Kineticist VMCing


Homebrew and House Rules


I was thinking about how kineticist multiclassing could work well. While a lot of classes' variant multiclassing rules don't jibe, several do, and it made me wonder, what if kineticist was the secondary instead of primary class for this purpose? Here's what I've come up with:

Quote:


Attuned Element - At 1st level you may choose your character's attuned element. This functions as the elemental focus and burn class features, except as follows: you do not gain a basic utility wild talent as a bonus talent, and you can only take an amount of burn equal to your Con modifier per day. Calculate the amount of burn you may spend per round as a kineticist of your character level, and the determine the amount of damage your kinetic blast deals as a kineticist of your character level -4 (minimum 1), and kinetic blast talents cost 1 burn more than they normally would. You also may not learn the Extra Wild Talent feat.

Wild Talent - At 3rd level, you may choose to learn either an infusion wild talent or a utility wild talent, using your character level -4 to determine what talents you qualify for (minumum 1). You may use this to learn your element's basic utility talent (for example, if you chose Void for attuned element, you may use this to learn basic chaokinesis). You gain an additional wild talent this way at 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th levels, but may only learn utility wild talents this way at 3rd, 11th, and 19th levels.

Defensive Talent - At 7th level, you learn your element's defense wild talent. Use your character level -6 as your kineticist level to determine its effects. You also gain the 1st infusion specialization class feature.

Gather Power - At 11th level you gain the gather power class feature.

Expand Knowledge - At 15th level, you may choose a second element or expand your knowledge of your original element. This functions as the expand element class feature, except you do not gain a bonus wild talent if you choose the same element and do not qualify for you second element's wild talents if you choose a different element. You gain a second simple kinetic blast and any composite blasts as normal. You also gain the 2nd infusion specialization class feature.

Supercharge - At 19th level you gain the supercharge class feature.

There's a lot of limitations here that'll hold back a VMC kinetic blast quite a bit. Since your blasts burn you now, it makes little sense to use them outside of emergency situations where you really need to get some damage off in a pinch against an enemy at range or perhaps if you run out of spell slots and still haven't quite taken the enemy down and need something better than a poke with a dagger to do it. While the damage does scale, it does so slower, giving you a 5d6 simple or a 10d6 composite by 20th that grows fairly slowly (doing 1d6 until you hit 6th then only gaining a damage die every 4 additional levels). You do get a free simple blast by 11th, but only by using gather power, and you won't have access to free composite blasts until 19th (and even then, only using supercharged gather power's full-round charge). Being limited to your Con mod for total burn per day also means you're likely not going to use this for much more than an extra damage option unless you already have a lot of Con, which few classes besides the kineticist use as a primary stat.

However, I'm sure there's tons of things one could do to break this. What would be a good way to balance this out, if it proves too OP?


It is overall way too powerful for a VMC. Each level should be roughly equal to gaining a single feat. Look at Wizard, no spells til 11th level when they gain their first Cantrip, and the only spell they ever learn.

Honestly, they would likely not even get the Kinetic Blast. And if they did... Max damage would be much much much lower (making it practically worthless)

When they come out with a VMC it will likely look like this...

3rd level: Choose an element and get the class skills of that element.

7th level: Kinetic blast as 1st level Kineticist.

11th level: Basic utility wild talent of your element, Kinetic Blast as 3rd level

15th level: Kinetic Blast as 5th level, one utility wild talent of your element (You have no burn, so don't get a talent requiring burn)

19th level: Kinetic Blast as 7th level, a level 1 infusion, ignore any burn requirements for that infusion.

You're replacing 5 feats, not a portion of your own class... What you get will be roughly equal to 5 feats.


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The 1st level ability, if any, should be trivial in terms of power since you are giving up nothing for it -- so a kinetic blast at that level is definitely out of the question. Following the examples of other VMC options, 1st level should be along the lines of "choose an element".

I would probably grant the kinetic blast at 3rd level and perhaps scale it and other abilities to around an equivalent kineticist level of about half character level.


The blast should scale in roughly the same fashion as VMC Rogue sneak attack, since it scales in the same fashion normally, and they're both at-will.

1st: Pick element

3rd: Gain burn, gather power, and the blast of a 1st level Kineticist, except it costs 1 burn to use.

7th: Blast no longer takes 1 burn to use. It increases a step every four levels after 7th.

11th: Gain an infusion wild talent as a Kineticist four levels lower.

15th: Gain your elemental defense as a Kineticist half your level.

19th: Gain a utility wild talent as a Kineticist four levels lower.

Using Rogue and Sorcerer as the main gauges of power.


I would go with a burn-free version.

