

Okay, Agile Maneuvers is moot with my Dirty Fighting Swashbuckler.

Level plan-
S1/1- Weapon Finesse* Weapon Focus (Rapier)* Fencer's Grace
R1/2- X
R2/3- Combat Reflexes, Piranha Strike
R3/4- X
R4/5- Dirty Fighting
S2/6- X
S3/7- Gang Up
S4/8- Dodge
S5/9- Disorienting Maneuver
S6/10- X
S7/11- Combat Expertise
S8/12- Mobility?

any advice overwise?


Ranger will let you take power attack without high strength if you can't get piranha strike to work with a rapier.

Grand Lodge

... *blank stare* ...
>reads up on Rapiers, Fencing Grace, & Piranha Strike

... *facepalm* ...

Okay, Rapiers aren't light weapons, and unless there's something out there that says otherwise, or enables Rapiers & Pirahna Strike, that's out.

Though, if i'm planning on going the Dirty Trick route, the extra damage isn't imperative. with my dex modifier and Fencing Grace, i'm already dealing a +3 damage.

So, I can do Dirty Fighting at lvl 3, Gang Up lvl 5, and Improved Dirty Trip at lvl 7.


There is a way to make rapiers light. Effortless Lace. 2500 gp should be affordable by level 4 or so.

Grand Lodge

ah, okay good. I heard that item/upgrade mentioned somewhere- but couldn't find it.

If i budget my money, i could take Piranha Strike at lvl 5 and do some more than decent damage at that time.
I could take Pommel Strike so i'm not restricted to just piercing damage.

in her first test session- she fought swarms and zombies... not great enemies to fight with just piercing weapons.

could i power attack in an Attack of Opportunity?


Take a morningstar along with your rapier, if you need to bash people. Also consider the Weapon Versatility feat.

If you use Deadly Aim, Power Attack, or Piranha Strike, you gain the extra damage an the hit penalty until your next turn. You have to choose to start Deadly Aiming, Power Attacking, or Piranha Striking at the beginning of your turn.

Grand Lodge

i do plan on buying a Melee Contigency Kit- which gets me a Cold Iron Morningstar & silver sickle and a half-dozen alchemical items [2 Acid/AF/HW] for an affordable 150 gp. [Melee Tactics Toolbox PC, fyi]

Pommel Strike works well with my build as it's damage + a trip attempt


Looking over your build, I think the Inspired Blade Archetype is hurting you more than helping - no matter what you do, a Ranger/Swashbuckler will have a weak will save, so you will want to have Charmed Life handy at minimum +2, add in Indomitable Faith, Iron Will and you will have something half way respectable. By taking Inspired Blade, you are splitting your attribute points between INT and CHA.

Free Weapon Focus (Rapier) might be tempting, but is only a single feat with preqs you meet automatically at level 1.

While buying Power Attack with your Combat Style might seem tempting, getting 13 STR is cheap in point buy, from there you can take any feat that uses it as a prerequisite; like Cleave or Furious Focus.

Grand Lodge

Why should I boost my strength up to 13, when it would be more convenient to use a dex- a stat that makes sense with a Swashbuckler?

I'm also playing a Kitsune, so that -2 Strength, boosting it up to 13 takes more points away.

YES- let's invest 7 points into my Str and dumb down my other stats. I still want decent Ch and Dex, which sure as hell leave my Wisdom lacking.

And aren't Will Saves usually the bane of Melee Classes? I'd rather not waste a feat for a Save, i can just invest in some gear.

and i don't see how Inspired Blade hinders my Will Save, or why it's detrimental in your eyes.

Ironically, i've had characters with good saves fail them when needed, and succeed in saves they lack in.
And i've so infrequently run into a mage that specializes in Enchantment spells or the ilk that rely on will saves.

I could shuffle around my levels, but i prioritize the Freebooter level over Charmed life. And i'd rather get two feats in one level, then getting one per level for two lvl.


Kiydune get a -2 to str, so it actually does cost him a lot for 13 str


Wow, you're free to disagree with my advice, but you're being quite insulting.

