Exciting Cleric!


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


So I know that a lot of people feel that the Cleric is arguably the most powerful class in the game, and that is valid. My question is what could possibly be done to make them a little less "boring"? In my group we don't play them as a "healbot" so that is not the issue. It is lack of options/realisticaly playable Archtypes( IE: ones that don't take away one of your Domains or reduce your spell casting)/ New abilities at level gains other then a increases to Channel Energy total.


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It might take away a domain, but the Evangelist gets bardic performance. That opens up all kinds of rp stuff, which is what can make anything exciting to play, really. Maybe a combat maneuver cleric of some kind?


Not a bad idea Azten, however combat maneuver builds can be somewhat feat intensive and Clerics dont get bonus feats and from what Ive seen/heard they need every feat they get.


Firstly - the cleric is NO WAY NEAR being the most powerful!! But I do agree it is one of (if not the most) boring!

I did have an idea regarding trying to get some mileage out of the Ecclesitheurge (a tragic archetype that had so much potential but falls short IMO)..

A scribe scroll based Ecclesitheurge build.....

Most cleric deities have 4-5 domains and 4-5 subdomains - with the associated differing domain spells and the ECC can rotate through these.

Now if you got your UMD up to a good level (traits, feats, CHA, equipment, skill ranks), you could go through these fairly easily scribing scrolls as you went, giving you a good increase in the spells available to you.

Yes you have a DC 20 + CL to pass but its extremely do-able, especially considering you get a further +2 on your check if you have attempted it with the same item before.

You can potentially make it less of a burden feat/trait wise by making one of your domains always Glory (to get the CHA bonus) but this means restricting your deity choice or going cleric of a concept.

All going well you can also start talking to wizards and druids to start scribing even more scrolls with useful spells....

Very niche.... but potentially quite useful.....

Scarab Sages

It depends on which feats/maneuver you go with. Dirty Fighting makes maneuvers viable without needing the full improved/greater chain, and all of the great cleric attack buff spells also apply to maneuvers.

They won't be as good at it as a fighter, barbarian, or monk, but they can be decent at them while also being able to offer full casting.


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They aren't as feat-intensive if you use a reach weapon. Reach Evangalists are the standard for the archetype for a reason.


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Play a goblin. That always seems to make my characters my exciting. XD


What do you think about changing the base Cleric as follows....

4 skill points per level
free scribe scroll at 1st level
only one Domain

everything else stays as is

Scarab Sages

You can already get free scribe scroll at 1st level with the Rune Domain. That leaves 2 extra skill points per level vs losing one domain. I don't think it's worth it.


There's a monster summoning cleric archetype I really like in the Monster Summoner's Handbook. I think that would make clerics less boring.

Dark Archive

VonDien wrote:

What do you think about changing the base Cleric as follows....

4 skill points per level
free scribe scroll at 1st level
only one Domain

everything else stays as is

4 Skills per level fixes by biggest pet peeve with class design in general, and I would adore this.

Scribe Scroll is a useful feat, I don't have much experience with 3/P crafting, but it seems like a good way to get early healing consumables. What I have to wonder is what would replace it in PFS.

Not a big fan. Partially because it cuts down in variety (Diety/Domain flavor is the biggest draw to the class for me) but mostly because it would cause some really strange interactions with archetypes.

Good start, though. I would play this over a Core Cleric, if nothing else.


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Play a Shaman (aka A More Interesting Cleric) instead!


Anzyr wrote:
Play a Shaman (aka A More Interesting Cleric) instead!

The Shaman's spell list is missing some important spells that pretty much only the cleric offers at an appropriate class level. Not one of the spirits fills the real role of the Cleric. Every spirit at once doesn't fill the real role of the Cleric.

If you aren't providing condition removal you may as well be a magus or oracle.


Atarlost wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Play a Shaman (aka A More Interesting Cleric) instead!

The Shaman's spell list is missing some important spells that pretty much only the cleric offers at an appropriate class level. Not one of the spirits fills the real role of the Cleric. Every spirit at once doesn't fill the real role of the Cleric.

If you aren't providing condition removal you may as well be a magus or oracle.

Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc Favored Class Bonus has you covered in conjunction with the Life Spirit, the delay is pretty minor. Rob the Cleric List to your hearts content, before mugging the Sorcerer/Wizard List. What condition are you concerned about precisely? Remove Fear/Paralysis/Poison*/Blindness/Deafness/Curse/Disease are all available at the same level as a Cleric.

*With Life Spirit.


Silver Surfer wrote:
Firstly - the cleric is NO WAY NEAR being the most powerful!! But I do agree it is one of (if not the most) boring!

It is a 9 level caster that doesn't have any problems with armor, and it also has enough melee capabilities that it doesn't need to feel threatened if enemies get in close. It also has two good saves (fort and will- the really important ones). It also has the ability to pick anythign from its spell list, without a need to have it as a spell learned or put it into a spell book.

While not the most powerful, it is nice, sturdy, adn dependable. It is basically the AK-47 of classes. Sure, there are some RPGs and missiles and sniper rifles out there... but for general use, it is fantastic for its role and doesn't have any glaring weaknesses.


I alaways get a cleric of feather domain- THE animal add a lof of combat stuff especially when buffed.
Evengalist feather can really be useful.


lemeres wrote:
Silver Surfer wrote:
Firstly - the cleric is NO WAY NEAR being the most powerful!! But I do agree it is one of (if not the most) boring!

It is a 9 level caster that doesn't have any problems with armor, and it also has enough melee capabilities that it doesn't need to feel threatened if enemies get in close. It also has two good saves (fort and will- the really important ones). It also has the ability to pick anythign from its spell list, without a need to have it as a spell learned or put it into a spell book.

While not the most powerful, it is nice, sturdy, adn dependable. It is basically the AK-47 of classes. Sure, there are some RPGs and missiles and sniper rifles out there... but for general use, it is fantastic for its role and doesn't have any glaring weaknesses.

Plus, it's pretty GM-proof. It's fairly easy to get a difficult to remove holy symbol. Without bending the rules, your GM can't forbid you access to most spells on your list, unlike the Wizard, where "they don't sell this scroll here" is a perfectly valid excuse. It has spells in armor, a supernatural ability, mundane ability to bash face, and probably a few spell-like abilities from domains. Something that will prevent you from doing anything at all will almost certainly hurt the rest of your party as well. As mentioned by Lemeres, it has the 2 most important saves. It's not weirdly restricted like Druid, but it gets fast spell progression like Druid and Wizard. Oh, and everybody spends so much time obsessing over if the Paladin should fall that they pay no attention to the Cleric falling.


My Self wrote:
Plus, it's pretty GM-proof. It's fairly easy to get a difficult to remove holy symbol. Without bending the rules, your GM can't forbid you access to most spells on your list, unlike the Wizard, where "they don't sell this scroll here" is a perfectly valid excuse. It has spells in armor, a supernatural ability, mundane ability to bash face, and probably a few spell-like abilities from domains. Something that will prevent you from doing anything at all will almost certainly hurt the rest of your party as well. As mentioned by Lemeres, it has the 2 most important saves. It's not weirdly restricted like Druid, but it gets fast spell progression like Druid and Wizard. Oh, and everybody spends so much time obsessing over if the Paladin should fall that they pay no attention to the Cleric falling.

Because it never has much ambiguity- either you

1. slowly moved two alignment steps (in which case, you should have gotten the hint after the first step- also, you can move in that one step without an atonement spell) so it is obviously the player's fault,
2 the GM just randomly threw you 2 alignment steps, in which case it is obviously the GM's fault.

Little room for argument, really. Oh, I suppose people might try to go with a more moderate cleric (LN for a LG god), but that seems more like their own responsibility for removing their buffer. Generally, I would imagine you don't act too far outside of your god's alignment anyway.


Anzyr wrote:


Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc Favored Class Bonus has you covered in conjunction with the Life Spirit, the delay is pretty minor. Rob the Cleric List to your hearts content, before mugging the Sorcerer/Wizard List. What condition are you concerned about precisely? Remove Fear/Paralysis/Poison*/Blindness/Deafness/Curse/Disease are all available at the same level as a Cleric.

*With Life Spirit.