1st: Pick element. No utility wild talent choices that costs burn can be picked.

3rd: Gain basic utility wild talent from chosen element

7th: Gain kinetic blast that scales as a kineticist four levels lower

11th: Gain utility wild talent as a kineticist four levels lower

15th: Gain defense wild talent as a kineticist four levels lower, cannot invest burn into it

19th: Gain utility wild talent as a kineticist six levels lower


Ooh, I forgot about the basic utility wild talent. That's exactly right for third level.

Amended version of mine:

1st: Pick element.

3rd: Gain the basic utility wild talent for your element.

7th: Gain the basic blast for your wild talent as a first-level Kineticist. Your effective Kineticist level for the blast increases by two for every four levels you gain, to a maximum of 7th effective level at 19th level. You gain the burn class feature.

11th: Gain an infusion wild talent as a Kineticist four levels lower. You can also gather energy.

15th: Gain the elemental defense for your element as a Kineticist half your level.

19th: Gain a utility wild talent as a Kineticist four levels lower.

(I can certainly see where two utility talents would be good, allowing meeting pre-reqs for things like at-will flight or strong telekinesis as "capstones", but I think it's better to give options for longer range attacks or things like trip attempts in order to make the blasts themselves more useful.)


QuidEst wrote:

Ooh, I forgot about the basic utility wild talent. That's exactly right for third level.

That's actually not true. A feat at 3rd level would be once-per-day. :P

Not saying it shouldn't be a basic utility at that level, it probably should, but it is more powerful than any feat. :P

That being said, his goal was obvuiously a focus on the kinetic blast for his VMC, and since a 1d6+1 blast is roughly equal (feat-wise) to the basic utility, that should come first.

Still, based on previous VMCs, I'm betting that class skills gets the level-3 slot. :P


Vmc is pretty useless most of the time. I don't even see the point in a vmc that grants kinetic blast. I mean, yay! I can do less damage than using my bow that I have no feats for! All day long you say? What would I need to attack all day?


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Trogdar wrote:
Vmc is pretty useless most of the time. I don't even see the point in a vmc that grants kinetic blast. I mean, yay! I can do less damage than using my bow that I have no feats for! All day long you say? What would I need to attack all day?

An infinite use touch attack blast is going to be a better back up weapon for a melee fighter than a bow, really.


A basic blast that caps at kineticist seven at level nineteen? No its not.

Edit: I'd be surprised if a fighter couldn't do more damage with throwing knives.


Yeah, it was probably way too powerful now that I think about it.I like QuidEst's second version of it better, although at 11th I might say to add two infusions, limited to a single form and a single substance. But then, the only way you have to reduce burn is gather energy, and even just adding one infusion can improve it significantly. It is kind of a shame that a lot of the really cool form infusions are gated behind extended range, though. I can see some elements being WAY more useful for this than others, though.

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- Aether is gonna be really powerful for anyone to pick up. Telekinetic blast with foe throw is pretty good as it is, but you're also getting that regenerating bubble at 15th, and have the option to suffocate or get spell deflection at 19th, and keep in mind that extended range increases your basic telekinesis' range as well. Of note, this is the only element that won't be able to get a 120 move per turn with extended range/ride the blast, since telekinetic blast is the only one ride the blast can't be used with, but considering how many tricks you have at your fingertips, you'll hardly miss it.

Available Infusions (Telekinetic): Extended Range, Draining, Kinetic Blade, Kinetic Fist, Mobile Blast, Pushing, Bowling, Foe Throw

Available Utility: Skilled Kineticist, Elemental Grip, Kinetic Form, Spark of Life, Kinetic Cover, Kinetic Healer, Telekinetic Finesse, Telekinetic Haul, Self Telekinesis, Telekinetic Invisibility, Touchsite, Telekinetic Maneuvers, Aether Puppet, Force Barrier, Suffocate, Spell Deflection

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- Air loses a good bit of what makes it great by losing out on wings of air and the air's reach/ride the blast combo, but it's still decent. You've still got access to things like celerity, magnetic infusion, and wind manipulator, making it decent for support, and you can choose whether you're going with a physical or energy blast.

