Addesso |
One of Bikendi's powers is: "During your turn, discard a card to examine the top card of your location deck. ..."
Because it does not say "may discard" (the wording on Alahazra's card, and practically every other power that costs a card), this power MUST be used every turn, correct? So basically he's a time bomb, and if you don't win before he runs out of cards, you don't get his boon reward?
And I'll be honest, I had to read this thrice to realize that when he does run out of cards, the possessed character doesn't die. =/
Irgy |
Powers are optional to use. Even though they didn't say "you may", they do say "[discard a card] to [do something]". There's a sense of causality in the "to" between the discard and the examining, which would be meaningless if it was forced.
If they wanted to force you to do it, they surely would have said something more like:
"[at a specific point in your turn], you must discard a card. Then examine the top card of your location deck."
Dave Riley |
It can be a bit hit or miss with the wording. The two powers I can think of that are mandatory belong to Sajan and WotR Seelah.
Sajan's Drunken Master says "At the start of your turn, you must draw one card." (I think the "must" was errata)
Seelah's power says "When you acquire a card with the corrupted trait, bury it."
Seelah's might not have a must because it's a reactive power. Either way, it's definitely not optional. But yeah: I treat all powers as opt-in unless explicitly told otherwise.
skizzerz |
Bikendi's power is optional.
Each character has powers you can use to affect the game. Any paragraph in the Powers section of a character card that doesn't involve playing a card for a particular effect is a mandatory effect that always happens whenever the effect is appropriate.
Bikendi's power involves you playing a card for a particular effect (namely, you discard a card to to examine stuff). As a result, it is not a mandatory action. The powers Dave quoted above do not involve you playing cards for particular effects, and as such are mandatory actions.
Note: That text in the WotR rulebook was ported over from the Playing Cards section and isn't present in the character section of the S&S rulebook. However the original rule it was copied from (Playing Cards) still has it (S&S p9), so you can refer to there if you need to physically read the rule. At any rate, you should most certainly play as if that rule existed in S&S.
Longshot11 |
Bikendi's power involves you playing a card for a particular effect (namely, you discard a card to to examine stuff). As a result, it is not a mandatory action.
I'm of the opinion that Bikendi's power should be optional, however, I can't agree that discarding a card for his power is "playing a card", as you're not discarding the card as part of a cost to activate its own powers; it's just a cost that you pay to activate Bikendi's power.
Addesso |
Bikendi's power is optional.
WotR Rulebook, p19 wrote:Each character has powers you can use to affect the game. Any paragraph in the Powers section of a character card that doesn't involve playing a card for a particular effect is a mandatory effect that always happens whenever the effect is appropriate.Bikendi's power involves you playing a card for a particular effect (namely, you discard a card to to examine stuff). As a result, it is not a mandatory action. The powers Dave quoted above do not involve you playing cards for particular effects, and as such are mandatory actions.
Note: That text in the WotR rulebook was ported over from the Playing Cards section and isn't present in the character section of the S&S rulebook. However the original rule it was copied from (Playing Cards) still has it (S&S p9), so you can refer to there if you need to physically read the rule. At any rate, you should most certainly play as if that rule existed in S&S.
Ah that's too bad. Great power, but would have been an interesting mechanic to introduce. Hopefully something like that in the future? (Ended up playing like it was mandatory just for added challenge. Once my party acquired their role cards, the difficulty eased up quite a bit through A4.)
skizzerz |
skizzerz wrote:Bikendi's power involves you playing a card for a particular effect (namely, you discard a card to to examine stuff). As a result, it is not a mandatory action.I'm of the opinion that Bikendi's power should be optional, however, I can't agree that discarding a card for his power is "playing a card", as you're not discarding the card as part of a cost to activate its own powers; it's just a cost that you pay to activate Bikendi's power.
