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Aid another is so simple a solution we completely overlooked it. Though I do have to ask, since I don't have a rulebook with me. Can you aid another in a skill you have no training or even a skill point in?
Probably, but: "In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone."
As far as the spells the Witch is kinda obviously our main offensive caster so the only non-damaging spell she has is CLW for Emergencies and the Bard can't caste 2nd level magic (i.e. Cat's Grace) until level 4. We are currently level 3. As for guidance as far as I know that is not a bard spell. The Witch might be able to but like I said she hasn't been looking at support spells it may be a suggestion for her next level up.
I believe witches can learn spells from scrolls... so now all you need is enough money to buy the relevant scroll and somewhere to buy them.
To be clear I don't hate people who metagame or metagaming in of itself all that much it's just not what I and my group like to do. When people tell us to do so and I reply that we don't do that and their reply is non-helpful and or that we are "doing it wrong" it offends me greatly.
Most people don't consider what happens during character creation to be metagaming at all - of course you're using out-of-character knowledge, because the character doesn't exist yet, and how else can you ensure your character is appropriate for the campaign ahead? If you call that metagaming, people will be offended.
(It is metagaming, though. Very often good meta gaming with important relevance to the boon of the gaming group, but metagaming nonetheless. Good catch on the Aid Another, Matt: as I said, I'm steeped in a different system right now and it's harder to look things up at present. :D)
our bard did dump four skill points into Disable device but her Dex mod is only +3 so 3+4+20(taking 20)+2(MWK Tools)=29 not good enough for those 30 DC Locks.
+3 for Class Skill
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Legendary Games Gothic plugins might provide a little more in-between stuff. I recall at least one adventure in their Gothic Compendium which collects all plugins.
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Wow I'm not gonna lie I love all the discussion this has generated between everyone.
I appreciate everyone's advice and criticisms. I will admit it does look like there are some easy ways for us to get through these locks now. Aid another is so simple a solution we completely overlooked it. Though I do have to ask, since I don't have a rulebook with me. Can you aid another in a skill you have no training or even a skill point in?
As far as the spells the Witch is kinda obviously our main offensive caster so the only non-damaging spell she has is CLW for Emergencies and the Bard can't caste 2nd level magic (i.e. Cat's Grace) until level 4. We are currently level 3. As for guidance as far as I know that is not a bard spell. The Witch might be able to but like I said she hasn't been looking at support spells it may be a suggestion for her next level up.
As for the suggestion of an Archaeologist. I do appreciate the idea but this is the player's first swing at a magic class so we tried to keep it simple for her. Plus the character's main skill is Perform (Dance) and she plays her like a stripper and I honestly don't think anything but the cold hard death of this character will stop her lol. She just loves her to damn much. And no before you guys get all mean about we are not going to kill her character just so she will play one more suited for the AP.
As for the metagaming comment I made earlier I apologize I wasn't trying to be rude or offensive it's just at the time of writing it I interpreted someone else comment about our party composition and are dislike for metagaming as an attack and insult towards us as players. Whether or not that's true doesn't matter I shouldn't have reacted that way and again I apologize. To be clear I don't hate people who metagame or metagaming in of itself all that much it's just not what I and my group like to do. When people tell us to do so and I reply that we don't do that and their reply is non-helpful and or that we are "doing it wrong" it offends me greatly.
In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone. The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well.
To use aid another you need to have at least skill point in disable device.
Guidance is a cantrip and the witch know it:
A witch's familiar begins play storing all of the 0-level witch spells plus three 1st-level spells of the witch's choice.
CLW is a spell damaging against the undead and a witch has very few useful spells or hex against them.
I hope she has a good patron.Bard: arcane strike is very useful for them, especially if you have little magic.
In CC 1 our bard saved us several time with a well placed dart and arcane strike, or trowing holy water and magical stones made by the cleric.
