Do classes with built-in companions get screwed for wealth? Should they?

[Aratrok]

I bring the citations.

Core Rulebook - Ability Scores wrote:

Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

[Diego Rossi]

Cavall, maybe you should read again that FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Headband of Vast Intelligence: If I wear this item, do I get retroactive skill ranks for my Int increase in addition to the skill ranks associated with the item?

No. The skill associated with the magic item represents the "retroactive" skill ranks you'd get from the item increasing your Intelligence. You don't get the item's built-in skill ranks and another set to assign however you want.

It don't say that you don't get the retroactive skill ranks, it say that the retroactive skill ranks are determined by the item.

When something give you an increase in intelligence without assigning the newly gained skill ranks you get to spend them normally.

Generally that applies when you get an inherent bonus to intelligence or when you raise it with the increase you get every 4 levels.

[VargrBoartusk]

Cavall wrote:

I don't understand that statement.

They're saying that while there is an FAQ answer on it it still hasn't made it's way into a printed rulebook and thus RAW and RAI are in conflict.

[Cavall]

I get that an increase in intelligence from say, a wish or book to boost your score goes by that rule.

However the errata is clear, and specific override general. Always.

This specific question answers as "no."

There are other ways to increase and follow rules as general for that.

[Atarlost]

Their "solution," as with most Paizo "solutions" isn't.

The problem is that people can get a skill in 24 hours since that's the time it takes for an equipment bonus to count as permanent. If the GM either considers skills no big deal or is incapable of saying "no." If the GM is incapable of saying "no" the FAQ won't help. If the GM considers it inconsequential it's not helping anything. If the GM cares and is capable of saying "no" he probably used the method of tracking bonus int skillpoints on the character not the item because he's not stupid and tracking character side also fixes ability drain.

Because, yes, you can still respec all but one of your skills per level by repeatedly using a Vacuous Grimoire, the Primal Regression spell, or the Blood Sentinel spell with someone around who can cast Restoration and a few hundred gp of diamond dust. And in less time since depending on the time of day it may take them as little as 8 hours to get their spells back instead of having to wait the full 24 hours for the headband bonus to count as permanent.

There are also a number of monsters that can't be used under controlled circumstances to drain and restore intelligence, but which can still cause the issue to crop up.

[parsimony]

There are re-training rules for skills in the Ultimate Campaign. Apply time and money, which comes across as pretty sensible by comparison. I like the hard-coded approach to items that augment intelligence. It is more in keeping with stories -- old and new fiction. Or/and consider the dangers of such an item that had intelligence itself. Or/and you could add a little bit of extraneous memory or personality of the ancient person who used or created the item.

[Neo2151]

Atarlost wrote:

And in less time since depending on the time of day it may take them as little as 8 hours to get their spells back instead of having to wait the full 24 hours for the headband bonus to count as permanent.

Getting your spell slots back for the day requires 8 hours of rest and a full day to pass.

You don't get slots back every time you rest for 8 hours. (See the text of Ring of Sustenance if you don't believe.)

[Galnörag]

On the topic of companions, the point build does impact the effectiveness of the companion. In a 20, 25 point build game the companions are weaker then their team mates (master, other players)

[Insain Dragoon]

If you intend for your companion to carry real weight then play a Hunter or Summoner. Otherwise Fido is only there to get you past level 10.

[Lemmy]

Druid's animal companions can be pretty helpful, thanks to full caster buffing.

[Galnörag]

The sacred huntsmen in a lot of ways is as good or better than the hunter. On the surface it is one of those archetypes that does the class better then the class, if you like the flavour.

[GlennH]

I looked up an old character of mine that was a 17th level druid with a tiger animal companion. The druid had about 250K of magic items and the tiger was equipped with about 160K. Most of the items were created using the craft magic rules so the wealth cost to the PC was about half.