From a technical/pedantic standpoint, you are correct -- discarding a card to use a character power is not playing the card. However, the rule is a direct copy/paste from the cards section and seems to have been not edited to actually fit the whole character power concept. Even so, the intent behind the copy/paste is quite clear that it is clarifying that character powers that walk like optional card powers and quack like optional card powers are indeed ducks optional powers. Nobody would argue that "Discard this card to explore again" on a blessing is a mandatory action if you happen to have a blessing card in your hand, the same is true for character powers that say "Discard a card to do blah" (or reveal, or recharge, or whatever).
Frencois |
Héhé I did read your posts with interest but in fact I'm not so sure it should be optional after re-reading the card (as Mike usually says, it's not the designer's intention that counts, but the final wording).
Tinking it over, it's tricky.
Until now I thought that:
- On a card (including character card), if a paragraph starts directly by a verb like Reveal, Discard, Bury... then I should consider that there is an underlying [You may] that should be added before the verb.
- On the opposite, if the paragraph starts by a clear mention of a step (like "At the sart of your turn, do...") or a clear mention of a time condition ("When that happen, do..."), then there is no underlying "may" and it's mandatory.
Here we have a "During your turn, do...".
One can argue like Hawk that this is not a clear mention of step or precise timely condition.
But IMHO I could argue that this is a timely condition ("During your turn" = "Chose a step in your turn, and during that step do... ")
The more I see it, by rule (not intention) Bikendi's discard is mandatory and we played it right...
Waiting for Mike...
Andrew L Klein |
Not even by rule though Frencois. Cards have no memories. You can't pick a step because as soon as you leave your current step, the powers forgets you ever picked one.
By rule and sense, it is not mandatory. If they wanted it mandatory, it needs a huge text change. "During your turn" does not give a clear time of anything, it's a wide window that with memoryless cards couldn't work as a forced action without blatant clarification on the card that it is not optional.
skizzerz |
The timing restriction doesn't make it any less optional, and is indeed not the differentiating factor between optional powers and mandatory actions. Instead, look for the word "to" -- you are discarding a card during your turn to do something; that makes it fit with the template of it being a power fitting the intent of the definition in the rulebook (doing something for a particular effect). If it was a mandatory action, that word would not be there, it'd be "and" instead. For example: "At the start of your turn, discard a card and examine the top card of your location deck."
NyteJKL |
Related to this topic, my family and I just reached WotR AD4-4 which involves the Fulsome Queen cohort. Based on comments above, I would take it that her power is not optional and must trigger as specified? Her power reads:
At the start of your turn, reveal this card and examine the top 3 cards of your location deck... (and so on)
Dave Riley |
We didn't think to play it that way, but I suspect it's because it's "discard a card AND examine the..." instead of "discard a card TO examine..." To implies the choice, And suggests both actions are mandatory?
I guess you need to think of it like a barrier or monster who clings to your character, the Bloodbugs and Man Overboards! of the world that start "At the start of your turn, suceed at a Constitution/Fortitude..." etc. Without any other conditional instructions, "At the start" is like saying "When you move," it's something you gotta do once that phase comes around.
skizzerz |
We didn't think to play it that way, but I suspect it's because it's "discard a card AND examine the..." instead of "discard a card TO examine..." To implies the choice, And suggests both actions are mandatory?
I guess you need to think of it like a barrier or monster who clings to your character, the Bloodbugs and Man Overboards! of the world that start "At the start of your turn, suceed at a Constitution/Fortitude..." etc. Without any other conditional instructions, "At the start" is like saying "When you move," it's something you gotta do once that phase comes around.
Yep, it's because of the "and" and letting you know when the power trips. The most relevant rulebook quote doesn't really cover this situation (so business as usual there), but this isn't a typical power because you are not playing the card for an effect. Playing a card for an effect requires there to be causality between the clauses, e.g. the word "to". Since this lacks that, it doesn't fit the strict definition of a power, leaving "mandatory action" as the only remaining possibility. There is more nuance there that the rulebook simply doesn't cover at all, but it's clear enough (for me) that by using "and" and removing the causality means it isn't an optional power you can choose to use.