Magus SpellStrike + spring attack


Rules Questions


Hi mates,

First of all, sorry about my english, I am trying to improve it, but actually isn't the best one.

We and my playing group have a doubt about how works a magus with spring attack feat and SpellStrike, let me explain one situation.

Marvin, an elf multiclass Rogue 3, Magus 4 have an orc at 10' on combat with Gornuk a Human warrior lvl 5, could Marvin do the following?

1º Standart action --> Cast Shocking Grasp (4D6 dmg)
2º Move action --> lets subdivide the action on 3 sub-parts
2.1. Move 10' to the orc, flanking him.
2.2. Make the free melee attack using SpellStrike + Sneak Attack + Weapon Dmg ( 4D6 Shocking Grasp + 2D6 Sneak attack + Weapon dmg)
2.3 Move 20' on another direction

Let's take the rules:

1º Touching spells, seems like Marvin can cast the spell before move:

"Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll."

2º Spring AttacK, Seems like Marvin can move attack and move again (using the max 30' and another conditionals)

"As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn."

3º Magus SpellStrike, Marvin can use a free melee attack with his weapon instead the normal touch attack when he uses Touch spells

"Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of "touch" from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier."

So, could Marvin do that or no? and why?

Thanks in advanced
Regards


Spring attack is a full round action, so you don't have any action in which to cast a spell.

If you had a previously held charge, or a quickened spell, then you could use spell strike with spring attack.


All clear,

Thanks a lot mate :D


Dave Justus wrote:

Spring attack is a full round action, so you don't have any action in which to cast a spell.

If you had a previously held charge, or a quickened spell, then you could use spell strike with spring attack.

You can get what is in effect is Spring Attack with Spell Strike.

1) Standard action: Cast Shocking Grasp
2) Move to target
3) Deliver Shocking Grasp via Spell Strike as a free action (see rules for free action delivery of touch spell in round cast)
4) Continue to move (free actions can take place in the middle of other actions- drawing ammunition in the middle of a full attack)

Of course since you are not using the Spring Attack feat you will suffer an AOO when you move away from the target.


I don't think that is correct Thorin.

He can't continue to move after making the attack.

He could however cast the spell, move, and deliver it using Spell Strike ending his turn at the position where he attacked.

Continuing his movement would actually require Spring Attack.


There's room for debate.

Touch Spells in Combat wrote:
In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action.
Free Action wrote:
You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally.


Claxon wrote:

I don't think that is correct Thorin.

He can't continue to move after making the attack.

He could however cast the spell, move, and deliver it using Spell Strike ending his turn at the position where he attacked.

Continuing his movement would actually require Spring Attack.

Agree with Claxon.

Touch Spells in Combat wrote:
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.


Avoron wrote:

There's room for debate.

Touch Spells in Combat wrote:
In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action.
Free Action wrote:
You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally.

The very next sentence in "Touch spells in combat" very explicitly spells out how it works and makes it very clear that there is no room for debate.

The Concordance

MeanMutton wrote:
Avoron wrote:

There's room for debate.

Touch Spells in Combat wrote:
In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action.
Free Action wrote:
You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally.
The very next sentence in "Touch spells in combat" very explicitly spells out how it works and makes it very clear that there is no room for debate.

"You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target."

may =\= must

I can choose to make my free action attack anytime during my turn I'm allowed a free action. The sentence gives examples and does not disqualify the normal usage of free actions.


ShieldLawrence wrote:

"You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target."

may =\= must

I can choose to make my free action attack anytime during my turn I'm allowed a free action. The sentence gives examples and does not disqualify the normal usage of free actions.

The entire section is a permissive exception, a whitelist. Reading the sentence in context makes it abundantly clear that, while may =\= must, it's a closed list of possibilities, not a suggestion.

It's phrased the way it is because using "must" or "may only" would imply that you have to move before or after delivering your touch attack.

Liberty's Edge

ShieldLawrence wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
Avoron wrote:

There's room for debate.

Touch Spells in Combat wrote:
In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action.
Free Action wrote:
You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally.
The very next sentence in "Touch spells in combat" very explicitly spells out how it works and makes it very clear that there is no room for debate.

"You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target."

may =\= must

I can choose to make my free action attack anytime during my turn I'm allowed a free action. The sentence gives examples and does not disqualify the normal usage of free actions.

Let's change may with must and see what happen.

"You must take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target."

a) You must take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target,

So you touch the target, then move, then cast the spell .....
Don't work.

or

b) You must take your move ... between casting the spell and touching the target.