Prob is with the FCB is that it restricts you race wise..... an Aasimar cleric can start things with a +3WIS,+3 CHA and +1INT stat bonus. Dwarf also gets great benefits. And in basic terms stops you getting your +1hp/skill point bonus. Clerics have a much more flexible time picking races. Also it restricts your access to prestige classes as you have to give up the FCB.

Regarding the cleric spell list:

1) You have to wait till 3rd level
2) Any spell has to be 1 level lower than you can cast
3) Due to the fairly terrible nature of the basic shaman list, there are many holes that need plugging - more than is covered by the FCB.
4) Due to greater quality and quantity of the cleric list and the fact that it is growing constantly and that the cleric will always know all of them.... this disparity will only grow over time.

But yes overall I am in complete agreement, if you want an OP divine caster... play a Shaman!... 9th level casting, 3/4 BAB, armour, hexes...... it just goes on and on!!


w.r.t the OP; if you find the cleric's lack of class features boring, find a prestige class and aim for it. There aren't as many as in 3.x but they do exist.

That leaves you with half a dozen or so levels with less features, but levels 3, 5 & 7 give you new spell levels (which always expands your options noticeably), and levels 6 & 8 may give you significant class features.


avr wrote:

w.r.t the OP; if you find the cleric's lack of class features boring, find a prestige class and aim for it. There aren't as many as in 3.x but they do exist.

That leaves you with half a dozen or so levels with less features, but levels 3, 5 & 7 give you new spell levels (which always expands your options noticeably), and levels 6 & 8 may give you significant class features.

Exalted, Evangelist and Veiled Illusionist are all solid options


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I think that's a little pitiful that it is a challenge to make an "exciting" Cleric. If you modify the table to be more accurate,(since Channel Energy can be listed as a scaling ability like the Paladin's) it would look something like this:

1. Channel Energy, Domains, Spontaneous Casting
2.
3.
4.
5.
6. Maybe Domain Ability
7.
8. Maybe Domain Ability
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20. Maybe Domain Ability

I left out Aura and Orisons on purpose. They're not awfully special.

No official capstone, barely anything to "let go of" for archetypes, and incredibly situational Domain abilities. Some Domains are pretty solid, like Travel and Luck. But out of like 50 Domains/Subdomains, that's not saying much. Also out of all characters I have made, my Clerics suffer the most from 2+ Skills per level. There were times where I would make it to level 5 without any ranks into Knowledge Religion, Planes, or Spellcraft. Luckily, I didn't encounter a Chase Scene on some of them.


Anzyr wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Play a Shaman (aka A More Interesting Cleric) instead!

The Shaman's spell list is missing some important spells that pretty much only the cleric offers at an appropriate class level. Not one of the spirits fills the real role of the Cleric. Every spirit at once doesn't fill the real role of the Cleric.

If you aren't providing condition removal you may as well be a magus or oracle.

Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc Favored Class Bonus has you covered in conjunction with the Life Spirit, the delay is pretty minor. Rob the Cleric List to your hearts content, before mugging the Sorcerer/Wizard List. What condition are you concerned about precisely? Remove Fear/Paralysis/Poison*/Blindness/Deafness/Curse/Disease are all available at the same level as a Cleric.

*With Life Spirit.

And rob some of the Druid spells too!

I am going to shamelessly do so with my next Human Shaman character.

Silver Surfer wrote:
But yes overall I am in complete agreement, if you want an OP divine caster... play a Shaman!... 9th level casting, 3/4 BAB, armour, hexes...... it just goes on and on!!

Yup! The Spirit and Wandering Spirit closely resemble the 2 Domains a Cleric receives. However, the Wandering Spirit doesn't tie you down at all, unless you choose to use the same Spirit of course.

Dark Archive

Zenogu wrote:

I think that's a little pitiful that it is a challenge to make an "exciting" Cleric. If you modify the table to be more accurate,(since Channel Energy can be listed as a scaling ability like the Paladin's) it would look something like...

1. Channel Energy, Domains, Spontaneous Casting
6. Maybe Domain Ability
8. Maybe Domain Ability
20. Maybe Domain Ability

I left out Aura and Orisons on purpose. They're not awfully special.

