So I'm playing in a Wraith of the Righteous campaign.
I'm playing the party Wizard, I'm super excited for to do it.
I plan to play as a Tiefling. Also as a Control Wizard with some summoning.My stats atm.
Tiefling(Daemon-Spawn)
Str: 7
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 19
Wis: 10
Cha: 14Any advice on my stats would be appreciated. Also what 1st level feat should I take.
At 1st level, you won't need anything beyond an Intelligence score of 12, for the bonus spell and so that you'll be able to cast 2nd level spells before your attribute bump at 4th level... but obviously you're going to need much more than that as you go. A score of 19 should definitely do the job, because when you bump it to 20 at 4th level, you'll get another bonus 1st level spell.
Wrath of the Righteous is a wild ride, so buckle in - and find out if your GM is going to use the Mythic rules as that adds a good deal of complexity when it comes to planning out your character.
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There are some very good guides to wizards available at the Pathfinder Guides Guide site.
In general, you want as high an intelligence as possible for a wizard, since that determines not only the number of spells, but also the save DC and hence the likelihood that your spell will have any effect at all. Few things are as annoying as casting a potentially encounter-ending spell like color spray only to have everyone shrug it off, and you realize that a) not only have you wasted your action for that turn, but b) you're also also in melee range of something big and toothy with three times your hit points.
My go-to feat for a first level wizard is Improved Initiative, especially for a controller. The faster you can get a spell off, the more likely you are to be able to catch the bad guys in a group. As a secondary benefit, you're less likely to have an overeager barbarian charge into the middle of your web spell (or whatever) and neutralize himself.... and also less likely to have someone else's overeager barbarian charge into your teeth and eat them.
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Prehensile tail is worth having, even if you only use it to hold a 2nd wand or rod in.
Traits would depend on your final build eg if you intend to get certain feats.
Your stats are fine. I personally would avoid having a 7 in strength, because it's embarrassing to need someone else carrying my backpack, but it's not important.
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So, straight up, some people out there are going to say that any wizard who doesn't start with 20 int is useless (and that you need to put all level-up points into int, buy a +5 stat book, a +6 headband, and save up for wishing your int up). This is not true, but that is what some people will tell you. It really depends on what you want to do with your wizard.
If you are looking to be a mind controller/invoker/illusionist (something where people have to make saves against your spells), having a high int is good because you want to pump those save DCs. Other builds like support wizards (transmuters mostly) don't need it as much because they don't need save DCs. High int nets them a few extra spells per day, but in general, as long as you have 19 int at level 17 (for those 9th level spells) you are good.
As 1st level wizard your intelligence score MUST be 20.
Any reason because you are a Daemon-Spawn Tiefling and you have such an high charisma?
I will go for a standard Tiefling (+2 Dex and Int, -2 Cha) with the following stats (20 score points if I'm not wrong):
Str: 7
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 20
Wis: 11
Cha: 5
Even if you are a support wizard more intelligence means more daily spells.
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As 1st level wizard your intelligence score MUST be 20.
Any reason because you are a Daemon-Spawn Tiefling and you have such an high charisma?
I will go for a standard Tiefling (+2 Dex and Int, -2 Cha) with the following stats (20 score points if I'm not wrong):
Str: 7
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 20
Wis: 11
Cha: 5Even if you are a support wizard more intelligence means more daily spells.
Ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case!
Some people out there are going to say that any wizard who doesn't start with 20 int is not useless. This is not true.
But if you want to be a character with some spells that will help you doing something else, a lower score is perfectly reasonable.
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Wizards are generally considered the most powerful class in the game. So powerful that they are the poster child for the caster martial disparity, which many people blame for their games falling apart at higher levels.
Wizards don't need a very high Int score. There are many incredibility powerful options that don't involve saves, bonus spells are like icing on a cake made of icing, and you've already got crazy skills.