All characters fail their better saves from time to time; having a higher save makes that happen less often. Martials that fail a will save can often be a bigger threat to the party than your foes, as your party will avoid actions that kill you.

I am not suggesting any sacrifice of your Ranger levels either, according to your outline your PC will take at least 8 levels in Swashbuckler, so I don't see why taking advantage of Charmed Life is ruining your build.

I don't know what kind of point buy you are dealing with, but it will be easier to have just a high charisma, instead of high intelligence and charisma. Having your Panache run off Int lowers your final pool size, and since you are accumulating only on a killing blow instead of crits as well, you will have a lower amount of points to play with over the course of a session.

You are right about the Kitsune taking a minus to Strength, I didn't realise that when I made my suggestions. Your low carry capacity will hurt you though, so try to hit 10.

Grand Lodge

I apologize for my abrasive response, but when advice is counter-intuitive- i get defensive.

I could dumb down my Wis to get my Str to 10, since a> my will saves already suck and b> i'm only getting to 4th lvl ranger- i'll only have access to lvl 1 spells.

i have a gnome sorcerer with 5 str, and a handy-haversack for carrying is adventuring gear.

Charmed life would help, i'm still debating how to level her up.
Options are-
1> Get second lvl Swashbuckler to get Charmed Life, then get four lvls of Ranger after.
2> Get first-lvl Ranger at 2, then Swashbuckler 2 at 3.
3> Get two levels of ranger, then swashbuckler 2 at 4, then finish up ranger.

Charmed Life at lvl 2 would be handy, if i stick with low tier sessions. I could be crazy a play up a few times if able.

Grand Lodge

Selvaxri wrote:

I apologize for my abrasive response, but when advice is counter-intuitive- i get defensive.

I could dumb down my Wis to get my Str to 10, since a> my will saves already suck and b> i'm only getting to 4th lvl ranger- i'll only have access to lvl 1 spells.

i have a gnome sorcerer with 5 str, and a handy-haversack for carrying is adventuring gear.

Charmed life would help, i'm still debating how to level her up.
Options are-
1> Get second lvl Swashbuckler to get Charmed Life, then get four lvls of Ranger after.
2> Get first-lvl Ranger at 2, then Swashbuckler 2 at 3.
3> Get two levels of ranger, then swashbuckler 2 at 4, then finish up ranger.

Charmed Life at lvl 2 would be handy, if i stick with low tier sessions. I could be crazy a play up a few times if able.

Wayfinder + Clear Spinal Ioun Stone

UMD- You can up your saves via Heroism scrolls. The potions are expensive and would work as well.
Iron Will Feat

Charmed life actually hardly helps when your actual save is crappy. Make the bonus to the save higher and you will see more return on charmed life. I would not rush this ability. I would suggest Swash 1/Ranger 6/Then back to swash.

I feel you would be built stronger by 1 level dip and focus down on a class till 7 HD. I also think the 6 ranger will net you a LOT. +2 freebooters, +2 will save, 2 ranger feats, 1 Favored Terrain (underestimated but strong), and endurance.

Grand Lodge

That's another build i've been debating- instead of splashing Ranger, splash the Swashbuckler.

for the Ranger combat style, I'm going with Faithful (Cayden Cailen) to get Combat Reflexes- as no other Style offers it.

The 8th lvl Swashbuckler Feat isn't as restricted to what i could take at 6 lvl Ranger.

6th lvl Ranger would inhibit getting my 7th lvl Swashbuckler Deeds. Though most of them are moot- i do like the Targeted Strike deed as it plays in with her Dirty Trick style.

At most, i want to get to 5th lvl Ranger for the +2 Bane bonus.

i guess i'll be playing this one by ear, leveling up her multiclass as needed.

Grand Lodge

Selvaxri wrote:

That's another build i've been debating- instead of splashing Ranger, splash the Swashbuckler.

for the Ranger combat style, I'm going with Faithful (Cayden Cailen) to get Combat Reflexes- as no other Style offers it.

The 8th lvl Swashbuckler Feat isn't as restricted to what i could take at 6 lvl Ranger.

6th lvl Ranger would inhibit getting my 7th lvl Swashbuckler Deeds.