I think the growth of the Cleric is a bit closer to this:

1. Channel Energy, Domains, Spontaneous Casting
2.
3. New spell level
4.
5. New spell level
6. Maybe Domain Ability
7. New spell level
8. Maybe Domain Ability
9. New spell level
10.
11. New spell level
12.
13. [Spell Level Intensifies]
14.
15. New spell level
16.
17. New spell level
18.
19. Miracle & Friends
20. Maybe Domain Ability

To be honest, the Cleric gains spikes in power that rival and often surpass the abilities of classes. Even looking at their most commonly prepared spells and counting them as extra 1/day abilities is a pretty good deal, never mind the flexibility that comes with prepared casting and Pocket Cures.

Nothing feels quite as rewarding as learning a new level of spells for your dedicated caster. Well, except Aspect. Aspect rules.


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Rosc wrote:
Zenogu wrote:

I think that's a little pitiful that it is a challenge to make an "exciting" Cleric. If you modify the table to be more accurate,(since Channel Energy can be listed as a scaling ability like the Paladin's) it would look something like...

1. Channel Energy, Domains, Spontaneous Casting
6. Maybe Domain Ability
8. Maybe Domain Ability
20. Maybe Domain Ability

I left out Aura and Orisons on purpose. They're not awfully special.

I think the growth of the Cleric is a bit closer to this:

1. Channel Energy, Domains, Spontaneous Casting
2.
3. New spell level
4.
5. New spell level
6. Maybe Domain Ability
7. New spell level
8. Maybe Domain Ability
9. New spell level
10.
11. New spell level
12.
13. [Spell Level Intensifies]
14.
15. New spell level
16.
17. New spell level
18.
19. Miracle & Friends
20. Maybe Domain Ability

To be honest, the Cleric gains spikes in power that rival and often surpass the abilities of classes. Even looking at their most commonly prepared spells and counting them as extra 1/day abilities is a pretty good deal, never mind the flexibility that comes with prepared casting and Pocket Cures.

Nothing feels quite as rewarding as learning a new level of spells for your dedicated caster. Well, except Aspect. Aspect rules.

Compare to an Oracle

1. Revelation, Curse
2.
3. Revelation
4. New spell level
5. New curse bonus
6. New spell level
7. Revelation
8. New spell level
9.
10. New spell level, New curse bonus
11. Revelation
12. New spell level
13.
14. New spell level
15. Revelation, New curse bonus
16. New spell level
17.
18. New spell level
19. Revelation
20. Final Revelation

Can you see why cleric might seem boring by comparison?


Also, the only thing a Cleric looks forward to on even-numbered levels is maybe his 1st domain ability increases. Such as Touch of Good from the Good Domain. That's it. Or an extra use per day of the higher level domain ability.

Channel Energy, New Spell levels, and Feats all come at odd level intervals.

Dark Archive

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Scythia wrote:
Can you see why cleric might seem boring by comparison?

Kind of? If you add up both domains, the total number of abilities isn't that different from the number of revelations that an Oracle picks up over their career. Domains can be a bit more front loaded, but they still give something to look forward to. Curse is the tiebreaker, assuming you ignore the Cleric's built in Channel Energy. Yes, some Oracles can get that, but it costs you a revelation. Clerics, meanwhile, channel without giving anything up. Well, except that enviable SADness. But we're talking interesting mechanics, not optimization.

I think the biggest problem is that the Cleric's amazing list of features doesn't translate all that well to the core book's class table, at least visually. What you see is 3 abilities at first level and a whole lot of blank space, but what you get is access to every spell possible in a huge and ever growing list and a collection of thematic powers tied to your diety that will make sure you'll rarely be without something to do during the first 10 levels. And after that point raw spell casting gives you plenty of fun toys.


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The thing that makes playing a cleric boring is that all you're ever doing is improving on what you have. You get pretty much everything you're GOING to get at level 1.

This is old school D&D.

As a result the ONLY thing that differentiates you from other clerics is the feats, skills, traits and domains you focus on. This in my opinion is where fluff comes in.

If you're working with Golarion, let's look at Erastil:

First off, alignment. Erastil's cleric alignments on the Pathfinder wiki are listed as LG, LN, or NG. Right there you've got pious champions of good, stoic law-touters who care nothing for good and evil and folks who use any means at their disposal, lawful or not, to promote the general good.