Available Infusions (Air): Extended Range, Draining, Kinetic Blade, Kinetic Fist, Mobile Blast, Gusting, Pushing, Torrent

Available Infusions (Electric): Extended Range, Draining, Kinetic Blade, Kinetic Fist, Mobile Blast, Thundering, Magnetic, Torrent

Available Utility: Skilled Kineticist, Elemental Grip, Kinetic Form, Spark of Life, Ride the Blast, Aerial Adaptation, Air Cushion, Air Shroud, Air's Leap, Air's Reach, Voice of the Wind, Aerial Evasion, Celerity, Engulfing Winds, Windsight, Suffocate

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- Earth is actually far more versatile than I expected it to be. It can do the extended range/ride the blast combo like everything besides aether can, but you could also use impale for offensive power, entangling/enduring earth for CC, and jagged flesh for some counter-damage in melee. It also has what I feel is the most useful defense talent of the bunch, giving you stacking DR that can be beefed up if you're not interested in using infusions and would prefer your burn be spent on damage prevention, and while it's lacking in high-level utility talents you can take, the ones it does get are damn useful.

Available Infusions (Earth): Extended Range, Draining, Kinetic Blade, Kinetic Fist, Mobile Blast, Bowling, Pushing, Entangling, Impale

Available Utility: Skilled Kineticist, Elemental Grip, Kinetic Form, Spark of Life, Ride the Blast, Earth Walk, Kinetic Cover, Earth Climb, Jagged Flesh, Tremorsense, Enduring Earth, Stone Sculptor

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- Fire is... eh. I don't find its defense or utility talents all that useful aside from supporting a burning fire blast. It's probably your best option if you really want to endanger enemies coming to strike you by going with flame shield and pumping your burn into your searing flesh, but that seems a rather niche use to me; I'd rather prevent the damage incoming outright than threaten someone with harm if they deal damage to me.

Available Infusions (Fire): Extended Range, Draining, Kinetic Blade, Kinetic Fist, Mobile Blast, Burning, Fan of Flames, Torrent

Available Utility: Skilled Kineticist, Elemental Grip, Kinetic Form, Spark of Life, Ride the Blast, Cold Adaptation, Fire Sculptor, Heat Adaptation, Searing Flame, Firesight, Flame Jet, Smoke Storm, Flame Shield, Trail of Flames

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- Void by far is the least unique one here. A lot of the fun things a void kineticist has to use is later level, outside of VMC's reach. It does have negative energy going for it, but that's more of a thematic thing than anything else, honestly. It's not horrible, it's just that other elements can generally do the same things better. It does have a bit of a niche in combining darkness/eyes of the void, but I'd think by 19th level allies and enemies alike will have plenty of ways to bypass magical darkness.

Available Infusions (Gravity): Extended Range, Draining, Kinetic Blade, Kinetic Fist, Mobile Blast, Pulling, Pushing, Darkness

Available Infusions (Negative): Extended Range, Draining, Kinetic Blade, Kinetic Fist, Mobile Blast, Darkness

Available Utility: Skilled Kineticist, Elemental Grip, Kinetic Form, Spark of Life, Ride the Blast, Void Healer, Eyes of the Void, No Breath, Gravity Control, Suffocate

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- Water, I think, is probably best used by arcane casters, thanks to its defense ability pretty much replacing the mage armor spell, and could be good for characters who use strong armor but can't use shields (like, for example, fighters using a dual-wield or two-handed fighting style). Water blast is lackluster, but entangling infusion makes cold blast decent enough, IMO.

Available Infusions (Water): Extended Range, Draining, Kinetic Blade, Kinetic Fist, Mobile Blast, Pushing, Quenching, Torrent

Available Infusions (Cold): Extended Range, Draining, Kinetic Blade, Kinetic Fist, Mobile Blast, Entangling, Impale

Available Utility: Skilled Kineticist, Elemental Grip, Kinetic Form, Spark of Life, Ride the Blast, Cold Adaptation, Heat Adaptation, Icewalker, Kinetic Cover, Kinetic Healer, Slick, Veil of Mists, Waterdancer, Ice Sculptor, Watersense, Shimmering Mirage, Suffocate

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- Wood has always pretty much been Earth's less-skilled cousin, and this problem's only exacerbated by VMC. It can't do anything with its infusions that earth blast can't, and most of the available utility talents are slightly altered versions of things earth can already do. What it gets over earth is merciful foliage to allow your wood blasts to do nonlethal damage and the ability to shift wood rather than earthen matter. Which... isn't so good for something gained at 19th. It's better to use this if it's just flavor purposes, honestly, otherwise stick to earth if you want physical damage or cold if you want energy.

Available Infusions (Wood): Extended Range, Draining, Kinetic Blade, Kinetic Fist, Mobile Blast, Pushing, Entangling, Impale

Available Utility: Skilled Kineticist, Elemental Grip, Kinetic Form, Spark of Life, Ride the Blast, Kinetic Cover, Roots, Merciful Foliage, Woodland Step, Brachiation, Thorn Flesh, Warp Wood, Greensight, Plant Disguise, Shape Wood, Plant Puppet, Wild Growth, Greentongue


Onyx Tanuki wrote:
Yeah, it was probably way too powerful now that I think about it.I like QuidEst's second version of it better, although at 11th I might say to add two infusions, limited to a single form and a single substance.