Most people don't consider what happens during character creation to be metagaming at all - of course you're using out-of-character knowledge, because the character doesn't exist yet, and how else can you ensure your character is appropriate for the campaign ahead? If you call that metagaming, people will be offended.I guess I can understand that but, that's just not the way we view it. Our characters only belong to one person. The player not the group. When we make them we make them separately (not in front of each other) and while we may not write entire books about them we do make up backstories for them.
Let me put it to you this way. Think of it in real world terms. A cop doesn't choose to become a cop because someone else chose to become a doctor or another person choosing to be a pilot. I understand that we CAN give other reasons why our characters are their classes, but we all (my group not everyone in the world) agreed that it's still metagaming since we are using outside knowledge (the other players classes) as reasons for making decisions about our character and or their actions. Hell we even level up without interference from each other. Sure we can make suggestions (usually in character) but the final decision is up to them.
Maybe that is valid at character creation, but you have fought together against strong foes. It would be only logic to try to maximize your character strengths and cover your weak spots, finding a way to work together to maximize your chance of winning.
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On your current Disable Device situation: Take 20 + 4 (ranks) + 3 (ability) + 2 (tools). Aid Another = +2, Guidance = +1 (your witch should have this). That's a 32 with one person helping. If a 32 doesn't open a level 3-4 device, it wasn't meant to be opened.
On fighting things: ghost salt (a 20g item) w/ 10 ammunitions of your choice OR having your paladin cast Bless Weapon will help you out in lieu of magical weapons.
On metagaming: Reading spoilers for the campaign you are a player for, in my opinion, is more 'metagame-y' than trying to put together a party that works. I don't know your player group dynamics, but I doubt the GM is actively working against your in-game enjoyment, at least intentionally. They are a 'player' in this game called Pathfinder too, and happy players tend to make for a fun game for the GM. For situations where you feel as though you are being slighted, it's always best to discuss it out-of-game with them. I see so many posts on this forum where the problem is just a lack of communication.
On putting together a party: I understand that it feels contrived to have a constructed party for an opening like CC has, but you have to set aside your suspension of disbelief for a moment to ensure that everyone has fun. Character decisions last throughout the entire campaign, which could take a year to finish. If two people are constantly attempting to fill the same role in the party, it can cause a loss of interest or just plain-'ol party conflict.
Obviously there's no one true way to play, but in my opinion creating a party that works together (though understanding *not* every role needs to be filled) is an important step in the game.
Session 0, where everyone gets around the table to discuss potential character story, character roles, campaign goals, house rules, and more, has led to many a successful game for me. YYMV, but the 'metagame feel' is justified by creating a more enjoyable play experience for the individual throughout the entire campaign.
Edit: Partially ninja'd. Damn you work phone calls! I'm trying to forum crawl because there are people who are wrong on the internet! :fistshake:
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our bard did dump four skill points into Disable device but her Dex mod is only +3 so 3+4+20(taking 20)+2(MWK Tools)=29 not good enough for those 30 DC Locks.+3 for Class Skill
Really? Hmm... How about
+2 Inspire Confidence
our bard did dump four skill points into Disable device but her Dex mod is only +3 so 3+4+20(taking 20)+2(MWK Tools)=29 not good enough for those 30 DC Locks.+3 for Class Skill
Really? Hmm... How about
+2 Inspire Confidence
While it may be useful for helping ensure the Aid Another checks, it unfortunately doesn't help the bard himself.
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Bah, I didn't read far enough.... In an all day training and bored.
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If it's a metal safe, you could eventually just bash your way through it with weapon attacks. Steel has a hardness of 10 so as long as your max damage is at least 11, you will eventually chop the door off the safe. It might take a long time and be super noisy. You could also get a long crowbar and try to pry it open, which everyone can aid another on as it's a straight Strength check.
Your GM might rule that this messes up some of the treasure if it's fragile, but coins should be okay.
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Yeah, you can always bash your way in, but there are potential consequences.
In fact, this safe contains several consumables which break if you hack your way in.
And Carrion Crown can be a little rough on WBL, but:
You get and 8300 gp keen longsword at the end of book one, and the first encounter of book two offers up an 8300 gp shapechanger bane dagger, so there's a pretty big boost before you get to Lepidstadt.
