Seth Dresari |
Does Pathfinder Society use rules for Encumbrance and Armor Check Penalty? I am asking because these rules tend to cripple a lot of options for potential builds, but based on my experience with organized play, few GMs seem to acknowledge them, which makes me wonder if they are even necessary.
Thanks in advance!
Blakmane |
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This is in the wrong forum - I'll flag it to be moved.
In answer to your question:
Yes, these rules are absolutely used in PFS.
There's an expectation that the player will correctly account for encumbrance and ACP - usually GMs do not audit sheets, although they are well within their rights to if they suspect one might not be applying them properly.
BigNorseWolf |
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Armor check very very much so.
Encumbrance gets more eyeballed than spread sheeted usually.
you can carry cash as coins, weightless gems and or trade good or leave it at home. Not that it matters, if you're stripped naked you're spending 5 pp to get yourself and your stuff back anyway. (body recovery includes your gear)
Gwen Smith |
Encumbrance is usually only an issue at lower levels. Since special material armor is always available, most encumbered characters spring for mithral armor early on. Wands or potions of Ant Haul are cheap and easy, and one you pick up a handy haversack, encumbrance usually disappears.
That said, if a character without a handy haversack seems to be carrying a lot of stuff, I will ask them to check their encumbrance. (Sometimes, the player will say "Oh, I don't know how much stuff weighs," so I'll tell them to get it corrected before the next time they play. So far, I've only had to have that conversation once with any given player.)
Encumbrance on medium mounts is usually more of a problem since a medium saddle weighs the same as a large saddle.
Armor check penalty is usually an issue for medium and heavy armored players. If a full plate wearing character has an Acrobatics bonus higher than 1 or 2, I'll ask them to break that down for me.
A more common issue is players who forget about the reduced speed from medium or heavy armor.
Andrew Christian |
Dorothy Lindman wrote:Encumbrance is usually only an issue at lower levels.Tell that to my level 16 wizard (in PFS). I still have to micromanage encumbrance to stay under light, even with a 10 strength. Even haversacks and other items of the sort have weight associated with them.
Yeah, my level 17 grippli ninja with a 7 strength has the same issue
rknop |
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I had a halfling swashbuckler with strength 5 show up in a game I was GMing. I looked very closely at his equipment, and made clear that he was encumbered. If somebody is going to dump STR that hard on a character that manages to mechanically substitute nearly everything that STR does, I'm going to make sure that the consequences of that dumping happen..... He ended up saying that he would drop everything but armor, sword, and clothes before any combat.
MisterSlanky |
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Here's one for the pedantic rules lawyers among us. And I have done this.
Check and see how many low level halfling/gnome cavaliers have mounts that aren't encumbered. If the answer is, "they're not", somebody is lying, because at that level the dogs, wolves, etc. strength isn't enough to handle the rider, and the rider's equipment.
In fact, if there's anywhere encumbrance is usually ignored in PFS, this is the place. And this is not a statement of it should be ignored, more of a statement of, "bet you don't always think of this one."
BigNorseWolf |
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Dorothy Lindman wrote:Encumbrance is usually only an issue at lower levels.Tell that to my level 16 wizard (in PFS). I still have to micromanage encumbrance to stay under light, even with a 10 strength. Even haversacks and other items of the sort have weight associated with them.
Cast ant haul. It will last you until monday.
BigNorseWolf |
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In fact, if there's anywhere encumbrance is usually ignored in PFS, this is the place. And this is not a statement of it should be ignored, more of a statement of, "bet you don't always think of this one."
Wolf starts with a 13 strength
13 50 lbs. or less
Quadrupeds can carry heavier loads than bipeds can. Multiply the values corresponding to the creature's Strength score from Table: Carrying Capacity by the appropriate modifier, as follows: Fine ×1/4, Diminutive ×1/2, Tiny ×3/4, Small ×1, Medium ×1-1/2, Large ×3, Huge ×6, Gargantuan ×12, Colossal ×24.
so 75 pounds
A halfling tops out at 38 pounds. Their armor and 99% of their other gear only weighs half as much. How many second breakfasts are you expecting your halflings to carry? :)
MisterSlanky |
It's not so hard. You are correct in that your mount can carry 75 pounds.
Military Saddle = 30 pounds
Bit & Bridle = 1 pound
Okay, we have 44 pounds left to go.
Halfling = 30 pounds.
Down to 14 pounds left to go for a suit of armor, weapons, and gear. The lightest suit of armor you're getting at without going mithril isn't even scale (and it's rough equivalents) which clocks in at 15 pounds, one pound more than what you can carry. Trust me, my halfling cavalier and I struggled through this for some time. Most people forget about the saddle and the weight of their armor. Full plate eats up a whole 25 pounds of that limit, and the shield adds up another 7.5. Weapons (assuming you're geared out for a few options) can easily add another 10 pounds (especially with a lance). And that doesn't even talk about hemp rope and the like.
MisterSlanky |
MisterSlanky wrote:FTFYIt's not so hard. You are correct in that your mount can carry 75 pounds.