If you want to be the most powerful PC, and blow apart game balance, sure go for the 18,19, or 20. However, if you want to be part of a balanced team, your fine with anything 14 or above. You will still be the most powerful party member, but at least your fellow players will have a chance to participate in encounters rather then watching you solo most of the game.
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Typically strength and charisma are dump stats, along with wisdom. It should be covered by your teammates You should have an okay dexterity and constitution since you can't wear armor. Warning, 1rst level wizard have trouble pulling their weight. They get really good at around mid level. Just be prepared to be overshadowed by a barbarian.
Don't listen to comments about game balance. If you want to be a wizard, don't cripple yourself. If you want to find balance just don't dominate every combat. Start off with a useful bf control and then cast as needed (or throw level 1 or cantrips around until your party finishes them off. Alternatively play a different class. But playing a wizard with 12 INT is poor advice.
totally agree!
I really like that you're going for a Wizard with CHA, it's in no way optimal, but I like it.
I find it optimal if you want to go for the planar binding route, the diabolist PrC or the Heldritch Eritage chain feat.
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Rub-Eta beat me to it. If you have a 19, you may as well have an 18. The extra Con or Dex will benefit you more in the short term, and not much less in the long run, as that +1 Int, especially with Mythic stat and DC boosts coming into play.
Especially if you plan to be a buffer/controller or summoner (arguably the two strongest ways to play a Wizard), since that usually doesn't involve save DCs at all, or not often.
If you want to be a mindf!@+er (Enchantment or Illusion based) or Evoker/Offensive Transmuter/Necromancy debuffer, dropping something else to nab a 20 may be worth it though.
But, you said control/summoning, so an 18 is perfectly fine. You could probably even get away with a 16 with some finagling, but I don't really recommend it.
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Your stats are fine, but of course you could optimize. The extra spell per day at level one that you get from 20 int is pretty valuable, and helps pulling your weight until higher levels. If you were starting at level five or so starting with that 20 would be less important I wouldn't worry about getting your con over 12, since the toughness feat is an effective +2 to con (and is even better at first level).
A suggestion if you want to be a face character, which may be with that 14 cha:
Dump cha, take as high an int as you can, take skill focus linguistics and Orator. This will make you better than a face sorcerer or bard. For further optimization of this side be a human with the focused study alternate racial trait.
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My last Sorcerer started with a Charisma of 17. I found that adequate for the campaign (which had a fairly low level of optimization in general). To do well with a lower caster stat, if you're not just a buffer / summoner, you need a sense of what enemy saving throws are likely to be - what types of creature have bad Reflex saves, or bad Will saves, and make sure you have spells prepared for the various situations.
A 20 is always nice, but not required. I have built out some other options that I would recommend for PB. I think 2nd is probably best but 3rd is ok.
Tiefling(Daemon-Spawn)
Assuming 20 PB and that you want the charisma.
Str: 10
Dex: 8 (Base) + 2 (Racial) = 10 Starting Cost: -2
Con: 14 (Base) = 14 Starting Cost: 5
Int: 16 (Base) + 2 (Racial) = 18 Starting Cost: 10
Wis: 12 (Base) - 2 (Racial) = 10 Starting Cost: 2
Cha: 14 (Base) = 14 Starting Cost:5
20 PB without the charisma
Str: 10
Dex: 14 (Base) + 2 (Racial) = 16 Starting Cost: 5
Con: 14 (Base) = 14 Starting Cost: 5
Int: 16 (Base) + 2 (Racial) = 18 Starting Cost: 10
Wis: 12 (Base) - 2 (Racial) = 10 Starting Cost: 2
Cha: 8 (Base) = 8 Starting Cost:-2
20 PB without the charisma and a 20 Int
Str: 8 (Base) = 8 Starting Cost:-2
Dex: 12 (Base) + 2 (Racial) = 14 Starting Cost: 2
Con: 14 (Base) = 14 Starting Cost: 5
Int: 18 (Base) + 2 (Racial) = 20 Starting Cost: 17
Wis: 12 (Base) - 2 (Racial) = 10 Starting Cost: 2
Cha: 7 (Base) = 7 Starting Cost:-4
20 PB with the charisma and a 20 Int
Str: 7 (Base) = 7 Starting Cost:-4
Dex: 10 (Base) + 2 (Racial) = 12 Starting Cost: 0
Con: 10 (Base) = 10 Starting Cost: 0
Int: 18 (Base) + 2 (Racial) = 20 Starting Cost: 17
Wis: 12 (Base) - 2 (Racial) = 10 Starting Cost: 2
Cha: 14 (Base) = 14 Starting Cost:5
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If I play a wizard I start with at least 18 int after racials, which is a fine starting point and allows you to invest the other points in useful things like dex (AC and reflex saves) con (hp and fort saves) and wis (will saves and useful stuff like perception).
