Magus or Barbarian.
You mean classes that are quite easy to use and will be quite reasonable?
Base class Summoner , no archetypes.
Define a poor optimizer? Is he poor because he tries to stick to themes that are just poor in practice, or is he poor because he just doesn't care?
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My recommendation: Sorcerer. It's really hard to go wrong if you go with Arcane bloodline and just take blasting talents.
For melee classes, I'd say Barbarian.
For a hybrid, I'd recommend Paladin or Inquisitor, 2H with heavy armor for both.
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You mean classes that are quite easy to use and will be quite reasonable?
Base class Summoner , no archetypes.
I considered suggesting Summoner, but it is actually rather complicated. A poor optimizer most likely has poor system mastery, and a Summoner in the hands of such an individual can grind the game to a halt with analysis paralysis.
I think Cleric is pretty straightforward.
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I think Cleric is pretty straightforward.
I'd disagree regarding any prepared caster, as it can create a situation of paralysis by choice. *Do I prepare this today? How many? Do I need 2? But I could also get this..."
At least with spontaneous you make your choice, and you're done. Prepared you do that every damn day.
I think Cleric is pretty straightforward.I'd disagree regarding any prepared caster, as it can create a situation of paralysis by choice. *Do I prepare this today? How many? Do I need 2? But I could also get this..."
At least with spontaneous you make your choice, and you're done. Prepared you do that every damn day.
Funny, since I was thinking the reverse. With a spontaneous caster you have to consider not only whether a spell will useful today, but whether it will be useful for the rest of your character's life.
With a Cleric you will probably have a stock spell set of spells that doesn't change much over the course of an adventure, but you can easily modify your spell list as you progress. And if some of your choices for the day don't seem useful, you can always use them for spontaneous healing.
I think Cleric is pretty straightforward.Clerics have a really low floor actually. You need a lot of system mastery to know which spells and domains are useful. In combat healing is a trap, etc... I am speaking from experience here, having played with unoptimized clerics.
Not as bad as wizards, but most caster classes have really low floors, and as the previous poster said, prepared casters are really hard on people without system mastery.
Well that's probably the reason for my perspective. Wizards are my baseline, so Clerics seem simple.
Unchained Barbarian would be my pick, actually. The ceiling isn't as high as the original but there are less trap rage powers. It's also not just easy to build, but easy to play with only one resource pool to manage and usually one strategy.
Just make sure they have a copy of their character sheet enraged and a copy at baseline, and make sure they understand temporary HP.
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I considered suggesting Summoner, but it is actually rather complicated. A poor optimizer most likely has poor system mastery, and a Summoner in the hands of such an individual can grind the game to a halt with analysis paralysis.You mean classes that are quite easy to use and will be quite reasonable?
Base class Summoner , no archetypes.
Totally agree here. Summoner's probably the highest floor class in the game.
Barbarian is a great option, relatively simple and easy to make effective. I'm not too familiar with Unchained, but it seems simpler to manage.
If he wants a caster, spontaneous is probably the way to go, if someone can help pick useful spells.
want a good Caster that is easy to learn? the Oracle should help fairly well. depending on what mystery and powers you take, an Oracle can be very straightforward. i suggest a blind battle oracle with a polearm.
As mentioned before the ranger is a good option. Good hit points, two good saves, full BAB, can ignore feat trees within their chosen style. They can change their spells every day and they are not highly dependent on spells anyway. I recommend they choose the guide archetype so they don't have to worry about choosing a favoured enemy. I would also allow retraining of favoured terrains and feats as per the retraining rules in ultimate campaign.
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If you want to go Summoner, you should probably also consider the Unchained version. It is supposed to be less powerful, but also easier to build. The original Summoner has a reputation for people making illegal builds, often by accident. I wouldn't count on a new player being able to handle all that.
barbarian. Other than power attack they have few feat needs.
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Unchained Rogue-
Equip with rapier, studded leather armor, light mace, dagger, upgrade to DR go a rounds later. Upgrading armor will come with system knowledge
Skills- Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Knowledge Local, Perception, Stealth, UMD, spend bonus skills points as you like, with a suggestion to knowledge skills
Talents- anything that increases sneak attack, or helps movement
Even a complete noob couldn't screw this up, they might get killed early if they try to approach this PC as a fighter.
Feats don't matter too much with this
I'd go Bloodrager over Barbarian, actually. Barbarians have few feat needs but they have a TON of rage power options that can radically change your effectiveness depending on your choices and have a lot of odd synergies that aren't going to be immediately apparent to an inexperienced player. The Bloodrager, on the other hand, is about as effective as its going to be right out of the box.