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I think an important point that others are making in a roundabout manner is that because Carrion Crown is such a low-wealth campaign (unless you work really hard to squeeze every last copper out of it), cooperation among party members becomes far more important.
I didn't hate Carrion Crown because I was playing a low-wealth fighter.
I hated Carrion Crown because I was a low-wealth fighter in a group where every other party member except the bard addressed my continuing issues with, "Don't look at me! You should take feats and buy magic items to deal with that!"
In spite of having a druid, sorcerer, paladin, and bard in the party, my fighter never once went into combat with any buffs outside of those cast by the bard. So he was constantly ground-bound, dominated, terrified, or otherwise useless.
This campaign stresses cooperation, as many others have pointed out. Yeah, the story line is very weak. But I hated it more because of my fellow players (except the bard) than I did because of the low wealth or crappy plot...
EDIT: Interesting. DocShock points out two major magic items. Our group didn't get the first (don't know where it went), and another party member claimed the second, so my fighter got 0 gold out of those two. Again, bad party dynamics more than anything else.
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While it may be useful for helping ensure the Aid Another checks, it unfortunately doesn't help the bard himself.our bard did dump four skill points into Disable device but her Dex mod is only +3 so 3+4+20(taking 20)+2(MWK Tools)=29 not good enough for those 30 DC Locks.+3 for Class Skill
Really? Hmm... How about
+2 Inspire Confidence
Inspire Competence +2, available to a level 3 Bard: "A bard of 3rd level or higher can use his performance to help an ally succeed at a task. The ally must be within 30 feet and able to see and hear the bard. The ally gets a +2 competence bonus on skill checks with a particular skill as long as she continues to hear the bard’s performance."
FAQ: You count as your own ally.(Although it might not last long enough for a Take 20, or your type of performance might not be practical while picking a lock.)
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I think an important point that others are making in a roundabout manner is that because Carrion Crown is such a low-wealth campaign (unless you work really hard to squeeze every last copper out of it), cooperation among party members becomes far more important.
I didn't hate Carrion Crown because I was playing a low-wealth fighter.
I hated Carrion Crown because I was a low-wealth fighter in a group where every other party member except the bard addressed my continuing issues with, "Don't look at me! You should take feats and buy magic items to deal with that!"Constantly dealing with incorporeal creatures? "Oh, I'm not going to waste a spell slot on Magic Weapon! Buy yourself one!" First succumbing to fear effects on a regular basis, and then being pretty much every Dominating creature's puppet? "I'm not wasting my precious spell slots on Protection from Evil! Take Iron Will and Improved Iron Will like every fighter should!" Being unable to reach flying foes and having to use a rather tame composite longbow because I couldn't afford to maintain two magic weapons? "I'm not casting Fly on you! Buy some winged boots!"
In spite of having a druid, sorcerer, paladin, and bard in the party, my fighter never once went into combat with any buffs outside of those cast by the bard. So he was constantly ground-bound, dominated, terrified, or otherwise useless.
This campaign stresses cooperation, as many others have pointed out. Yeah, the story line is very weak. But I hated it more because of my fellow players (except the bard) than I did because of the low wealth or crappy plot...
EDIT: Interesting. DocShock points out two major magic items. Our group didn't get the first (don't know where it went), and another party member claimed the second, so my fighter got 0 gold out of those two. Again, bad party dynamics more than anything else.
Sounds like a PFS throw-together party, letting you know why nobody plays the fighter. Obviously, they want to do stuff other then keep casting spells on you so you could do your job. It's these lack of defenses and options which basically define the fighter and a lot of martials.
I'm not saying I'm taking their side...but relying on them to have the spells to make your character effective sucks from both sides. If they were playing their characters effectively without having to do so with you, then complaining is just you telling them to play their PC's differently. From their standpoint, it was rude of you to keep begging them for spells.
But stories like that are one reason why there are so many options to re-write the fighter.