Two infusions is worth two feats in a very similar way to how getting two hexes at once would be like two feats.

Maybe make the level 19 talent utility or infusion?

Trogdar wrote:
Vmc is pretty useless most of the time. I don't even see the point in a vmc that grants kinetic blast. I mean, yay! I can do less damage than using my bow that I have no feats for! All day long you say? What would I need to attack all day?

I'm basing the progression off of Rogue VMC sneak attack. That's a little different because it can be applied to other attacks, but it was the most comparable thing I could find. Things without full-BAB or poor proficiencies would be happy to get a decent at-will ranged attack stronger than a crossbow. Half level might be more appropriate, though.

Sphynx wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

Ooh, I forgot about the basic utility wild talent. That's exactly right for third level.

That's actually not true. A feat at 3rd level would be once-per-day. :P

Not saying it shouldn't be a basic utility at that level, it probably should, but it is more powerful than any feat. :P

That being said, his goal was obvuiously a focus on the kinetic blast for his VMC, and since a 1d6+1 blast is roughly equal (feat-wise) to the basic utility, that should come first.

I wasn't looking at being able to purchase it with a feat exactly. The effect is essentially a cantrip. 1/day cantrip is in the realm of a trait, while 3/day is feat (but can be gotten as a trait). And yeah, it's a bit better than that, but nobody takes a feat for a cantrip 3/day. I'd put it under the "worth much less than a familiar" category.

Sphynx wrote:
Still, based on previous VMCs, I'm betting that class skills gets the level-3 slot. :P

This I disagree with. Other VMCs grant scaling bonuses to skills, something that can be used by any class. Granting two class skills is useless to many classes because they already have them as class skills.


QuidEst wrote:
Onyx Tanuki wrote:
Yeah, it was probably way too powerful now that I think about it.I like QuidEst's second version of it better, although at 11th I might say to add two infusions, limited to a single form and a single substance.

Two infusions is worth two feats in a very similar way to how getting two hexes at once would be like two feats.

Maybe make the level 19 talent utility or infusion?

Actually, as I analyzed it above, I'm seeing that giving access to high-level infusions could be dangerous. I mean I wouldn't mind getting 4th level infusions so Wood can get Toxic, Void can get Singularity, Water can get Spray, and Fire can get Flash. But then, probably the big issue with that is that those infusions cost 3 burn, which is something that a VMC - particularly one not putting a huge amount of focus on Con - is going to be hard-pressed to pay for. To do this only means changing the effective kineticist level up one, or simply stating that you can pick one with 4th caster level or lower.

I am for making it where you can choose utility or infusion for one of your talents, but why not make it for 11th instead of 19th, and keep 19th strictly as a CL 7th or lower utility? Things like Cloud, Fragmentation, Deadly Earth, Enervating, Greater Toxic, and Explosion seem like they'd be far too powerful for a VMC option (though, to be fair, a few of those still have other infusions as prerequisites, so it'd require infusions being an option at both levels). Most of the more powerful utility talents require prerequisite talents though. This would allow for flight or pseudo-flight with five of the elements (via Air's Wings of Air, Fire's Greater Flame Jet, Aether's Greater Self Telekinesis, Void's Greater Gravity Control, and to a lesser degree Water's Ice Path), which honestly seems fair at 19th.


Unfortunately, allowing utility talents of 3rd or below is probably too good for the 11th level.
It includes:
At-will flight that effectively requires concentration.
At-will haste with concentration (burn to not concentrate).
At-will sickening smokesticks from fire sources.
At-will telekinesis with concentration (burn to not concentrate).
At-will invisibility (half bonus) that lets you hide from blindsight/blindsense.
At-will tremorsense with concentration (burn to not concentrate).

Seems a little too good, especially the Aether options.

Level minus six (like Oracle) would work, since that's 2nd level utility talents. Even then, at-will telekinesis is still on the table. But really, utility talents are so much better than infusions that I probably wouldn't offer the choice. (Kineticist gets an infusion and damage increase on odd levels, while it's just a utility talent on the evens.)

I do agree that flight is reasonable for the capstone, since that's the sort of thing the others get as theirs, but I'd be careful about what I opened it up to.


Honestly, there's just no way a VMC should get either an infusion or utility talent greater than level 1. Look through the VMCs, not a single class ever gives out spells, which is what this would be equivalent to. I think it's already over generous to allow a level 1 in these things.