But unfortunately what some posters above stated is true, Wizard is as SAD as a class can be. Play with 15 point buy characters and you can still start with int 20 by dumping str and cha, and have decent con and dex anyway.
That said if you want your wizard to have good social skills (and no, mass charm on everyone is not an example of having good social skills) starting with good cha isn't "wrong". While starting with an int 12 wizard would be questionable, you should not feel compelled to maximize int because someone wrote in a forum that's the only way to play a wizard. That's simply not true and playing the character you envisioned is more important than playing the most eficent character possible.
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As others have said, 20 int is nice if you need high DCs, but 18 is fine and makes you more versatile.
Since you mentioned summoning, Academae Graduate is a feat that can ONLY be taken at first level. Standard action summons are very powerful, and fatigued isn't that bad for a wizard if you fail the save. Carry a few potions of lesser restoration (and maybe Invigorate) for after the fight.
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Not to mention the fact that optimized wizards rarely pay full price for their wish spells - efreeti binding is an option from 9th level on.So, straight up, some people out there are going to say that any wizard who doesn't start with 20 int is useless (and that you need to put all level-up points into int, buy a +5 stat book, a +6 headband, and save up for wishing your int up). This is not true...Of course it isn't true. Wish spells and a +5 book are both inherent, so they won't stack.
My friend tried to pull that trick. For most of the campaign he talked about doing it, and I told him not to do it, just to maintain party balance if nothing else. Well, of course he did it (because complaining about how easy and stupid broken it was wasn't going to stop him from being a god, of course.) He got away with it once, and the Effriti told him not to do it again. He did it again, of course. Then we go ambushed by about 2 dozen of his Effriti buddies that didn't like our wizard using magic to mess with their freind's soul.
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As others have said, 20 int is nice if you need high DCs, but 18 is fine and makes you more versatile.
Since you mentioned summoning, Academae Graduate is a feat that can ONLY be taken at first level. Standard action summons are very powerful, and fatigued isn't that bad for a wizard if you fail the save. Carry a few potions of lesser restoration (and maybe Invigorate) for after the fight.
Technical Aside:
Are you sure it can only be taken at 1st level? Generally level requirements are inclusive. So if a feat has "4th level fighter" as a prerequisite, a 7th level fighter still meets the prerequisite. The prerequisite for Academae Graduate is "specialist wizard level 1st" and I don't see any special language stating that this is not inclusive.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you have an 18-20 post racial you are fine. Anything less and you are sacrificing major class features for scores that are irrelevant to what your class does. Going lower than 18-20 means lower DCs, lower DCs means your spells don't work to full effectiveness or at all. You lose out on spells, even 1 less spell can mean you don't have the encounter winning spell ready, or don't have the luxury of open slots, or don't have as many all day buffs available. These are mission critical failures as a wizard.
Now some of the advice about building a lower powered wizard is true, you don't have to have a good int score to play the iconic high int class after all, its just not a good idea mechanically speaking. The advice for an AP, which often contains higher powered encounters, is to build for efficient combat capable characters. The time for rp and soft scores is usually more limited than the large number of combats. Wrath of the Righteous is a combat AP dialed up to 11. The saves of the enemies are going to be high, SR is going to be common so some spells might fail (meaning you might need to cast more often).