==Aelryinth
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I'd like to point out that even good characters are neither required to martyr themselves, nor should they be encouraged to do so. Being ill prepared for heroism is the fastest way to run out of heroes.This is a horror campaign set in an unpleasant country. Abandon your quest, even temporarily, and the people you were protecting will die, and you will probably be attacked by hideous things with no money out in the wilderness.Too bad for the peasants. :D
My group often plays greedy evil characters.
I like to put this as "Good characters aren't supposed to be just good, but DAMN GOOD."
==Aelryinth
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Lots of stuffWow, sounds like the rest of your group aren't what I'd call good friends?
I've been running largely the same group for a good five years now, and what you describe would never happen with them. Even when someone creates a sub-optimal character for RP reasons (like our current Verminous Hunter), the group works together to make sure everyone is contributing and having fun.
NobodysWife and I were invited to join a group we'd never played with before, but who had been gaming together for around 10 years.
That campaign saw one guy quit the group for life (the erinyes trap), one guy permanently thrown out of the host's house (constant arguments about what he could and could not do as a druid), and the second-to-worst paladin I've ever seen played who's quit the group due to personal conflicts.
So yeah, not exactly a stalwart example of wonderful individuals.
NobodysWife is now running Skull & Shackles for us with the former GM, the former sorcerer, me, and three new players, and it's going amazingly well.
Many campaigns are all about the players. Carrion Crown even more so than most beacause you WILL be spending some time trapped/terrified/dominated, and the rest of the party has to pull you through...
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"Obviously, they want to do stuff other than keep casting spells on you so you can do your job.
Please don't think this is normal teamwork behaviour NobodysHome. Helping your team mates IS helping yourself if it solves the problem you're against. A wizard casting fly on the fighter because he himself can affect the battle at range while the fighter cannot, is thinking tactically and using the best strengths of the team.
When you cast that spell on the fighter and they thank you, you get far more out of the game than the 19 points of damage your lightning bolt may have caused. Plus there are lots of spells that help you at the same time as everyone else - haste for instance, or all the Commune spells. One for all, and all for one.
A caster who sees buffing as "begging for spells" soon changes their tune when there is nothing between them and the oncoming enemy. Two fighters acting from ambush with improve grapple should right things. Perhaps their evil wizard cast invisibility or silence on them to assist... The irony!
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I think an important point that others are making in a roundabout manner is that because Carrion Crown is such a low-wealth campaign (unless you work really hard to squeeze every last copper out of it), cooperation among party members becomes far more important.
I didn't hate Carrion Crown because I was playing a low-wealth fighter.
I hated Carrion Crown because I was a low-wealth fighter in a group where every other party member except the bard addressed my continuing issues with, "Don't look at me! You should take feats and buy magic items to deal with that!"Constantly dealing with incorporeal creatures? "Oh, I'm not going to waste a spell slot on Magic Weapon! Buy yourself one!" First succumbing to fear effects on a regular basis, and then being pretty much every Dominating creature's puppet? "I'm not wasting my precious spell slots on Protection from Evil! Take Iron Will and Improved Iron Will like every fighter should!" Being unable to reach flying foes and having to use a rather tame composite longbow because I couldn't afford to maintain two magic weapons? "I'm not casting Fly on you! Buy some winged boots!"
In spite of having a druid, sorcerer, paladin, and bard in the party, my fighter never once went into combat with any buffs outside of those cast by the bard. So he was constantly ground-bound, dominated, terrified, or otherwise useless.
This campaign stresses cooperation, as many others have pointed out. Yeah, the story line is very weak. But I hated it more because of my fellow players (except the bard) than I did because of the low wealth or crappy plot...
EDIT: Interesting. DocShock points out two major magic items. Our group didn't get the first (don't know where it went), and another party member claimed the second, so my fighter got 0 gold out of those two. Again, bad party dynamics more than anything else.
Wow that sucks. I played a (weapon master - longsword)fighter all the way through CC but my group emphasizes teamwork so it didn't suck nearly as much as what you describe. Though I did invest in some oil of magic weapon early on - especially at levels 1-2, it doesn't make sense to ask a caster to prepare a "what if" spell in one of their few slots.