I'd go Bloodrager over Barbarian, actually. Barbarians have few feat needs but they have a TON of rage power options that can radically change your effectiveness depending on your choices and have a lot of odd synergies that aren't going to be immediately apparent to an inexperienced player. The Bloodrager, on the other hand, is about as effective as its going to be right out of the box.
That's not a bad idea, though I think the Unchained Barbar is harder to screw up.
Human Kineticist with PBS and Precise Shot. They can pick anything they want after that and it will be all right.
Bloodrager with Power Attack.
I'd go Bloodrager over Barbarian, actually. Barbarians have few feat needs but they have a TON of rage power options that can radically change your effectiveness depending on your choices and have a lot of odd synergies that aren't going to be immediately apparent to an inexperienced player. The Bloodrager, on the other hand, is about as effective as its going to be right out of the box.
I would disagree. Rage powers can be optimized definitely, but a barbarian without rage powers is still powerful. You do not need to be clever picking them to be potent.
The blood rager has spells and requires much more attention to your stats as a barbarian only needs physical ones. Requiring your ro be more clever with the stat array
A bloodrager's feats need more attention than a barbarian. Having less physical stats would need to be made up for by picking stats to combo with your bloodline and spell casting.
Plus you have spells to select. A bloodrager picking the trap of blast spells will definitely nerf themselves.
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I'm surprised no one mentioned Zen Archer Monk. They have built-in feats and look pretty hard to screw up. Tactically it's point and shoot. Plus they have great saves and decent skills.
I'd go Bloodrager over Barbarian, actually. Barbarians have few feat needs but they have a TON of rage power options that can radically change your effectiveness depending on your choices and have a lot of odd synergies that aren't going to be immediately apparent to an inexperienced player. The Bloodrager, on the other hand, is about as effective as its going to be right out of the box.I would disagree. Rage powers can be optimized definitely, but a barbarian without rage powers is still powerful. You do not need to be clever picking them to be potent.
The blood rager has spells and requires much more attention to your stats as a barbarian only needs physical ones. Requiring your ro be more clever with the stat array
A bloodrager's feats need more attention than a barbarian. Having less physical stats would need to be made up for by picking stats to combo with your bloodline and spell casting.
Plus you have spells to select. A bloodrager picking the trap of blast spells will definitely nerf themselves.
This makes no sense. The bloodrager chasis is effectively barbarian - rage powers + bloodline + casting. And the good bloodlines are effectively semi-optimized sets of rage powers. Bloodragers need exactly as many feats as barbarians: Power Attack/Raging Vitality/Will save booster. And I'm sorry, but starting with a 12 Cha is not exactly a burden when it comes to stat distribution, you dump Int instead of Cha if needed. And spellcasting is basically free when you compare the classes in this scenario, as its effective cost is being able to take the extra Rage Power feat, which a non-optimizer wouldn't be able to readily take advantage of anyways.
TL;DR Bloodragers are basically semi-optimized barbarians that get 4th level casting for free, so there is no way they have a lower optimization floor.
I disagree. Rage powers is the biggest choice for barbarians.
Bloodragers have more choices. Dumping Int is more painful than cha. PLus a barbarian can dump cha, annd then also dump int if need be.
Human Kineticist with PBS and Precise Shot. They can pick anything they want after that and it will be all right.
By all the gods and their mothers... hell no. Do you even realize the book-keeping required for a kineticist? The intimate knowledge of their rules you have to have? This is not a starting player's class.
I agree with Ranger or Paladin. Oath of Vengeance Paladin with Power Attack, Fey Foundling and Extra Lay on Hands up the wazoo. Might be boring, but straight forward and no paralysis (the extra lay on hands powers their smite, so they don't have to 'save' it or worry about blowing it too early).
This was a build posted by someone else, might be a bit out of date, but it looks made for starting players:
Human Paladin (Oath of Vengeance)
Attributes:
STR - 14
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 11 (+1 at 20th)
WIS - 8
CHA - 18 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th and 16th)Traits:
Reactionary
Purity of FaithFeats:
1st - Fey Foundling
1st - Power Attack
3rd - Deadly Aim
5th - Extra Lay on Hands
7th - Extra Lay on Hands
9th - Extra Lay on Hands
11th - Extra Lay on Hands
13th - Extra Lay on Hands
15th - Extra Lay on Hands
17th - Greater Mercy
19th - Ultimate Mercy or Radiant ChargeMy version of the character notmally carries a Greatsword and a Composite Bow, but you're free to use any weapons you like as you're not tied to anything specific.