Large Military Saddle = 30 pounds
Large Bit & Bridle = 1 pound
While I agree it states that for barding, I'm curious (and I really mean this) where in the rules it says that for saddles. Mount rules are lackluster at best. Even at half weight, it's still not enough for your own heavy armor, let alone barding on your mount, so the basic problem still stands.
FLite Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento |
That is pretty much what I did with Gormheir.
Since your mount can double move and you still get a move action and a standard, you are still miles ahead on action economy.
If you really, absolutely have to be the fastest thing on the field, just bite the bullet, take the +5 DC, and ride bareback.
And far from ignoring my mount's encumbrance, I had a detailed spread sheet that showed encumbrance with and without rider.
My mage doesn't have to worry much about encumbrance, mostly because he has been medium encumbered since 4th level and there is nothing he can do about it. :)
Jeff Merola |
The Fox wrote:While I agree it states that for barding, I'm curious (and I really mean this) where in the rules it says that for saddles. Mount rules are lackluster at best. Even at half weight, it's still not enough for your own heavy armor, let alone barding on your mount, so the basic problem still stands.MisterSlanky wrote:FTFYIt's not so hard. You are correct in that your mount can carry 75 pounds.
Large Military Saddle = 30 pounds
Large Bit & Bridle = 1 pound
I've looked into it before and as far as I can tell saddles only have one weight.
As for the topic at hand, until my Psychic could afford muleback cords he was walking around within a pound or so from max encumberance. Not because I dumped his strength, but because full plate and tower shields are heavy.
Percy Footman |
That is pretty much what I did with Gormheir.
Since your mount can double move and you still get a move action and a standard, you are still miles ahead on action economy.
If you really, absolutely have to be the fastest thing on the field, just bite the bullet, take the +5 DC, and ride bareback.
And far from ignoring my mount's encumbrance, I had a detailed spread sheet that showed encumbrance with and without rider.
My mage doesn't have to worry much about encumbrance, mostly because he has been medium encumbered since 4th level and there is nothing he can do about it. :)
just remember that "archery" would have a negative to shooting from a mount that double moves, as well as concentration checks for casting spells if you are on a mount that double moves...
and shots would take place half-way thru the move (it's an advantage sometimes - it means the "shot" takes place in the middle of the move, so move forward, shoot, move back... stay out of charge reach, but be in short range for the shot)
Fromper |
My mage doesn't have to worry much about encumbrance, mostly because he has been medium encumbered since 4th level and there is nothing he can do about it. :)
My sylph sky druid has been that way from level 1. Being casting focused, I dumped her strength, so she's very wizard-like that way. Even though the sky druid archetype is only proficient with light armor, not medium like most druids, she's still medium encumbered in light armor and a heavy wooden shield, even with special materials getting rid of the armor check penalties.
So I gave her the alternate racial trait that boosts her base speed by 5, and carry around a couple of scrolls of Ant Haul for when I know we're going into combat, to boost her from 25 to 35 speed. That'll probably become a wand some day, but she's only level 3, so she doesn't have a ton of cash, and I'm currently saving up my prestige in case I ever need a Raise Dead and body recovery.
andreww |
My heavens oracle was encumbered both with gear and medium armor for many levels. Finally, around level 9, she got mithral armor and a heavyload belt so that she can move 30ft again.
(She even got an extend metamagic rod so that she could heal people she couldn't get to....)
My Heavens Oracle wears full plate with a tower shield, neither of which he is proficient with. Ant Haul keeps him at medium encumbrance and he has finally hit level 8 so Air Walk means low walls and shallow streams are no longer dangerous obstacles to him.
Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
kinevon |
My heavens oracle was encumbered both with gear and medium armor for many levels. Finally, around level 9, she got mithral armor and a heavyload belt so that she can move 30ft again.
(She even got an extend metamagic rod so that she could heal people she couldn't get to....)
I am guessing you mean reach instead of extend for the metamagic rod.
Reach extends range on spells.
Extend extends duration on spells.
Drahliana Moonrunner |
My heavens oracle was encumbered both with gear and medium armor for many levels. Finally, around level 9, she got mithral armor and a heavyload belt so that she can move 30ft again.
(She even got an extend metamagic rod so that she could heal people she couldn't get to....)
I presume you mean a reach rod. Extend only doubles duration of a spell, not it's reach.
Muser |
Some ninjas do it from behind...time zones!
We had a low-strentgh cleric in Serpent's Skull and his ant haul ran out just when we found the damn city. Imagine finding El Dorado and wasting hours to lift your collegue upon its walls. It was like watching an Indiana Jones film and midway through a montage the orchestra takes a break and you get to hear Harrison Ford grunting and cursing for 10 minutes.
Wei Ji the Learner |
Some ninjas do it from behind...time zones!
We had a low-strentgh cleric in Serpent's Skull and his ant haul ran out just when we found the damn city. Imagine finding El Dorado and wasting hours to lift your collegue upon its walls. It was like watching an Indiana Jones film and midway through a montage the orchestra takes a break and you get to hear Harrison Ford grunting and cursing for 10 minutes.