A lot of players don't realize that sometimes the caster's best move is to buff the martial and let them go to town on things. In a good team everyone feels awesome - it doesn't have to be a contest.
Also, IMO, by the time dominate is flying around, 1st level spell slots are not "precious." SOP for our group was communal protection from evil as the first hint of, say, vampire. Never rely on saves, no matter how good, if you can make people immune.
"Obviously, they want to do stuff other than keep casting spells on you so you can do your job.Please don't think this is normal teamwork behaviour NobodysHome. Helping your team mates IS helping yourself if it solves the problem you're against. A wizard casting fly on the fighter because he himself can affect the battle at range while the fighter cannot, is thinking tactically and using the best strengths of the team.
When you cast that spell on the fighter and they thank you, you get far more out of the game than the 19 points of damage your lightning bolt may have caused. Plus there are lots of spells that help you at the same time as everyone else - haste for instance, or all the Commune spells. One for all, and all for one.
A caster who sees buffing as "begging for spells" soon changes their tune when there is nothing between them and the oncoming enemy. Two fighters acting from ambush with improve grapple should right things. Perhaps their evil wizard cast invisibility or silence on them to assist... The irony!
Good think summoning exists, along with all the other defenses available to a caster, and creating walls and pits. A caster really shouldn't need to worry about things killing it if they are prepared and care to be so self sufficient.
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"Obviously, they want to do stuff other than keep casting spells on you so you can do your job.Please don't think this is normal teamwork behaviour NobodysHome. Helping your team mates IS helping yourself if it solves the problem you're against. A wizard casting fly on the fighter because he himself can affect the battle at range while the fighter cannot, is thinking tactically and using the best strengths of the team.
When you cast that spell on the fighter and they thank you, you get far more out of the game than the 19 points of damage your lightning bolt may have caused. Plus there are lots of spells that help you at the same time as everyone else - haste for instance, or all the Commune spells. One for all, and all for one.
A caster who sees buffing as "begging for spells" soon changes their tune when there is nothing between them and the oncoming enemy. Two fighters acting from ambush with improve grapple should right things. Perhaps their evil wizard cast invisibility or silence on them to assist... The irony!
LOL. I GM'ed Rise of the Runelords, and BBEG had a Hasted, Heroismed, Inspire Couraged, (and many other buffs) barbarian and paladin dropped on him in flanking position thanks to Bard's Escape -- notice the big "Those spaces need not be in line of sight or line of effect from your original position" on that spell.
BBEG took over 600 points of damage before his next action.
It was... bad for him.
I know all about cooperation and dysfunctional groups. This one was just particularly hostile, and particularly dysfunctional, and I'm glad it broke up.
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EDIT: Interesting. DocShock points out two major magic items. Our group didn't get the first (don't know where it went), and another party member claimed the second, so my fighter got 0 gold out of those two. Again, bad party dynamics more than anything else.
That is why my group don't use the "guy that can better use an item get it" way to split loot, but instead calculate the value of all the loot, the value of each party member share, and them you get to to "buy" what you want of the loot.
We borrow virtual money from each other often when dividing loot, but each character has approximately the same WBL.
I don't become: "we have found a 8k sword, it go to the fighter, the bard get the charisma enhancing circlet, then we split the 3000gp we made for selling the other loot" as it will generate imbalances that often aren't compensated by later finds.
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EDIT: Interesting. DocShock points out two major magic items. Our group didn't get the first (don't know where it went), and another party member claimed the second, so my fighter got 0 gold out of those two. Again, bad party dynamics more than anything else.That is why my group don't use the "guy that can better use an item get it" way to split loot, but instead calculate the value of all the loot, the value of each party member share, and them you get to to "buy" what you want of the loot.
We borrow virtual money from each other often when dividing loot, but each character has approximately the same WBL.
I don't become: "we have found a 8k sword, it go to the fighter, the bard get the charisma enhancing circlet, then we split the 3000gp we made for selling the other loot" as it will generate imbalances that often aren't compensated by later finds.