The other scores that might be useful? Isn't that why you are in a party? Let somebody else get the spotlight for being the damage dealer, the face, skilled class, or buffer. The wizards job is to have the right spell at the right time to ensure victory. Lower scores means your spells might not work, or you might not even have the spell at all. Heck, with the knowledge secondary role wizards have, you might not figure out what you are fighting in time.
Now if you want to play a less overpowered arcane spell user that has more "balance" the bard is over there, and he is pretty cool too.
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I'd go with 18 (16 + 2 racial). Raising it further costs waaaaay too much. Unless you're using something like 30 point buy, you're better off raising your Dex and Con a bit more.
So I'm playing in a Wraith of the Righteous campaign.
I'm playing the party Wizard, I'm super excited for to do it.
I plan to play as a Tiefling. Also as a Control Wizard with some summoning.My stats atm.
Tiefling(Daemon-Spawn)
Str: 7
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 19
Wis: 10
Cha: 14Any advice on my stats would be appreciated. Also what 1st level feat should I take.
Note: If you are playing Mythic Rules, be a wizard specialist.
There's a Mythic Option that removes your off-school penalty. There is no such option to 'add something in' for Universalists.
==Aelryinth
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At least Intelligence 15, and ideally, as high as you can practically go. Some hit points and Dex are nice, certainly worth considering some tradeoffs. Int 19 is definitely okay.
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As others have said, 20 int is nice if you need high DCs, but 18 is fine and makes you more versatile.
Since you mentioned summoning, Academae Graduate is a feat that can ONLY be taken at first level. Standard action summons are very powerful, and fatigued isn't that bad for a wizard if you fail the save. Carry a few potions of lesser restoration (and maybe Invigorate) for after the fight.
Technical Aside:
Are you sure it can only be taken at 1st level? Generally level requirements are inclusive. So if a feat has "4th level fighter" as a prerequisite, a 7th level fighter still meets the prerequisite. The prerequisite for Academae Graduate is "specialist wizard level 1st" and I don't see any special language stating that this is not inclusive.
Though it does/may (depending on the GM) require graduating from the Academae in Korvosa, which is easier to work into backstory at first than later.
Even with a low point buy, you want at least a 17 in intelligence. The higher the better unless you are doing something unusual, like multiclassing into Fighter to get into Eldritch Knight or Arcane Archer PRC, or using transmutation to turn yourself into a murderbeast.
@Paulicus
You could still graduate as part of your backstory and take the feat later. It could be a belated graduation present for yourself. ;)
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OTOH, WotR is also the Mythic AP and I believe widely considered unbalanced in the easy direction once the Mythic stuff kicks in - largely because Mythic isn't well balanced.Now some of the advice about building a lower powered wizard is true, you don't have to have a good int score to play the iconic high int class after all, its just not a good idea mechanically speaking. The advice for an AP, which often contains higher powered encounters, is to build for efficient combat capable characters. The time for rp and soft scores is usually more limited than the large number of combats. Wrath of the Righteous is a combat AP dialed up to 11. The saves of the enemies are going to be high, SR is going to be common so some spells might fail (meaning you might need to cast more often).
Your Int score can get stupidly absurdly high in Wrath, thanks to Mythic and other things. It actually makes sense to build a more balanced.. and more survivable wizard for that AP so you can be around when the good stuff comes in. I ran an Elf Wizard/Riftwarden in that AP. With the feats and mythic feats combined with her Elf bonus, she almost laughed at the idea of the party's enemies having spell resistance. The power level of that AP gives you room for taking some choices that may not be as cookie-cutter as Charop suggested builds, but you can have a ton of fun with them.
I would strongly argue a 20 int to start with if you want a control wizard. Now the 19 advocates will fail to mention at 8 your second stat bump can go into int as well for a further increase.