Tiger's equipment list:
+4 Mithral chain shirt barding (large) (base 3,400gp) Energy Resistance DR 10/cold 35,400
Belt of Mighty constitution +4 16,000
Amulet of Golem Bane 2500
Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose Prism AC +1 5000
Scroll of Heal in scroll tube attached to saddle. 6th lev, CL 11 1,650
Bag of holding type 2 as saddle bag 500lb limit.
Eberyon Tear of Speed & Holy (bite), 50,500
4xEberyon Tear of Holy (2xClaw & 2xRake +2D6 vs Evil creatures & Good Aligned attacks , 8500@ x 4 {Eberyon Tears were custom magic items that functioned like an amulet of the fist, but for only one attack.}

Magic Spells in Effect On the Tiger: Longstrider 16hr, 3x Extended* Greater Magic Fang +4 Bite, 2xClaw, Extended* barkskin (+5) twice per day (10hr 40min), Extended* delay Poison (34hr), extended* resist energy {DR30/fire} twice per day (10hr 40min), Reduce Animal (16hr).

[Weirdo]

I have definitely found my companion's usefulness to drop off sharply at high levels.

They may get 16 HD by level 20, but it comes with a d8 HD and average BAB, which means their BAB at 20 is just +12 and their average HP will be comparable to a rogue's.

HP details:

Since the first HD is not maxed, the animal's average HP is 56+(16*Con) compared to a rogue's 74+(20*Con).

By plugging in some numbers and making a table, we see that the animal needs a Con score at least 2 points higher than the rogue's to (roughly) match their HP, and this gap expands as both Con scores increase. +1 matches 0, but +5 and +6 match +3 and +4 (a 4-point gap) and +10 matches +7 (a 6-point gap).

Con mod Animal Rogue
0--------56-------74
+1-------72-------94
+2-------88-------114
+3-------104------134
+4-------120------154
+5-------136------174
+6-------152------194
+7-------168------214
+8-------184
+9-------200
+10------216

Base Con scores for companions after the level 4/7 boost are largely in the 16-19 range. This produces roughly equivalent HP to a rogue that starts with 12-15, ends in the 16-22 range at level 20, and gets similar con increases from items & other sources to the animal (note that the animal doesn't get an extra +6 to Con like strength and dex). This seems reasonable to me; if anything I think I've been generous the the animal companion in assuming the rogue's Con won't go higher.

A competitive companion will have multiple attacks, a very good strength, or both, which helps with the accuracy, and thanks to natural armour their AC is good without the usual set of items. But they also have few special features of their own to boost their combat ability. In total, this means that at higher levels the unbuffed companion is at best on par with a secondary melee character. Probably less when you consider what a halfway competent melee alchemist can do.

So the master of a high-level animal companion has two options:

1) Accept that the animal will contribute only minimally to encounters as a mount, flanking partner, etc, maybe taking a few hits or taking out a mook or two but not doing any significant damage and being in real danger if it tries to tank seriously.

2) Buff the animal companion in order to make them a competent combatant, diverting resources you could use to buff yourself or other allies or to apply offensive spells.

This frustrated me at first as a player, but looking at it from the GM perspective I see that it's a feature, not a bug. The animal companion is a class feature, and it's not fair for one character's class feature to be as good as another whole character on top of whatever else they get aside from the pet. If the pet needs a lot of support to be as effective in combat as a PC, then it means that the master is not going to be as effective in their own right, and the combination in theory reaches a kind of balance. This is particularly important for the druid, since at high levels its casting is already very effective.

[Insain Dragoon]

Weirdo, play a Hunter.

[Weirdo]

That's option 2, and with a fairly heavy investment thanks to the class features' focus.

I certainly might play a Hunter at some point, but I'm in hindsight pretty happy with my decision to let my druid's companion take a mechanical back seat late in the campaign. The companion's limitations never made me feel like my character wasn't contributing, and high level druid magic gave me a lot of interesting stuff to play with. The companion was still fun for RP purposes.