Here's the deal - with Fey Foundling you gain an additional +2 hit points per die whenever you heal yourself or are healed by another. That's huge. You also gain the benefits of Mercies when you self-heal or heal others which is also huge. Moreover, you know how awesome Smites are? Well, Oath of Vengeance allows you to sub some of those Lay on Hands in for extra Smites, so now you're fueling both your offense AND your defense. Power Attack and Deadly Aim were taken to make you equally dangerous in melee or at range when you're Smiting because the attack bonus should more than offset your penalty for using those feats. Also keep in mind the massive bonus to saving throws you'll be getting, all of those Paladin immunities and the auras you'll be generating to help protect your teammates.
Let me put this in perspective. Assuming no ability-boosting magic items, at 6th level you'll have 10 uses of Lay on Hands a day. Assuming that you don't use any of those to get extra smites, that gives you (3d6+6)x10 extra hit points to play with. That works out to about 160 bonus hit points a day. By 12th level that number jumps to (6d6+12)x20 or around 660 bonus hit points a day. At 20th that number becomes 2,552 bonus hit points. A day. Again, that's in addition to being able to wear full armor, have all those boosted saves, gain all those Paladin immunities etc.
So you have all the self-heals you want without ever having to take a break in combat, all the Smites you want which makes you a killing machine and protection from almost anything that could incapacitate you or turn you against the party. You have heals that can use to help out party members between battles or when you bed down for the night... and let us not forget spells. Paladins have some truly great spells. In particular, I recommend:
1st level - Hero's Defiance (let's you cast Lay on Hands as an immediate action - its good to hang onto a couple of these to be truly un-killable)
2nd level - Litany of Righteousness (swift action spell that doubles the damage you deal for 1 round against evil creatures - combined with Smite its pretty much a death spell)
3rd level - Blessing of Fervor (normally not a Paladin spell but Oath of Vengeance gets it for you - probably one of the best group buffs out there)
4th level - Bloodsworn Retribution (+5 attacks, +5 saves, +5 skill and ability checks, pretty much all the time? Yes, please)That's the build that absolutely thrived in RotRL Anniversary Ed. He was a LOT of fun to play.
something with rage or the Kineticist. All day blast and the blasts are good by themselves.
Gunslinger.
The class abilities are as linear as can be, and they're always good at their job.
I know the op said no archetypes, but I vote Eldritch Scion Magus. Its a bloodrager + a Magus. So you have high damage output, but you're a spontaneous casters so your choices are simpler. If you allow retraining spells according to the rules then they can always fix a poorly trained spell later on. You end up getting a decent grasp on weapon enchantment mechanics earlier on.
Just send them a guide, or PM me and I'll send a link for one or two. And they can skim the guide on the best Arcana and spells. Its hard to go wrong with a magus. The spontaneous casting complicates the normal magus builds, but a first timer or non optimizer won't care and it simplifies casting for a first timer as well. And they have bloodrager abilities also. They'll have a fine damage output from the jump. I would recommend them doing a dex build also so they don't have to worry about anything but cha and dex really.
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I know the op said no archetypes, but I vote Eldritch Scion Magus. Its a bloodrager + a Magus. So you have high damage output, but you're a spontaneous casters so your choices are simpler. If you allow retraining spells according to the rules then they can always fix a poorly trained spell later on. You end up getting a decent grasp on weapon enchantment mechanics earlier on.
Just send them a guide, or PM me and I'll send a link for one or two. And they can skim the guide on the best Arcana and spells. Its hard to go wrong with a magus. The spontaneous casting complicates the normal magus builds, but a first timer or non optimizer won't care and it simplifies casting for a first timer as well. And they have bloodrager abilities also. They'll have a fine damage output from the jump. I would recommend them doing a dex build also so they don't have to worry about anything but cha and dex really.
No, no they really shouldn't. It has been brought up many times, the archetype is a colossal trap. It's vastly inferior to both a Bloodrager, and the base Magus. Further, it plays nothing like a Magus, and has none of the power potential it's known for, leaving "Magus guides" completely worthless to the building of an Eldritch Scion, since it is impossible to play it like a standard Magus and none of the standard methods apply.
Please let this archetype die and be forgotten.
One of the things I'd definitely recommend for this player is 'another player and possibly the GM to rely on for questions'. That said, I'd have to agree, the barbarian (especially unchained) is likely a pretty 'easy' one to deal with. Of course, this heavily depends on what kind of character this person wants to play.
Sadly, my first experience as a magic user was in 2d edition. I ... wasn't really good for much.