Pretty diverse.

Now on to Domains. Animal, Community, Good, Law and Plant. That's 10 possible combos, 10 different clerics. A NG Animal/Plant cleric of Erastil is nearly a druid; a LG Good/Law cleric is practically a paladin.

Take all the above a step further.

Looking at the fluff on the wiki there's no mention of a strict hierarchy or organization for the clergy. I take this to mean that each church or shrine is roughly a reflection of the clergy who frequent it. So a NG Animal/Plant cleric might be of a sort of druidic sect of primitives while the LG Good/Law cleric might be a soldier in a divine army.

I think then for me the only thing that makes clerics interesting is diversity. Granted, every class has this built in and the cleric has less archetypes to reflect this diversity, but still there's a certain amount of fun I get from creating the fluff around my clerics.


I do wish domains actually did something meaningful.

To be honest, I suggest you use Rite Publishing's Divine Channeller class.


The cleric is a very useful chassis of a class. You get good saves, decent hp, decent attack bonus, spells, and some extra abilities. Using just the stuff every cleric gets, however, will be little enough to write home about. Sure, low level lets you wield a mace or something similar, but that won't be impressive. What gets you almost all your power as a cleric is the stuff you get from domains and feats. Thus, you need to put these, and your stats, focused on doing something spectacularly well. Only then will you be able to hold your own within a party of other characters. Whether as a blaster, a summoner, a reach combatant, this remains true, and you are severely MAD through it all. The only other roles available to you outside this logic are buffing and healing.


So what do we do to "fix" the Cleric and make them a little less boring? Because when compaired to Oracles and Shaman I just don't think Clerics stack up. NOT in terms of raw power but in terms of features and flavor and things to look forward to at each level.


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jeremiah dodson 812 wrote:
So what do we do to "fix" the Cleric and make them a little less boring? Because when compaired to Oracles and Shaman I just don't think Clerics stack up. NOT in terms of raw power but in terms of features and flavor and things to look forward to at each level.

Scrap the Domain Abilities that are written as is, and give them a wider variety of options that are similar to Rage Powers/Talents. They would have restrictions based on level and Domains chosen. Have them acquired at even levels, of course.

Yeah, that's a ton of paperwork and word count, but the Cleric already takes up the most pages in the CRB as it stands. Somehow, they still manage to be boorish.

Liberty's Edge

I always give Clerics (and to a lesser extent divine casters in general) options to more closely match their deity. For example, it never made sense to me that clerics of a god of thieves would have no thieving skills... so I'd give them the choice to drop a domain to get thieving abilities (e.g. trapfinding, disable/stealth/etc as class skills). Similarly, clerics of the god of wizardry could have an option to have an arcane spellbook and use some of their domain spell slots for arcane spells. Et cetera.

Shadow Lodge

The Non-Generic Cleric.


CBDunkerson wrote:
I always give Clerics (and to a lesser extent divine casters in general) options to more closely match their deity. For example, it never made sense to me that clerics of a god of thieves would have no thieving skills... so I'd give them the choice to drop a domain to get thieving abilities (e.g. trapfinding, disable/stealth/etc as class skills). Similarly, clerics of the god of wizardry could have an option to have an arcane spellbook and use some of their domain spell slots for arcane spells. Et cetera.

That's a really generous idea! I like it.

Personally, I kind of want to see Clerics have their own unique ability that makes them separate. Something that an archetype from another class would have a hard time stealing (but not impossible).


Its poorly designed... end of.

3.5 had a much better approach to clerics and PF could learn a lot from that. DMM for all the cries from Pathfinder people that it was OP, was a very good way to make use of what is a pretty crappy ability ie) turning/channeling and wasnt as OP as people made out (feats had to be invested... etc) ....

Just doing a proper job with domains in the first place would have been great!!

Each domain should offer:

a) A bonus feat (Cleric is feat starved)

b)Additional skills / bonuses to existing skills (Cleric is skill starved)

c)A domain slot

d)More non-cleric spells as domain spells

e) Abilities at 1st, 6th, 12th, 20th (cleric cant have both capstones)


This is how I would do it:

Spontaneous Domain Casting (Ex):
Choose one of the cleric's chosen domains. The cleric may "lose" any prepared spell that is not an orison to spontaneously cast any spell from this domain of the same level or lower.