That extra 1 dc from 1-3 and 8 up matter. Also the extra skills points from those levels are nice. Also you get more spells. Win, win win.
Now you mix in a rod of persistence and that extra +1 become a much larger advantage for resisting the saves. Because if they make the save your attack is worthless most of the time.
I would also dump cha. Your plus will matter little if you do not focus on it. Let others be the face. A wizard needs dex, int, and con. The rest are not as needed.
Academae graduate is solid. I am not a fan of toughness.
since a wizard is SO dependent on int. Why not have it the best you can.
I also do not understand the damon spawn beyond storyline. Death knell will not be used as much as darkness. Dropping darkness on things without darkvision is a giant kick in the nuts.
Now this is your character so build it how you want, but I would strongly suggest the 20 starting int. Then your stat bumps go into it. This also makes that extra spell a higher level spell so it scales with you. having a 26+ int at level 8 is pretty awesome.
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So while I'm not new to pathfinder. I have never seen this argument where you NEED 20 Int, I don't think that this is true. whats the difference 1 extra spell and slightly higher DCs. Doesn't seem SUPER worth it to me.
The 14 cha is to help with social skills at early levels, may lower it to 12 Cha with my stats now looking like this.
There's no NEED to have INT at 20 - but it's also not a bad idea by any stretch and is definitely preferrable to higher CHA.
Think of it this way.
- As a summoner you will likely be a conjuration specialist. Conjuration has a lot of very useful spells that use saves (glitterdust, stinking cloud, create pit etc) so the extra DC isn't wasted
- A +1 to spell DCs is worth about a feat (Spell focus) - except a universal +1 is worth a bit more than spell focus which applies only to one school. There's also the +1 to Skills and the extra spell, so you could even argue the +1 INT modifier is worth about two feats.
- A +1 to +3 increase to a social skill (depending on how hard you dump CHA) can be more than covered by clever wordplay, bruising intellect or another trait that grants as class skill. A trait is about half a feat (you get two from the extra traits feat).
Therefore, if you are talking purely about whether the extra INT is 'worth it', you can see that in terms of how much build resources each are worth, the extra INT is worth more than a single feat (indeed probably about two feats) while the extra bonus to social skills is worth about half a feat to a feat. In the long run you are better off taking the extra INT and then using a trait to pick up clever wordplay or bruising intellect. This even synergises because the extra INT will then in turn boost your social skill!
The extra INT is definitely 'worth it' over extra CHA, which unless you are an enchanter or plan on using planar binding a lot, is mostly worthless. In terms of your character concept, taking a social trait to move a skill to intelligence can still give you a 'charismatic wizard' archetype, so there's not really a character reason to pump CHA.
Of course, it is always absolutely your choice and having one less INT is in no way going to cripple you by any metric, so the decision is mostly arbitrary. However, the term 'should' in your title implies you are interested in optimisation: in which case, a wizard 'should' have an INT as high as he can comfortably make it. You can comfortably achieve 20 with your build.
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Mechanically, INT is more useful, but an 18 will not hurt you if you want to play a more rounded character, or if it fits the story you've written (especially with mythic).
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Actually, the most important consideration is probably the type of group you play with, and the types of games you usually play.
Are the other players hardcore optimizers, or not? Does the GM tend to run harsh, difficult games, or is the tone more casual and friendly?
The best groups are usually those with similar levels of optimization and min-maxing. You should try to match your group so you don't outshine everyone, or fall behind.
Mechanically, INT is more useful, but an 18 will not hurt you if you want to play a more rounded character, or if it fits the story you've written (especially with mythic).
Well i think this is a poor way to describe it. I would say having an 18 int will only hurt you a little. And is easy to make up for.
But you are absolutely correct on matching the rest of the players power level.
Then again if you choose yoru spells right. Now one in your party will feel outshined when you grease the bad guys weapon and make him worthless.