Yep. It's very interesting to watch different groups manage it:
Anyway, I seem to be guilty of a significant threadjack, so I'll shut up and go away now...
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Hey as long as what is being talked about is constructive threadjack away XD.
I will say that at this point I don't know what kind of system will be put into effect since we have effectively not run into any big loot piles to divy up. Besides the CLW potions and holy water vials. Those we split I think two of each to the witch and bard. As the paladin I felt I could take a few hits and had my lay on hands for holy damage.
Well, then! Diego's point is fantastically important -- the way loot is distributed can make or break a campaign. His method is much better for groups where hurt feelings over unevenly-distributed loot are possible, or where you have even one, "We might eventually face skeletons, so I need that +1 mace on top of my +1 longsword and +1 spear. What do you mean, you really need the money? If we sell it we only get half value! We should NEVER sell it," player.
I've seen wealth distribution arguments destroy two campaigns, so it is a not-inconsequential consideration you should discuss, especially before a really really nice 60,000 g.p. item drops into your lap. (Not saying there is one, just saying, "Is your group ready for THAT 'what if'?")
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We're about to start book five, which I believe is suppose to start at level 11, and I have a level 9 slayer with absolutely terrible gear (I'm rocking a +1 rapier and a +2 dagger as my main weapons for example)... Mind you, we are a 6 player party; level 9-10 mix.
The drops are horrid but it is what it is and you know what? I think that this is what helps to give the AP its dark undertones. You just have to get more creative and not expect to brute force your way through everything.
Having said that, I'm not a huge fan of the story line but I digress...
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Dropped loot is always going to average at least a grade lower then a PC of the same level could have. it's the wealth discrepancy between PC and NPC.
So, yeah, you really are intended to buy better gear then you get off of drops. If not, then you have to rely on buffs to get the same.
==Aelryinth
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That is why my group don't use the "guy that can better use an item get it" way to split loot, but instead calculate the value of all the loot, the value of each party member share, and them you get to to "buy" what you want of the loot.
We borrow virtual money from each other often when dividing loot, but each character has approximately the same WBL.
I don't become: "we have found a 8k sword, it go to the fighter, the bard get the charisma enhancing circlet, then we split the 3000gp we made for selling the other loot" as it will generate imbalances that often aren't compensated by later finds.
We never do this. The game tends to throw a lot of situationally awesome items at you that do nothing for you the rest of the time, like
Werewolf bane daggers right before you fight about 20 golems.
In my experience, if you try to make sure everything is balanced all the time most people end up selling everything, because they don't want to take a hit on their gold so that they'll have a great item the couple of times you fight a bane-specific enemy. It comes down to playstyle, but I find that spending a lot of time ensuring everyone is hitting WBL evenly usually means everyone just ends up with really generic items like rings of protection instead of
Mega-goat statues that have +5 longswords for horns. I think the goats are way cooler, but who's going to payout 23k to the rest of the party to make sure everyone comes out even-steven?
It is my (maybe archaic) believe that, when dispute like this happens, it is the DM duty as a neutral party and (hopefully) respected arbiter of the game to "lay down the law" to make sure that the game is fair to all those involved.
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That is why my group don't use the "guy that can better use an item get it" way to split loot, but instead calculate the value of all the loot, the value of each party member share, and them you get to to "buy" what you want of the loot.
We borrow virtual money from each other often when dividing loot, but each character has approximately the same WBL.
I don't become: "we have found a 8k sword, it go to the fighter, the bard get the charisma enhancing circlet, then we split the 3000gp we made for selling the other loot" as it will generate imbalances that often aren't compensated by later finds.
We never do this. The game tends to throw a lot of situationally awesome items at you that do nothing for you the rest of the time, like
[bane weapon]
In my experience, if you try to make sure everything is balanced all the time most people end up selling everything, because they don't want to take a hit on their gold so that they'll have a great item the couple of times you fight a bane-specific enemy. It comes down to playstyle, but I find that spending a lot of time ensuring everyone is hitting WBL evenly usually means everyone just ends up with really generic items like rings of protection instead of
Mega-goat statues that have +5 longswords for horns. I think the goats are way cooler, but who's going to payout 23k to the rest of the party to make sure everyone comes out even-steven?