Dun da dun dun... da da dun..... "For the love of Christ, Pete, lose some weight. I'm not exactly getting any younger here. Someone give me a *huff* *puff* hand... here..."
Gwen Smith |
Dorothy Lindman wrote:Encumbrance is usually only an issue at lower levels.Tell that to my level 16 wizard (in PFS). I still have to micromanage encumbrance to stay under light, even with a 10 strength. Even haversacks and other items of the sort have weight associated with them.
See, that's what the word "usually" means...
And yeah, what BNW said: Ant Haul. Or floating disk to carry your stuff and follow you around. You could fix it if you wanted to.
My full plate wearing strength monstrosity is only 10 lbs under her light limit just from the ridiculous selection of weapons she carries (no bow, just a lot of throwing hammers...). She carries two bags of holding (minor and regular) and a handy haversack to avoid encumbrance, what with the farrier's anvil, smithing tools, portable bridge, folding pole, collapsible trampoline, folding ladder...
Streamwalker |
My full plate wearing strength monstrosity is only 10 lbs under her light limit just from the ridiculous selection of weapons she carries (no bow, just a lot of throwing hammers...). She carries two bags of holding (minor and regular) and a handy haversack to avoid encumbrance, what with the farrier's anvil, smithing tools, portable bridge, folding pole, collapsible trampoline, folding ladder...
Why would you want to stay in light load if you're wearing full plate?
Fromper |
rknop wrote:...does she have a firetruck? Because I would carry a firetruck too.Oooh! What book is firetruck in?
Probably Ultimate Equipment. That book has EVERYTHING. One of these days, I'll get around to actually reading it cover to cover. But then, I keep saying the same thing about the Core Rulebook, and I never did finish reading that one.
nosig |
Dorothy Lindman wrote:Probably Ultimate Equipment. That book has EVERYTHING. One of these days, I'll get around to actually reading it cover to cover. But then, I keep saying the same thing about the Core Rulebook, and I never did finish reading that one.rknop wrote:...does she have a firetruck? Because I would carry a firetruck too.Oooh! What book is firetruck in?
Nah, it'll be the Adventurers Armory, that one is full of the strangest stuff...
Gwen Smith |
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Dorothy Lindman wrote:My full plate wearing strength monstrosity is only 10 lbs under her light limit just from the ridiculous selection of weapons she carries (no bow, just a lot of throwing hammers...). She carries two bags of holding (minor and regular) and a handy haversack to avoid encumbrance, what with the farrier's anvil, smithing tools, portable bridge, folding pole, collapsible trampoline, folding ladder...Why would you want to stay in light load if you're wearing full plate?
Armor training. I move at full speed. (Yes, I actually have a plain vanilla fighter with no archetype.)
Fromper |
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Streamwalker wrote:Armor training. I move at full speed. (Yes, I actually have a plain vanilla fighter with no archetype.)Dorothy Lindman wrote:My full plate wearing strength monstrosity is only 10 lbs under her light limit just from the ridiculous selection of weapons she carries (no bow, just a lot of throwing hammers...). She carries two bags of holding (minor and regular) and a handy haversack to avoid encumbrance, what with the farrier's anvil, smithing tools, portable bridge, folding pole, collapsible trampoline, folding ladder...Why would you want to stay in light load if you're wearing full plate?
I have one of those, too. I was inspired to make him specifically because of all the comments on the forums about how bad vanilla fighters are. I challenged myself to come up with a fun and interesting way to use all those bonus feats to do stuff that I wouldn't be able to do in another class. I haven't gotten very far with him yet, but he's a fun character, and definitely useful in any party.
Cao Phen |
rknop wrote:My Heavens Oracle wears full plate with a tower shield, neither of which he is proficient with. Ant Haul keeps him at medium encumbrance and he has finally hit level 8 so Air Walk means low walls and shallow streams are no longer dangerous obstacles to him.My heavens oracle was encumbered both with gear and medium armor for many levels. Finally, around level 9, she got mithral armor and a heavyload belt so that she can move 30ft again.
(She even got an extend metamagic rod so that she could heal people she couldn't get to....)
Unless you changed your Initiative modifier from Dexterity to Charisma, you get a Penalty to initiative because of nonproficency.
A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor's (and/or shield's) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all dexterity- and strength-based ability and skill checks. the penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for shields.
With the full plate (-6) and tower shield (-10), it is a -16 to all Initiative checks.
Jeff Merola |
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Armor Check Penalty: Any armor heavier than leather, as well as any shield, applies an armor check penalty to all Dexterity- and Strength-based skill checks. A character's encumbrance may also incur an armor check penalty.
I was wondering why i'd never seen an armor check penalty to init. :)
Er, Cao Phen is right. Page 150 is what he quoted from, and does indeed state both ability and skill checks if you're not proficient. Initiative is a dexterity based ability check.