Summoner vs. Leadership: Why is the former considered more broken?

[Ryan Freire]

Nigrescence wrote:

Dekalinder wrote:

D&D can work well also as a game about "hugging unicorns or playing a hippy form of Batman" and I've done it a couple of time myself.

As have I. Not in Pathfinder (It was 2nd AD&D), and not with my current group, but I've hugged a unicorn (at great risk for the attempt) and played a somewhat hippy take on Batman (remember bards can do almost anything, and with style).

Even in my current group which heavily favors combat and such, we don't go murderhobo, at least not for no reason.

My reserve character in a Zeitgeist campaign (gm has us make backup toons of 1 level lower who are easily worked into the party on the fly) is a bounty hunter slayer whose equipped with a merciful sapping sap and took the hog tie the target with a net feat chains.

Prisoners are great sources of information about the layout of dungeons.

[Nigrescence]

Divinitus wrote:

Mind-controlling PCs to FORCE them to adapt to his playstyle? Yeah, he violated the 'don't be a ****' rule first, so his feelings are ultimately irrelevant, as he disregarded everyone else's.

Well, that is a fairly blatant ignoring of the "don't be a dick" unspoken rule.

However, the first time that it happened, you should have clearly said to the player at the table AT THE TIME IT HAPPENED that not only would you allow it (because clearly you did), but that it would have a consequence both on his alignment (if he wasn't already evil, because doing that to someone who is supposed to be a companion and ally is... well, it's not 'good' - even if the effect isn't immediate but as a warning in case he plans to make it a common event for him to do), and a consequence on how the OTHER CHARACTERS react to his action and treat him. Remember that Charm Person lets the person remember everything that happened while they were under the compulsion, as do most compulsion effects. Including the fact that this person just forced you to act against your nature, in a deliberate attempt to exert dominance over you simply because of a disagreement, yet still pretends to be your friend and travel with you.

And after telling him all of that right then and there, I would have very calmly and quietly asked him if he really wanted to do that, and asked if he wanted to change his mind (I would give him a free retcon to avoid being a dick here). After he makes his choice, it's obvious what is to follow.

Yeah, that ain't gonna fly for me. But the problem is YOURS. You allowed it. You let it fester. Good going, DM.

An opportunity to teach everyone at the table more depth to the game as well as the value of consequences and measured actions in approach was wasted and instead you group-lynched someone for it.

When I first joined my group, everyone was an absolute optimizer, combat was everything, and you weren't a wizard unless you threw fireballs 24/7. I quietly went about my business, playing the game the way I always have played it, and kicked ass. A few years later and I'm seeing the guy who mocked me the most for my play style getting giddy to play exactly the way I had been playing when I first joined. We talk excitedly with each other about the cool stuff he can do, and I'm seeing him play more builds with more variance and depth to it. And everyone else seems to have warmed to the play style too.

Be the change you want to see in your group. Don't lead a lynch mob needlessly. Instead, you seemed to have apathetically left a sore to get infected and grow into this writhing pustule which you then felt had to be popped, and then blamed the sore for getting disgusting and then making such a mess which you had to clean up.

Sorry, but it is precisely BECAUSE you are the DM here that I really can't see eye to eye with your view here. I see this from another angle. One in which you have failed your group. And for that, I am sorry.

[Nigrescence]

Ryan Freire wrote:

Prisoners are great sources of information about the layout of dungeons.

[in strained, gritty voice]"Where are the other dragons going?!"[/voice]

[Ryan Freire]

Nigrescence wrote:

Ryan Freire wrote:

Prisoners are great sources of information about the layout of dungeons.

[in strained, gritty voice]"Where are the other dragons going?!"[/voice]

I WISH it was dragons instead of monsters so large they require their own unique combat system.

[Nigrescence]

Ryan Freire wrote:

Nigrescence wrote:

Ryan Freire wrote:

Prisoners are great sources of information about the layout of dungeons.

[in strained, gritty voice]"Where are the other dragons going?!"[/voice]

I WISH it was dragons instead of monsters so large they require their own unique combat system.

I used the word "dragons" because puns are a thing.

[DSXMachina]

Rosc wrote:

DSXMachina wrote:

Because people forget that if you cast PFG/PFE make you immune to natural attacks of summoned creatures.

1) Animals with the fiendish/celestial templates are still neutral

2) Elementals, while only exceptional when their element is a key factor, are serviceable bruisers and also neutral.

PFE: Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by evil summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature.

Summon Monster: Creatures marked with an "*" always have an alignment that matches yours, regardless of their usual alignment.

* is most creatures that are generally neutral, except for elementals.
So I suppose if you're a neutral Summoner, you can summon a fiendish pony, that is in fact of neutral alignment - thus avoid any problem with PFE/PFG

[Qaianna]

DSXMachina wrote:

Rosc wrote:

DSXMachina wrote:

Because people forget that if you cast PFG/PFE make you immune to natural attacks of summoned creatures.

1) Animals with the fiendish/celestial templates are still neutral

2) Elementals, while only exceptional when their element is a key factor, are serviceable bruisers and also neutral.

PFE: Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by evil summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature.

Summon Monster: Creatures marked with an "*" always have an alignment that matches yours, regardless of their usual alignment.

* is most creatures that are generally neutral, except for elementals.
So I suppose if you're a neutral Summoner, you can summon a fiendish pony, that is in fact of neutral alignment - thus avoid any problem with PFE/PFG

Remember, trying to hug the fiendish pony will end your protection against it, even if it would apply.

[Malwing]

I'm going to go along with what a lot of people posted before. When I saw the thread title I was like 'Wut?'. Leadership is way more broken, and since it's one feat you can ban it without any fuss so its the thing that gets readily banned right out the gate. There's ways to make it not broken but requires work which I don't like to do so I generally replace it.

[Rosc]

DSXMachina wrote:

Rosc wrote:

DSXMachina wrote:

Because people forget that if you cast PFG/PFE make you immune to natural attacks of summoned creatures.

1) Animals with the fiendish/celestial templates are still neutral

2) Elementals, while only exceptional when their element is a key factor, are serviceable bruisers and also neutral.

PFE: Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by evil summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature.

Summon Monster: Creatures marked with an "*" always have an alignment that matches yours, regardless of their usual alignment.

* is most creatures that are generally neutral, except for elementals.
So I suppose if you're a neutral Summoner, you can summon a fiendish pony, that is in fact of neutral alignment - thus avoid any problem with PFE/PFG

Right on. You have a good point, there. I rolled my Summoner as Neutral to have access to more creatures, and I suppose I played him for so long I just got used to my Wall of Ponies being Neutral be default.

But yes, the point stands. PFE has many ways to bypass the summon monster protection aspect. At least the possession protection keeps it lasting well past its competing level 1 spells.