1) you pay what a buyer would have paid the sold item, so the 21,000 gp ivory goats cost you 10.500 from your party share. from that you get 3 statuettes that can have some great use in a long wilderness AP like Kingmaker and are pretty useless in a standard, fast paced, mostly dungeon AP.
What is more fair and useful, someone taking a item that he will use a couple of times in the AP and the others nothing or each of 4 characters getting 2.500 gp?
If you are high level enough that those 2.500 gp don't matter probablyy you are high level enough that spending 10.500 on a situational item don't bother you.
2) as you pay the sell price, purchasing from the loot that +1 bane weapon for 4.000 gp or purchasing from a seller a +1 weapon for 2.000 gp isn't automatically "I will buy the +1 weapon from the market", nor "I will sell the +1 bane weapon and buy a +2 from the market at 8.000 gp". It all depend on how useful is the specific bane ability.
Evil outsiders? Keep.
Golems? Unless you have a reason to think you will meet plenty of golems, sell.
3) some thing, like wand of CLW, scrolls that are useful to anyone like remove curse and so on are purchased as a group, splitting the cost.
There are items with awesome flavor, little utility and high price that are sold, but when keeping that ivory goat mean that someone don't have a ring +1 or keep the old cloak +1 instead of upgrading to +2, you think that keeping it is a good idea?
Or that the sorcerer getting the staff wort 30.000 (sale price) with several so-so spells that he will use once for each module and is half of the treasure while the other 3 characters split the other 30.000 gp of loot is better than everyone getting 15.000 gp?
There is some obvious adventure specific item that someone will keep even if the price is way above what the others get and you even allow him to keep it as a free loan as paying for the item will cripple the character defenses or offense in other fields, but there is always some space to make allowances for those items.
What we want to avoid is the idea:
"I am the wizard, all arcane scrolls, wands, staves and spellbook are mine, then we split equally or roll dice for the protection items."
or
"You are the rogue, we have found n a +2 greatsword, several divine scrolls that go to the cleric, a wand that go to the wizard or to the bard, you get the 300 gp in cash we have found." then, next time "A ring of protection +2 and a cloak +3, the cloak obviously go to the fighter, if he get dominated we are in deep guano, you, rogue, can get the old +2 cloak from him, a nice upgrade, don't you think? The ring to the wizard, he has the worst AC, the wizard +1 ring go to the bard as he has none."
If you divide the loot on "usefulness" and "ability to use" it often end that way. Someone get "first share" most of the time and someone get the discarded stuff.
Loot is often unbalanced by its nature, generally the best loot in a module of an AP is the gear of the main BEEG. If it is a big bruiser there are good chances that you get a suit of items that will help the party martials and o little for the others, if he is a cleric you get a suit of gear appropriate for a divine caster, if he is a arcane spellcaster you get a suit of gear appropriate for a spellcaster and so on.
Waiting until you meed a BEEG that share your class to get appropriate gear isn't nice.
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Dropped loot is always going to average at least a grade lower then a PC of the same level could have. it's the wealth discrepancy between PC and NPC.
So, yeah, you really are intended to buy better gear then you get off of drops. If not, then you have to rely on buffs to get the same.
==Aelryinth
BEEGs are generally several levels above you, so there is a balance. It is more that when we are not speaking of deflection/resistance items and stat boosting items often the NPC don't drop what you want but instead what is useful for them.
If the BEEG drop a bastard sword of awesomeness and you are geared to sue a scimitar it has a limited usefulness.
I can't speak for Carion Crown but all the APs I've run and played have been tight on treasure in books 1 and 2 then dumps a load of treasure in book 3. So in first two books you really need to find any loot that you can.
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On the other hand, I'm running a third party adventure where the group looted a Robe of Eyes while only 4th level. 120,000gp on a single item nobody wanted. They were going to sell it for 60,000 and split it 5 ways, but even then, they each would have gotten 12,000gp which is DOUBLE their entire WBL allotment, and they all have other loot they've found too.