The cleric loses the ability to spontaneously cast "cure" or "inflict" spells from his cleric class if he chooses this option. Instead, the cleric may prepare "cure" spells (if he's good) or "inflict" spells (if he's evil) in his domain slots. The cleric chooses whether he wants to prepare cure or inflict spells in this way if he's neutral, although once the choice is made, it cannot be changed.

This ability counts as "Spontaneous Casting (Ex)" for all prerequisites. If an archetype modifies Spontaneous Casting, it modifies this ability instead.


Felyndiira wrote:

This is how I would do it:

Spontaneous Domain Casting (Ex):
Choose one of the cleric's chosen domains. The cleric may "lose" any prepared spell that is not an orison to spontaneously cast any spell from this domain of the same level or lower.

The cleric loses the ability to spontaneously cast "cure" or "inflict" spells from his cleric class if he chooses this option. Instead, the cleric may prepare "cure" spells (if he's good) or "inflict" spells (if he's evil) in his domain slots. The cleric chooses whether he wants to prepare cure or inflict spells in this way if he's neutral, although once the choice is made, it cannot be changed.

This ability counts as "Spontaneous Casting (Ex)" for all prerequisites. If an archetype modifies Spontaneous Casting, it modifies this ability instead.

Yup. Straight out of the Shaman's Spirit Magic ability. I was thinking of implementing it as well.


I woulďike to see the flavor (not the uneven mechanics) of 2nd Edition Specialty Priests and Spheres recaptured. Trim the various divine spell lists down to a Core Divine spell list, and change Domains, Mysteries, and Spirits to include small (but more than 1 spell per level) lists of relevant spells, and in the process, also change Domains to be like mini-Mysteries, of which a non-archetyped Cleric gets 3. Curing/Positive Energy Channeling and Infliction/Negative Energy Channeling get taken out of the Cleric's core progression and are converted into Domains (so if you take 1 of these and 2 other Domains, you get something like a current rules Cleric, but with more options).

The 6/9 and 4/9 spellcasters would need options as well, but rather than having separate Cleric Domains and Paladin Domains like Sorcerer and Bloodrager Domains having the same names, they would use the same Domains, which would have options for 9/9, 6/9, and 4/9.

After all that, do something analogous for the arcane casters.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I think it would be neat if clerics got special ways to use their Channel Energy ability at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18. Some of these special abilities would be linked to their domains.

Domains would gain abilities at 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20.

Also, make Channel Energy less feat dependent. Selective Channel should just be a thing, as well Command Undead and Turn Undead. Not feats.


Alternatively, do something like Oracle, but modified to support 3 Domains at once. So at level 1, you get the starting abilities for each Domain (sort of a Domain Arcana and a 1st level Domain power, analogous to a Sorcerer Bloodline or Wizard Arcane School, but toned down because you get 3 of them instead of just 1); decompress to 2 levels or so if it is too crowded at 1st level. Then, every Xn + Y levels (n = your class level, and X and Y are constants that must be determined during design and balance testing), you get to pick a major Domain feature (some of which have level prerequisites, just like Oracle Revelations) from any of your Domains (but just 1 at a time). Interleaved with this, every Zn + W levels (see above, but Z and W can be different from X and Y), you get minor upgrades from all 3 of your Domains. Remember that I said above that Curing/Positive Energy Channeling and its mirror image would be Domains -- hence the 3 Domains instead of 2.

* * * * * * * *

Of course, if you REALLY want to remake Cleric right, it needs a remix with Warpriest and Inquisitor, generating a d6, 1/2 BAB, 9/9 spellcasting Priest class; a d8, 3/4 BAB, 6/9 spellcasting semi-martial Cleric class that is a blend of the Inquisitor and Warpriest chasses; and an Inquisitor prestige class (I love the Inquisitor base class chassis, but the Inquisitor roleplaying concept belongs on a prestige class).

Then do something similar for Druid and Hunter.

But now we're getting into Pathfinder 2.0 territory.

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