Not it say that you must: "cast, move, then touch"
Work better, but the forced move can create some problem.

So this rule can't work with "must". It use may and give the list of the things that you may do. Anything not on the list isn't permitted (beside the cast and touch, without moving, allowed elsewhere).


MeanMutton wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I don't think that is correct Thorin.

He can't continue to move after making the attack.

He could however cast the spell, move, and deliver it using Spell Strike ending his turn at the position where he attacked.

Continuing his movement would actually require Spring Attack.

Agree with Claxon.

Touch Spells in Combat wrote:
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.

In the example given you are taking your move after casting the spell. You simply do not stop moving to take a free action.

Liberty's Edge

thorin001 wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I don't think that is correct Thorin.

He can't continue to move after making the attack.

He could however cast the spell, move, and deliver it using Spell Strike ending his turn at the position where he attacked.

Continuing his movement would actually require Spring Attack.

Agree with Claxon.

Touch Spells in Combat wrote:
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.
In the example given you are taking your move after casting the spell. You simply do not stop moving to take a free action.

You have read what he cite?

You have 3 options:
1) you may move before casting the spell. If we assume that you have used your move action to move and your standard action to cast, you can't move again.
2) cast the spell, touch the target, then move.
3) you move between casting the spell and touching the target. Not before and after touching the target.

Three permissions, none that allow you to move, touch, move in the same round in which you have cast the spell.

The rule is specific and describe exactly what you can do.


I agree that delivering a touch spell - have way through moving can't be done without the spring attack feat.

The fact that you are trying to do it with a weapon attack doesn't make any difference, but it should give you pause as to whether what you are suggesting is reasonable.


Diego Rossi wrote:
thorin001 wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I don't think that is correct Thorin.

He can't continue to move after making the attack.

He could however cast the spell, move, and deliver it using Spell Strike ending his turn at the position where he attacked.

Continuing his movement would actually require Spring Attack.

Agree with Claxon.

Touch Spells in Combat wrote:
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.
In the example given you are taking your move after casting the spell. You simply do not stop moving to take a free action.

You have read what he cite?

You have 3 options:
1) you may move before casting the spell. If we assume that you have used your move action to move and your standard action to cast, you can't move again.
2) cast the spell, touch the target, then move.
3) you move between casting the spell and touching the target. Not before and after touching the target.

Three permissions, none that allow you to move, touch, move in the same round in which you have cast the spell.

The rule is specific and describe exactly what you can do.

I did. If you choose option 3 then you are moving between casting and delivering. There is nothing in that section that says that you must stop moving after delivery. There is nothing there that says that the rules for free actions are changed when you cast a spell.


I've never seen it run that way, effectively giving casters a free spring attack w/ AoO with a touch spell (ignoring magus and spellstrike).

The Concordance

The Sword wrote:

I agree that delivering a touch spell - have way through moving can't be done without the spring attack feat.

The fact that you are trying to do it with a weapon attack doesn't make any difference, but it should give you pause as to whether what you are suggesting is reasonable.

Spring Attack is better, as it allows you to avoid Attacks of Opportunity. It's as reasonable as drawing a new weapon with Quick Draw (free action) during a full attack. A free action touch attack is a free action, and as such still behaves like a free action, including the ability to perform it during another action.

Liberty's Edge

thorin001 wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
thorin001 wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I don't think that is correct Thorin.

He can't continue to move after making the attack.

He could however cast the spell, move, and deliver it using Spell Strike ending his turn at the position where he attacked.

Continuing his movement would actually require Spring Attack.

Agree with Claxon.

Touch Spells in Combat wrote:
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.
In the example given you are taking your move after casting the spell. You simply do not stop moving to take a free action.

You have read what he cite?

You have 3 options:
1) you may move before casting the spell. If we assume that you have used your move action to move and your standard action to cast, you can't move again.
2) cast the spell, touch the target, then move.
3) you move between casting the spell and touching the target. Not before and after touching the target.

Three permissions, none that allow you to move, touch, move in the same round in which you have cast the spell.

The rule is specific and describe exactly what you can do.

I did. If you choose option 3 then you are moving between casting and delivering. There is nothing in that section that says that you must stop moving after delivery. There is nothing there that says that the rules for free actions are changed when you cast a spell.

"You may take your move ..., or between casting the spell and touching the target."

If you call between "nothing" you are reading a different rulebook.


ShieldLawrence wrote:
The Sword wrote:

I agree that delivering a touch spell - have way through moving can't be done without the spring attack feat.