I'm surprised no one mentioned Zen Archer Monk. They have built-in feats and look pretty hard to screw up. Tactically it's point and shoot. Plus they have great saves and decent skills.
Oooooooh, good call. ZA is very straightforward. As long as the player avoids feats incompatible with Flurry it should be hard to screw up.
Falxu's paladin is pretty much what I'd recommend. Easy to play, very dependable. The spells give a new player the ability to get some fun reactionary stuff and learn the system more by exploring spell options.
No, no they really shouldn't. It has been brought up many times, the archetype is a colossal trap. It's vastly inferior to both a Bloodrager, and the base Magus. Further, it plays nothing like a Magus, and has none of the power potential it's known for, leaving "Magus guides" completely worthless to the building of an Eldritch Scion, since it is impossible to play it like a standard Magus and none of the standard methods apply.
Please let this archetype die and be forgotten.
I disagree. The OP asked for something hard to mess up. I feel that Eldritch Scion magus is hard to mess up and would be easy to play. Its irrelevant of if you feel its a trap or not or if you feel its inferior. The player is not an optimizer, so he wouldn't try to grind out his character. So it doesn't matter if it plays nothing like a standard Magus.
I also said to use the Magus guides for spells and arcana. Not to build the entire Magus. The player would just build it however he wants. And he could pretty much always spellstrike shocking grasp and put out decent damage.It'd give him a decent feel of both a caster and a fighter. He wouldn't have to worry about metamagic as much, which can seem very daunting at first. And he wouldn't have to try and find the perfect fighter build either. And the next time he plays he could play more to what he enjoyed from playing a Magus. Or he could try his hand at a standard Magus. But it wouldn't be hard for him to play the character well regardless of what he does.
No, no they really shouldn't. It has been brought up many times, the archetype is a colossal trap. It's vastly inferior to both a Bloodrager, and the base Magus. Further, it plays nothing like a Magus, and has none of the power potential it's known for, leaving "Magus guides" completely worthless to the building of an Eldritch Scion, since it is impossible to play it like a standard Magus and none of the standard methods apply.
Please let this archetype die and be forgotten.
I disagree. The OP asked for something hard to mess up. I feel that Eldritch Scion magus is hard to mess up and would be easy to play. Its irrelevant of if you feel its a trap or not or if you feel its inferior. The player is not an optimizer, so he wouldn't try to grind out his character. So it doesn't matter if it plays nothing like a standard Magus.
I also said to use the Magus guides for spells and arcana. Not to build the entire Magus. The player would just build it however he wants. And he could pretty much always spellstrike shocking grasp and put out decent damage.
It'd give him a decent feel of both a caster and a fighter. He wouldn't have to worry about metamagic as much, which can seem very daunting at first. And he wouldn't have to try and find the perfect fighter build either. And the next time he plays he could play more to what he enjoyed from playing a Magus. Or he could try his hand at a standard Magus. But it wouldn't be hard for him to play the character well regardless of what he does.
The problem is that while many of us are using ease of play as a secondary consideration, what the OP explicitly asked for was a high optimization floor. I'm no Magus guy, but if the Scion is actually vastly inferior to the base Magus it isn't a good option here. If you can make a case for it performing better than it is getting credit for, that's cool. Otherwise, why wouldn't the person default to the more powerful vanilla Magus per the OP's request.
Summoner is actually rather simple in and of itself. It's really hard to make an eidolon that isn't effective, and the spells are great to help out the entire party, so wrong picks are difficult to make. Bloodrager is also a good pick, as they're really simple to get going (Arcane Bloodline in particular is a breeze to deal with). Kineticist is simple enough, but leads to some potential to get sidetracked by bad talents.
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I disagree with anyone mentioning casters for poor optimizers, ESPECIALLY spontaneous casters, as they can make poor spell choices and then are stuck with them. Plus, they most likely don't know what the 'good' blasting spells are.
Or they'll just choose all the fire spells and get hosed when going up against something immune to fire.
Paladins are straightforward, as long as you tell them to focus on strength, con, and charisma. Bloodragers, and barbarians are good too, if you help them choose their spells/rage powers effectively. Lastly, I've seen good use with brawlers. Just ignore martial flexability (or show them a couple go-to feats, like blind fight, deflect arrows, and improved grapple, and just have them switch between those as the situation calls for.)
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Just for clarification, Zen Archer Monk is not only pretty easy to build, easy to play, and hard to screw up, it also can do some serious damage. That is, it has a high optimization floor.
Fighter, you can't mess up because you can swap combat feats.