At most, i want to get to 5th lvl Ranger for the +2 Bane bonus.

i guess i'll be playing this one by ear, leveling up her multiclass as needed.

This is my honest opinion on the swashbuckler Class.

It is a Great 1 level dip class. As a class by itself it is one of the weakest front line classes written. The Unchained Rogue moved it up the totem pole and now Swashbuckler is struggling. Low saves (only reflex), Precision based Damage, and light armor on a front-liner is typically a recipe for disaster. I could argue 5 levels of swash is the absolute max one should take. Getting the Weapon Training is very nice and can be increased with Gloves of Dueling to add more kick to it. As for the 7th Level abilities. They are rather lackluster. Superior Feint means your doing 0 Damage on your turn and allowing the enemy time to do you (or your group) more harm. Targeted Strike has some critters immune to the ability completely and/or immune to some of the effects it inflicts. Not to mention it takes a full round action for a SINGLE attack. As a Front line Hammer character it is your responsibility to END the fight as quickly as possible so no more harm comes to you or the rest of your allies. The 6 levels of Ranger shore up better saves and more reliable damage (not Precision based).

But again that is my opinion of the game of pathfinder. Many do not share this view. But there are also many who would concur this analysis of the game. The Forge of Combat is a very good read that concurs with my views above.

Which style you talking about...is it one of these?

Quote:

Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whip), Weapon Finesse, and Whip Mastery. At 6th level, he adds Improved Trip and Improved Whip Mastery to the list. At 10th level, he adds Greater Trip and Greater Whip Mastery to the list.

OR

Catch Off-Guard, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, and Weapon Finesse. At 6th level, he adds Improved Disarm and Lunge to the list. At 10th level, he adds Disarming Strike and Improved Critical (rapier) to the list.

I personally like the Lunge or Improved Disarm (Very Swashbuckler/fencer like)

I also like this Style:

Quote:
Agile Maneuvers, Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Feint, and Weapon Finesse. At 6th level, he adds Greater Feint and Quick Dirty Trick to the list. At 10th level, he adds Critical Focus and Disengaging Flourish to the list.

Improved Dirty Trick-> Quick Dirty trick is very nice as it has proven to be one of the stronger Combat maneuvers.

Lastly the idea of picking up Power attack with Ranger styles should not be overlooked as it allows you to use a Str of 7-10 and pumping the extra points into Wisdom or Con for better saves. So really think on this one. Cause:

Quote:
Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, and Shield of Swings. At 6th level, he adds Cleaving Finish and Vital Strike to the list. At 10th level, he adds Death or Glory and Improved Vital Strike to the list.

Cause Power attack-> Cleaving Finish is pretty damn strong and Cleaving Finish is the only cleave feat worth anything in PF.

Grand Lodge

I will agree with you on the points of the Swashbuckler. Though, i don't see it as a fighter that runs into combat- i see it more as a support fighter. the Dodging Panache and Parry/Riposte are two good survivability skills
Getting some Flanking going, and assisting in taking out enemies.

Tis why i'm going for the Freebooter multiclass and the Dirty Fighting combat style. Ally boost + enemy disruption.

And Cayden's style is the one with "Weapon Focus (Rapier)"
I believe Besmara's "faithful" style is the Improved Dirty Fighting emphasized one.

It would be hilarious to take the Besmara's Faithful combat style as the Swashbuckler and Freebooter are technically "pirates"

6 Ranger/5 Swashbuckler if she survives that long... if she gets to Seeker lvl.

Grand Lodge

Thread Necro Time! :D After several months, my Kitsune Swashbuckler/Ranger has hit level 3.
Now, i'm debating between Pommel Strike Deed or Dirty Fighting; with -1 Strength/+3 BaB and combat maneuver will be a difficult endeavor.
Pommel Strike will be good with I don't have a flanking buddy.

Progress chart-
1/Swashbuckler 1- Fencer's Grace
2/S2- X
3/Ranger 1- Pommel Strike deed/Dirty Fighting
4/R2- Combat Reflexes*
5/S3- Gang Up [I'd like to get more Deeds]
6/?

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