I choked when I saw the price of that, and quickly edited it to a Robe of Useful Items. But I told them about it and everyone had a good laugh.
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welcome to 1E style magic item hauls.
Still remember that 1-3rd level adventure at the town just south of waterdeep, where you can come out with a Stone controlling earth elementals, and a mostly-used Helm of Brilliance. Not bad for level 3 PC's!
==Aelryinth
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Some of all 4 reasons in my opinion.
Book 1 of CC was intentionally fairly poor loot wise.
Some of the stuff was difficult to find. Not just high perception DC, but you had to be looking in odd places.
Some of it sounds like build problems.
GM probably could be a bit more generous with hints and stuff.
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training was always an optional system. We rarely used it. But, you have to remember spending gold on training levels was actually a minor issue once you got past level 4 or so, because there was NOTHING else to spend your money on!
Sure, you had 'living expenses', but they were incredibly minor. Without magic shops, there was no place to spend your cash, so all you could do is hold onto it for a stronghold. You couldn't sell magic loot for basically anything, so it got the point that one of our party's Portable Holes had something like 120 +1 Weapons of various sorts in it towards the end of the campaign...
and at least a million in gold value, because we had nothing to spend the money on.
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Daggerford! that was the place.
==Aelryinth
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I can't speak for Carion Crown but all the APs I've run and played have been tight on treasure in books 1 and 2 then dumps a load of treasure in book 3. So in first two books you really need to find any loot that you can.
Book 1 of CC was intentionally fairly poor loot wise.
Just for the record:
my loot tracker say that in Carrion Crown 1 my group found 24.530,59 gp of equipment at sale price, The actual value against our WBL, considering the permanent items we kept was about 34.000 gp.About 8.500 gp for each character, well above standard WBL for level 4 characters.
I suspect that it feel tight because we all want a magical cloak, ring and weapon (or equivalent for your class), but a Ring of deflection +1 cost 2,000 gp, a Cloak of protection +1 another 2.0,00 a magical weapon 2.000 and some, a wand with a 1st level spell 750 and one with a 2nd level spell 4.500.
Add some masterwork equipment, mundane equipment, that CLW wand for the whole group, expendables and you see how you will never feel satisfied at low level.
Each member of my group, at the end of CC 1 had received 8.500 gp in loot and money, but as total equipment we had 2 magical weapons, 3 protective items plus several expendables and non magical equipment. perfectly right for our WBL and perfectly right for feeling under equipped.
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Each member of my group, at the end of CC 1 had received 8.500 gp in loot and money, but as total equipment we had 2 magical weapons, 3 protective items plus several expendables and non magical equipment. perfectly right for our WBL and perfectly right for feeling under equipped.
Exact opposite of my experience. I never saw the books myself, but the GM said he was surprised because we had found nearly everything and were way under WBL. To the point where he ended up adding some things because he didn't see how we could make it otherwise.
On the other hand, I'm running a third party adventure where the group looted a Robe of Eyes while only 4th level. 120,000gp on a single item nobody wanted. They were going to sell it for 60,000 and split it 5 ways, but even then, they each would have gotten 12,000gp which is DOUBLE their entire WBL allotment, and they all have other loot they've found too.
I choked when I saw the price of that, and quickly edited it to a Robe of Useful Items. But I told them about it and everyone had a good laugh.
Unchecked it gets hilarious rolling for loot.
A DM of mine died a little inside when a white gold ring with a sapphire on it dropped and no one bid for it save me. Enjoy your +1 weapons everyone else, this little feller just wants that shiny.
"And that, Children, is how your Grandfather managed to stay alive since level 4."
Yeah, it wasn't "rolled". It was added by the author who wrote the adventure and put the item in the dungeon. Maybe HE rolled it randomly, but when you're sitting at a word processor writing a module to sell to the public, instead of GMing at a live gaming table, you have a chance to alter the unrealistic rolls, and it seems you might be obligated to do so.
At least, it seems that way to me.