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I'd describe it more as "20 INT will help as a nice boost that you probably don't absolutely need." Though at this point it's probably just an issue of semantics and relative expectations. ;)
I'd describe it more as "20 INT will help as a nice boost that you probably don't absolutely need." Though at this point it's probably just an issue of semantics and relative expectations. ;)
I think it's actually harmful due to its ridiculous cost, though. Unless you have really high point buy or something, of course.
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Also a fair point.
I usually just shoot for 18 myself. Kinda sucks if you're not playing a race with the right stat boost though.
Also a fair point.
I usually just shoot for 18 myself. Kinda sucks if you're not playing a race with the right stat boost though.
Indeed... When that's the case, I tend to go for a 17... It's still very costly, though.
That Int 20 might be worth it in games that start at high levels, since the lower Dex/Con can be compensated with gear and high level spells. I'd stick with the 18, though... :P
Also a fair point.
I usually just shoot for 18 myself. Kinda sucks if you're not playing a race with the right stat boost though.
Indeed... When that's the case, I tend to go for a 17... It's still very costly, though.
That Int 20 might be worth it in games that start at high levels, since the lower Dex/Con can be compensated with gear and high level spells. I'd stick with the 18, though... :P
I disagree. I find positioning and knowing your limitations is more than makes up for the difference.
How much I use that +1 int modifier to the +1.5 dex or con is pretty huge in favor of the int.
The reason wizards can have a 20, is because unlike monks they do not need every stat. I would never suggest a straight bard or inquistor to have a 20 stat.
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I can't claim to be an expert, but I would be inclined to leaving the Charisma in, because then you have the option to get a bit of face skill proficiency AND Use Magic Device out of it, particularly if you go with Dangerously Curious, which makes UMD a class skill. Pragmatic Activator, of course, would be the way to go for somebody who dumps charisma, but it doesn't give you the skill in class, so your Intelligence modifier needs to be 3 higher than your Charisma modifier to break even with this compared to Dangerously Curious -- and again, actually having the decent Charisma score opens up other uses without needing to spend another trait (or more expensive, a whole feat) to convert Charisma skills over to Intelligence. Of course, if you are not building a Thassilonian (Sin Magic) Specialist (which completely prohibits 2 whole Arcane Schools instead of just making them Opposition Schools) like I was when researching this, UMD will be less important to you.
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I can't claim to be an expert, but I would be inclined to leaving the Charisma in, because then you have the option to get a bit of face skill proficiency AND Use Magic Device out of it, particularly if you go with Dangerously Curious, which makes UMD a class skill. Pragmatic Activator, of course, would be the way to go for somebody who dumps charisma, but it doesn't give you the skill in class, so your Intelligence modifier needs to be 3 higher than your Charisma modifier to break even with this compared to Dangerously Curious -- and again, actually having the decent Charisma score opens up other uses without needing to spend another trait (or more expensive, a whole feat) to convert Charisma skills over to Intelligence. Of course, if you are not building a Thassilonian (Sin Magic) Specialist (which completely prohibits 2 whole Arcane Schools instead of just making them Opposition Schools) like I was when researching this, UMD will be less important to you.
By getting a 20 via dumping the 14 CHA, he absolutely gets his intelligence modifier +3 higher than his CHA modifier.
On top of that, as he gains levels he can put all of his level-up and mental stat items into INT, meaning that by choosing the 20 INT over the 14 CHA he is likely to have *higher* CHA based skills in the long run. It also boosts the large variety of INT skills that the wizard actually has as class skills.
Dumping CHA and taking Clever wordplay/Pragmatic activator really is a better choice even in your position as a thassilonian. Really only enchanters, diabolists and would-be liches should have a CHA score above minimum.
As I said, of course, a single extra modifier point is not the end of the world --- but if we are giving build advice, there's no real 'mechanical' reason to have above minimum CHA on a wizard other than a personal arbitrary preference.