The fact that you are trying to do it with a weapon attack doesn't make any difference, but it should give you pause as to whether what you are suggesting is reasonable.

Spring Attack is better, as it allows you to avoid Attacks of Opportunity. It's as reasonable as drawing a new weapon with Quick Draw (free action) during a full attack. A free action touch attack is a free action, and as such still behaves like a free action, including the ability to perform it during another action.

Except that the same section that allows you the free attack also tells you the permitted timing. As a closed list, not a list of suggestions. You've been told this repeatedly, yet you continue to assert your opinion without countering. Probably because you know you're wrong. No-one is impressed by your deliberate obtuseness.


If you're holding the charge then you can spring attack, otherwise you don't have the actions needed to pull it off.


The free touch attack you get after casting a touch spell has specific conditions on when it can be used, unlike other free actions. In particular it can be used before or after, but not during, a move action.

The Concordance

I don't consider the list of when the movement may happen to be restrictive of other rules text that would allow. A few of you disagree, so I'll approach from another angle.

Dave Justus wrote:
The free touch attack you get after casting a touch spell has specific conditions on when it can be used, unlike other free actions. In particular it can be used before or after, but not during, a move action.

The specific conditions do seem to suggest that they are tagged on restrictions, however the language of the "specific conditions" aren't restrictive per se (must vs. may).

Additionally, the touch attack rules don't say it can't happen during movement.

You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.

If I move 10ft after casting my spell and make my free touch attack, I have taken my move between casting the spell and touching the target. Using a free action does not end my move action, since free actions can happen during other actions., so I should be allowed to continue it and move my remaining speed.

As stated, I do not believe the list of suggestions is restrictive. Even if it is, the process I'm describing still allows you to move after your free action attack.


Dude... if you find a secret method of gaining an ability that would normally take three feats to set up, maybe consider that your DM would have a problem with it (or perhaps your players if you are the DM)

The words you just quoted "you may take your move... between casting the spell and touching the target...". Note its doesnt say 'Part of your move'. 'your move' that means the whole of your move. The sentance sets the bookends of the movement as between casting the spell and touching the target.

Cast spell, move, free attack and touch spell, move is breaking action economy with a class that already plays fast and loose with action economy. It really is just common sense.

The Concordance

The Sword wrote:

Dude... if you find a secret method of gaining an ability that would normally take three feats to set up, maybe consider that your DM would have a problem with it (or perhaps your players if you are the DM)

The words you just quoted "you may take your move... between casting the spell and touching the target...". Note its doesnt say 'Part of your move'. 'your move' that means the whole of your move.

Cast spell, move, free attack and touch spell, move is breaking action economy with a class that already plays fast and loose with action economy. It really is just common sense.

I don't think getting a touch attack during a move action is terribly useful except against foes that can't take AoOs.

Three feats allows you to do it every turn, without magic, and without provoking.

I took my move between casting the spell and touching my target, I then continued my move. It doesn't say "whole of my move" so it actually doesn't mean "whole of my move."

This option is available to any spellcaster with a touch spell, not just the Magus.


If you want to have a special ability aleady covered by the rules (move actions / spring attack) then you need to demonstrate you are given permission to do it... not say 'It doesn't say "whole of my move"' therefore I can do as I like.

If it isn't terribly useful, then why are arguing to get it? Spring attack seems pretty useful to me, particularly when creatures lose the option of full attack action against you next round.

Ultimately you have to get this past a DM. It is always difficult to get a consensus on the forums but the other posts should give you an indication of how most DMs would rule on this,

The Concordance

The Sword wrote:

If you want to have a special ability aleady covered by the rules (move actions / spring attack) then you need to demonstrate you are given permission to do it... not say 'It doesn't say "whole of my move"' therefore I can do as I like.

If it isn't terribly useful, then why are arguing to get it? Spring attack seems pretty useful to me, particularly when creatures lose the option of full attack action against you next round.

Ultimately you have to get this past a DM. It is always difficult to get a consensus on the forums but the other posts should give you an indication of how most DMs would rule on this,

I made a separate post about this, and thorin001 brought into this thread in order to tell the OP he could do what he said in his post, but it wouldn't be a Spring Attack and it would provoke AoOs.

The rules for Free Actions let it happen during a movement. The list of touch attack and move combinations don't restrict you. Even if they did, you can finish your move after the attack because a free action doesn't end move actions. If you disagree with this interpretation of the rules, find my other thread. Arguing here doesn't help the OP.

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