Bonus to the class skills, such as the skilled kineticist utility, would be ok
The defense of the element would be ok (no burn, level - X)
Blasts without the benefit of burn would be ok (+1 kin level at every 4th level)
The basic utility wild talent would be ok
And -maybe- a single infusion or utility talent of 1st level, only because there's really nothing else to fit into that 5th feat slot.

Absolutely no way any talent past level 1 should be in the VMC. To do more than that would be to create a hybrid class insteadl. These are feat level powers...


QuidEst wrote:

Unfortunately, allowing utility talents of 3rd or below is probably too good for the 11th level.

It includes:
At-will flight that effectively requires concentration.
At-will haste with concentration (burn to not concentrate).
At-will sickening smokesticks from fire sources.
At-will telekinesis with concentration (burn to not concentrate).
At-will invisibility (half bonus) that lets you hide from blindsight/blindsense.
At-will tremorsense with concentration (burn to not concentrate).

Seems a little too good, especially the Aether options.

Level minus six (like Oracle) would work, since that's 2nd level utility talents. Even then, at-will telekinesis is still on the table. But really, utility talents are so much better than infusions that I probably wouldn't offer the choice. (Kineticist gets an infusion and damage increase on odd levels, while it's just a utility talent on the evens.)

I do agree that flight is reasonable for the capstone, since that's the sort of thing the others get as theirs, but I'd be careful about what I opened it up to.

Thing is the flight for Aether/Fire/Void is a standard action. It's great for out of combat, but you can't really fight and fly unless you've got means to attack with quick and move actions. Also I'm not 100% sure what they mean by "any movement upward costs double" but I figure it means if you move five feet upward it's the equivalent of 10 feet horizontally, so you're still somewhat limited. It turns into actual flight only once you pick up the Greater variant, which in this case only would come at 19th, and only if you gave up your infusion at 11th. Similarly, while Air does have a 3rd level talent for flying, it's gated behind either air's leap or air cushion, so you'd still not be able to get it unless you give up your 11th level infusion and wait until 19th to get it. I do agree though that certain utility talents of 3rd or lower are going to be too good, but I don't see them being that much better than using at-will cantrips or orisons, especially if you allow 3rd party spells. Perhaps reduce the level of the utilities you can pick up at 19th to 5th or 6th level talents? Assume we keep 3rd level at 11th, this would take away as follows:

Aether: Suffocate at 6th, Spell Deflection at 7th
Air: Suffocate and Wind Manipulator at 6th, nothing at 7th
Earth: nothing at 6th, nothing at 7th
Fire: nothing at 6th, nothing at 7th
Void: Suffocate at 6th, nothing at 7th
Water: Ice Path and Suffocate at 6th, nothing at 7th
Wood: Green Tongue at 6th, nothing at 7th
Universal: Ride the Blast at 6th, nothing at 7th

There's honestly no reason not to reduce it to at least 6th level utilities since the only thing lost is spell deflection. 5th level won't lose much for the individual elements, but losing ride the blast is a hell of a blow, as it'll pretty much negate any real reason to take extended range unless we allow infusions at 19th level to be taken (in which case it's a prerequisite to a lot of the more interesting infusion talents). I'd say just make it 6th level.

I do have one possibility to consider, thanks to Sphynx mentioning it. Infusions come with every increase to blast damage except where you pick a non-primary element with expanded element, right? How about if the choice includes this? The damage die for your kinetic blast would increase at 15th (when you gain your element's elemental defense), but it'll only increase at 11th and 19th if you pick an infusion talent at either level, and won't increase if you pick a utility talent? This means if you're taking this for the kinetic blast, you'll get the full 4d6 possible, but at the cost of utility talents, and if you want this for the utility or defense talents, you're only getting a 2d6 blast, which, while better than an at-will damaging cantrip/orison by far, is still going to pale in comparison to what you could do with a decent ranged weapon.

Although I should mention in response to Sphynx, a lot of what I've seen from perusing the VMC options is better than what most feats actually can provide, if only slightly. The cost is that, unless you have a class with a lot of bonus feats like fighter or brawler, you're less likely to be able to get all the feats you want with the class you're using. That's the sacrifice involved here. You're not going to be able to do what you'd normally do as well because you're splitting your attention toward what other classes can do. Yeah, you're going to be getting interesting options, but you aren't necessarily taking the options that'll make you better at what you would ordinarily do. That's kinda what I value in character development though; not necessarily being a god by 20th because you've minmaxed your way there, but being a pretty decent character who does his own thing in a unique an interesting way, even if it's not the absolute most effective way. *shrug* Guess everyone has their own philosophy though.

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